Is it ethical that Upwork removes client feedback?

[dawegener]

First time really REALLY bad experience with an upwork freelancer, after years of hiring people for numerous projects.

In doing the project post-mortem, I realized that the freelancer has no really bad feedback, but does have feedback removed on numerous projects.

This is a HUGE red flag.  But it's neither obvious nor honest, in my opinion.

If a client leaves bad feedback, it is (in my opinion) both dishonest and bad faith for that feedback to be removed, as it is a primary function used in evaluation of potential hires.

Personally, I intend to get the money back (around $1k), not just for the amount, but for the principle of the thing. If in fact Upwork is hiding/removing feedback on clients without making it obvious, this is creating a bad-faith action against clients, as it prevents clients from actually leaving full feedback.

 I can't see this NOT being something Upwork can be litigated for, if they're WILLFULLY CHANGING the visible feedback of the freelancer. It is fundamentally a dishonest action.

Am I wrong?

[AveryO]

Hi David, 

I'm sorry to learn that you feel this way. Removing a contract's feedback to exercise more control over a Freelancer's Job Success Score (JSS) is one of the perks of the Top Rated program.  At least three months must pass and at least 10 new jobs on Upwork must be completed before they can submit another request. So please know, this is not something that happens often.

I appreciate your feedback about this feature, and I will make sure to share it with the team. 

[dawegener]

Thanks for your note on this.

It is fundamentally dishonest to the client for Upwork to actively manipulate feedback given by paying clients, as this is a crucial tool in used by virtually every client in the hiring process.

For example,  I was misled as to the capabilities of one such freelancer, and after reviewing his feedback (which contained several removed ratings but no reasons given), hired him for both consulting and work.

He turned out to be utterly incompetent, furthermore lied, damaged MY client's data, cost several thousand dollars in damages to my client and myself, and then when I left feedback, was able to have it removed?

Feedback IS THE ONLY RECOURSE, when the freelancer refuses to refund money.  THat's the ONLY option.. so when the freelancer lies, causes additional damages to the client's project, and then refuses to refund (I have demonstrable evidence to these facts), the feedback engine is the only recourse to stop this behavior.. I as a business owner OWE IT TO EVERY OTHER CLIENT to protect them from him.

In reviewing this later, I found that he has had numerous removals of feedback, but this basically means he's had much negative press, but has successfully managed to manipulate the system to have it hidden, so the potential client isn't made aware of potential issues. 

It is HIGHLY disconcerting to learn that Upwork manipulates feedback without recourse, misleading clients in such a way.

As a client, THE PRIMARY SOURCE OF INFORMATION ON A FREELANCER IS HIS FEEDBACK.

There is no way this is honest to the client base, nor is there any way in the US that this is protectable against litigation.  Upwork is allowing dishonest freelancers to lie to potential clients (or is doing it themselves on behalf of freelancers), and that's NOT a good thing.  I can assure you this process will eventually culminate in a legal case at some point, because you can't do this long-term without somebody getting burned enough that they're going to take it to court.

The fact that Upwork allows freelancers to have feedback removed is a fundamental breach of trust for clients.  I for example was never contacted regarding the feedback (it was accurate but damaging to him), and I am now out both hours of time and thousands of dollars.

Furthermore I am very confident it places Upwork at a litigation risk due to the fact that hiding potentially critical information from the potential client (without actively notifying them that data has been hidden) places the client at a financial risk (thereby openning Upwork to litigation).

Please explain to me where I'm incorrect.

I really want to know.  If you're not qualified to make an answer, pass this up the flag pole until you get one.. or have someone contact me directly.

The only potentially valid reasons I could  see for feedback removal is if there were threats, personal info, or demonstrably proven steps of attempted extortion (extortion by refund).   Apparently Upwrok allows any type of reason??   please clarify.

[aliansoftwarellc]

Dear @David,

I do also like to ask a question similar to @nicole that how did you find removed feedbacks on public profile of any freelancer?

Regarding your view where you see it as "Dishonest behavior of Upwork towards clients", I would like to add that as per my point of view it's a small effort of upwork towards the freelancers who won't be wrong always.

Many times it happens that client use to get extra work or willing to pay less and that's why sort of blackmailing freelancers with the "Sword of Feedback" that if freelancer doesn't agree with extravagent demands then clients may warn of giving negative feedback intentionally even after getting 100% work as agreed upon.

There's also an another situation like disputes: When client lost in dispute s/he might try to damage freelancer using feedback (just like a revenge of loosing dispute) irrespective of the fact that freelancer was right in his/her position and did complete work due to which s/he would have won the dispute.

Thus in many cases, freelancers use to get Intentionally negative feedback from some clients. The perk that Upwork offers is kind of little bit relief / heal against the above kind of wounds.

If Upwork doesn't offer any such perks then I would say Upwork must have to have some other mechanism to help freelancers against such misuse of feedback against them.

