Scam or just slow, I want a refund.

redbopeep · ‎04-04-2020

I'm frustrated. If you don't want a whiny long read, perhaps skip this, but I appreciate anyone who has had successes in getting a refund to reply.

I have had good luck with Upwork freelancers in the past so this one is difficult. I hired someone to combine information from 3 different sources -- two spreadsheets and a pdf. It's for an e-commerce site and it is a couple of thousand products needing updates or additions so not exactly an overnight turnaround job. I've done similar work myself for my site and I knew that it would have taken me between 20 and 30 hours to do the work in an inefficient way. There are faster people and better ways -- I have hired others to do this kind of project and typically they do it in 4 to 10 hours. The end product is a large spreadsheet that I upload to my website as a csv. So I turned to Upwork to find a freelancer. I hired someone who in theory SHOULD have been able to do the work. However, after 3-1/2 weeks of nothing (about 15 hours of work billed total) she had not produced anything but sent me a spreadsheet that was simply what you'd get if you had Adobe try to extract the particular PDF into a spreadsheet (5 minutes and an ugly result) and had her husband talk with me because it was HIM not her who would be doing the project.

OK, this was a surprise but I didn't care -- I figured he had a reason not to have his own profile.

We had initially also linked up on FB and messenger and I had given her access to a Slack channel but with the problems I requested that she/he contact me only via Upwork until this initial project was done.

So another week goes by and I push for communications/results and nada. But she bills for 20 hours and I think maybe something's happening. So I keep communicating, don't dispute her time (though I can see from screenshots that in middle of that 20 hours she has started randomly pulling up pages on my website that have nothing to do with her project) and then comes this last week where she bills 25 hours with no results. I paused the contract and sent several requests for her to just send me what she has done to date. She first says "I sent it in Slack/Dropbox" and I tell her to provide the link here in Upwork. No reply, no link.

She says she'll send it in an hour. That was DAYS ago. I put the contract on hold on Wednesday (today is Saturday) and no responding from her to my queries.

Now, I ping her saying "I have to report to Upwork this problem" if you don't give me SOMETHING, anything of the spreadsheet. Nothing from her. Then I request a refund and I get a "I tried to call you on FB" which she did not do -- my FB messenger has nothing from her. So I came back with a screenshot of FB to her saying "there's nothing there, please communicate on Upwork" and she is just not replying at all here or anywhere.

So this seems like a scam. Maybe the husband (or boyfriend or brother...) is the guy doing the scam and she's just the front. Maybe it's her but I am so frustrated because I've never paid anyone for so many hours w/o getting anything from them! If she (or he) is just clueless, that is OK and we can work forward but this is just a brick wall.

I requested a refund from her -- and see that went into the messages to her -- but don't know how the refund comes. Does anyone here have a similar experience or understanding?

Very frustrated.

yitwail · ‎04-04-2020

Brenda, that's a terrible experience you went through. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what useful advice I can give, since I'm a mere freelancer, and while I've worked over 1000 hours, I don't think I've ever been asked for a refund. Since you mentioned screenshots, the freelancer was probably aware that only hours tracked with time tracker are guaranteed. In case you're unfamiliar with hourly payment protection, here's a write-up:

https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/211068288-Hourly-Protection

The main points are screenshots show "contract-related activity", memos "describe the activity performed", and there's "adequate and fair activity levels". If they satisfied all those conditions, then I'm not sure you have a case. Also, if you dispute hours, it's best if you do so during the 5 day review period that follows each work week.

On the other hand, with rare exceptions, freelancers are not allowed to have someone else work on an hourly contract, so if you can prove to Upwork's satisfaction that her husband did the work, that might work in your favor.

This being the weekend, you might not get as much help from staff or contributors like myself as you would during the week, so I decided to reply, even if it doesn't materially help you.

__________________________________________________
"No good deed goes unpunished." -- Clare Boothe Luce

AleksandarD · ‎04-04-2020

Hi Brenda,

I'm very sorry to hear about the bad experience you had with the freelancer. One of our team members will reach out to you directly via a support ticket to assist you further.

Thank you.

~ Aleksandar

tta192 · ‎04-05-2020

She (or him? ) didn't know what the project was really about, maybe thought it was a simple copy-paste job. You should have started with a small sample - something doable in one hour (e.g. just a few lines in the output file) and see what/how they deliver. Worst case, you lose one hour as opposed to 30.

As it stands now you're likely going to pay for the time as logged - but make sure to improve your selection & testing process accordingly so you can prevent this from happening again in the future.

prestonhunter · ‎04-05-2020

This is another example of how the very concept of refunds is harmful to clients.

In the real world of hiring, there is no such concept. Employers do not hire employees thinking "If things don't work out perfectly, I will get back the money I paid to this employee."

On Upwork, successful, effective clients do not use refunds. They do not even consider the possibility of asking freelancers for a refund. Instead, they have their project managers monitor the work carefully and proactively, and they quickly close contracts on underperforming freelancers.

Successful and effective clients put their projects first. When a client allows an underperforming freelancer to continue to be a part of the team rather than firing that person, or when a client seeks a refund, it means the client is focusing on individual freelancers, rather than on the project.

zackwrites · ‎04-05-2020

Hello Preston,

I agree with you. Refunds are inappropriate, difficult to negotiate and a waste of time. I know a few freelancers who give refunds - using the "you can't please everyone" logic. I do not entirely agree with it. For employers, quality control/management is key. If a freelancer is not performing, get someone else - there is always another freelancer. Employers who manage successful projects, rely on metrics - one that is relevant for this post is called, "attrition rate". Employers spend time and money training their subordinates (at least for long term projects) - sometimes all of it goes to waste because it was not the right fit, or, there were other reasons. And like you said that employers who concentrate on the project rather than on the freelancer are saved from harm.

prestonhunter · ‎04-05-2020

re: "I agree with you. Refunds are inappropriate, difficult to negotiate and a waste of time."

To be precise, the ability to issue refunds IS appropriate, but only as a tool that should be used by a freelancer. For example, if a freelancer is hired using a fixed-price contract to do a task, and then doesn't do that task, then it is appropriate for the freelancer to issue a refund and close the contract.

But refunds are not an appropriate thing for clients to think about or use, because doing so undermines a client's ability to achieve their goals.

redbopeep · ‎04-05-2020

I tend to agree with you about refunds -- I've actually never thought I would be in a situation to think of requesting one. I have hired several freelancers over the past 6 years on ODesk and then when that was combined with Upwork, here. Some of these have been very long-term relationships with freelancers. I've never had a problem like this one. I have also worked as a freelancer on ODesk (before it was Upwork) and know what I would do as a freelancer is not what this one did.

Not every project is short-and-sweet. Sometimes it is an investment the client decides to make