[gilbert-phyllis]

The feedback removal perk is available to Top Rated freelancers (those who continually maintain a JSS of 90 or higher for 13 of the previous 16 weeks, on a rolling basis, updated every two weeks). When a FL uses the perk, they must wait at least three months before using it again and meanwhile, must close at least 10 new projects before using it again. So, it's not available willy-nilly. Most FLs hoard it carefully and only use it when not doing so will endanger their TR status. And frankly, the power balance between client and FL is tilted in the client's favor -- this is inherent in FLing whether working on UW or another platform or in the b&m world -- and the fb removal perk is one of the few tools available that can level the field a bit.

When you see numerous instances of this feedback has been removed on a FL's job history, what you are seeing is the FL giving unhappy clients full refunds in order to have their fb removed. It's a red flag, as you now know, but not because of the fb removal perk which is hard-earned and sparingly used.

With $1,000 on the table, did you not consider pursuing arbitration? The $291 fee is non-refundable but if you won, you'd recover the entire project fee less the arbitration fee.

[mwiggenhorn]

Sadly, there are clients out there who are crazy, cheap, and troublesome, unlike the OP who seems like a great client.  There are freelancers who are less than adequate, which is why only Top Rated Freelancers are given the very limited ability to remove feedback.  Feedback is an important factor for a client to consider before retaining a freelancer and removed feedback can also be vital.  Phyllis has it absolutely right.

[nhansen]

I recently was hired for a fixed-price job. The client didn't say a single word about the schedule or deadlines for the project. I told him when I expected to be able to START the work as I was traveling and also was dealing with an emergency situation that came up unexpectedly.

Around the time I had told him I would be starting the work, he suddenly paid me $20 "for your time spent so far," told me that he was worried the (never communicated) deadline would not be met. I reached out and asked him what the deadline was because perhaps I COULD meet it if he told me what it was. He didn't respond so I ended the contract.

I got a bad rating from him, which affected my JSS. I found it quite unfair because HE failed to communicate any deadlines and then rated me badly on that metric. Not to mention I hadn't submitted any work for him to rate me on nor did I request the payment he made, which was not worth the damage to my reputation.

I didn't want to simply remove the feedback, but I read if I refunded the full amount I was paid, it would disappear entirely from my list of jobs. So I did this and it did. It does NOT appear on my job history.

So I am not sure why you say that if you refund the full amount it still appears on the profile as it didn't for me.  But if indeed it does in some cases, I would not say it necessarily is a red flag about the freelancer as the client set me up to fail on the job by not communicating what he needed even though I told him what I could deliver.

[dawegener]

Thx for thenote and your anecdotals.

I understand the issue as a freelancer - have done 'more than my share' of work, only to not be paid at the end and get shafted by a corrupt client.

No, I'm not that guy.. i've paid out around $80,000 in Upwork fees over a few years, ranging from webdev to hardware projects to application coding..

I don't take feedback lightly, but this clown deserved a low rating feedback, because he fundamentally misled both myself and MY client, costing us both hundreds or thousands.. 

What's worse: he refused to refund a single penny.

That's why I did the feedback.

The fact that Upwork removes the feedback without ever checking veracity, without giving me (the client) ANY recourse (the only real recourse I have is to dispute hours, which is generally impossible due to the fact that the idiot manually typed data instead of importing via xls, so technicallly he DID some work albeit the wrong way!)...

[marc_compte]

---

David W wrote:

Please explain to me where I'm incorrect.

I do think you are not seeing the entire picture. By reading your post one would think that at Upwork you can find top rated 5 stars freelancers who are actually not top rated and 1 star. That is false.

You do raise some valid and understandable concerns, but you invalidate yourself with one-sided accusations and by maximizing what is actually a tiny issue.

Upwork does not manipulate. The freelancer does not manipulate. They don't do so any more than a client, yourself, manipulates. It is not dishonest to hide a feedback review, not any more than a client posting a dishonest review. If you are going to throw accusations all around, this is how it's done properly.

Furthermore, for the reasons that have been explained to you already by other people in this thread it is not true that a TR freelancer may have numerous removals of feedback or that they had much negative press. That is an exageration you are doing in an attempt to validate your frustration and accusations. A freelancer can only remove 1 feedback every 10 jobs and 3 months. They need to be top rated, first. So there is no way a freelancer can remove any feedback at all if they have had much of their feedback negative.

Your concerns are valid, but I think many of the statements in your post are either false, an exageration or simply a manipulation of reality. This is not the same as saying that I believe you are lying. I don't believe you are. I believe you had very bad luck with a freelancer who appears to have made most of their clients happy, but not you.

[nhansen]

Removed feedback is not indicated in any way on the profile as far as I understand it. You may be confused by the fact that if the client fails to add any feedback, the job still appears on the profile. So maybe the freelancer had jobs where the client didn't give them any feedback, which may have nothing to do with the freelancer's performance. The client may no longer be using Upwork for example and failed to come leave any feedback when the job was ended.

[moonraker]

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Nicole H wrote:

Removed feedback is not indicated in any way on the profile as far as I understand it.

---

It is:

 

[dawegener]

1.  It is shown on the profile of the freelancer..

2. There is no given reason for removal.  That is why I believe it is dishonest.

It would be a different situation if the feedback removal had a reason shown (ie., "Feedback removed as it violates Upwork's policy for feedback", or "Feedback removed at client's request", or "Feedback removed at Freelancer's request")..   THAT would be honest.

The fact is that (in my particular situation) the freelancer has had a handful of removals.  Why? I don't know.   But what was NOT made clear is that freelancers can just willy-nilly get feedback removed if they aren't hhappy...

This particular situation allows someone who's competent to a point present themselves as a top-tiered expert.  The result is that they can probably fly along well with normal jobs in the field - resolving a good percentage of their clients' needs without concern (face it, 75-80% of the jobs hired for cna be done by someone with an average level of expertise).. But then when they hit that one or two jobs which require actual high-level competency, they fail.  

IF they're allowed to occasionally get a feedback removed that is due to their incompetency, they're going to be able to continue in this genre.. (which is what I expect is happening with the guy I mentioned- - because he simply refuses to recognize that he was actually incompetent at doing what he claimed to understand, so the likelihood is low that he'll consider his problem).    So the logical playout is that every 30-40 clients, he'll continue to hit a job that's well over his competency level, will botch it up (unless the client is able to recognize the issue earlier), and if he doesn't bow out early, he'll end up screwing another client out of money and time.. and the resulting feedback will be removed as well.. and the cycle will continue..

This is also why I (as a potential client) require a phone call with my potential hires, because it enables me to understand a bit of their competency, their ability to communicate, and their ability to understand the scope of the project (as I've communicated it).

I don't want to seem too dire, but i have literally just dropped hiring more Upwork in this particular area, purely as a result of this particular situation. The fact is that I as a client cannot any longer trust the feedback system, as I'm now being kept in the dark as to the true capability and issues of potential hires.

I understand that many folks who've answered this are doing so from the perspective of freelancers, and I appreciate your perspective. 

There are several accountability issues at stake here:

1. I can't really confirm that in fact you're doing the work in a timely manner (welcome to remote work, amirite?)   But that means if the freelancer is an idiot and simply doing everything the slow way, UNLESS I recognize that, I'm spending much more money than is necessary..  So I'm left wondering - is this guy really doing the work the fastest way, or is he sluffing off on me?

2. I'm a bit blind as to your true level of expertise.  So I have to guage my opinion by the ratings left by others for you.   So I have to be able to trust the system - that those who aren't happy with you have left some bad feedback (nad I have to be able to filter thru the BS and find the nugget of truth)..   Think eBay or AMazon - any idiot recognizes that not every person leaving feedback is in fulll control of their intellect.. So the reader filters thru feedback, reads the negatives to figure out if they're accurate or BS, and then makes an informed decision regarding the person/company...  Trust me, i've been there.. I've run ecommerce since 1994, before ebay and Amazon were a thing.. I've sold over $30M on those 2 platforms alone, and have dealt with ALL SORTS of feedback, all kinds of people, from geniuses to folks who need padded walls and body suits...

3.   Feedback is a 2-way street...

You might feel threatened that low feedback diminishes who you are, but if I the client no longer trust the system (because I now recognize that it is inherintly dishonest), I don't give a rat's pink rear HOW glowing the propaganda is for you - I simply don't believe it anymore.

I might be the guy who wasn't aware of the elephant in the room, but knowing that my feedback can be flat-out removed without any 'why' has single-handedly removed any confidence I hold in Upwork.  

When the showing of feedback is manipulated by Upwork, the "feedback" not actual feedback..

It's propaganda.

There is a real and substantive difference between the two.

For example, with eBay, if a seller gets bad feedback, he can get it removed, but only for a couple of VERY VERY good reasons (personal data, blatant attempts to force the client, or obscenity). And that is only a case-by-case basis, and only done when ebay reviews, reviews messaging, and makes a determination based on the facts of the case..

That is fundementally different than the Upwork action.

Upwork is stating here that they have a blanket policy allowing certain freelancers a 'get out of jail free' card on a regular basis. 

For any reason.  

No questions asked.

So as long as you hit certain criteria, you can get away with whatever you want on occasion..

**Edited for Community Guidelines**

Where am I wrong??

[dawegener]

Well color me surprised..

apparently even the DISCUSSION of the issue is now getting propagandized..

So i used an example in my previous post, which somebody decided to remove..

I'll try to avoid making it 'triggering' this time..

suppose someone were known to be a 'gold plated' philanthropist..  top tier.

but that somebody was also known to occasionally say.. harrass or assault someone of a different gender..

BUT, it was only occasional..  In fact, 98% of the time he donated to charities and was a stellar individual.

Would it be honest to have the victims of his assaults have their statements removed, because after all, 98% of the time he was really a great guy??

that's the honesty point.

We're off in propaganda land if we think it's ok to remove feedback occasionally because the feedback doesn't make the freelancer happy...

I can COMPLETELY understand feedback if it's obscene, contains doxxing info, or violates other standards.. but removing it because it contains factually correct but uncomfortable data is dishonest.

[melaniekhenson]

Never mind, I just repeated everything else everyone has said. 😂 (I know, I know. Reading is fundamental.)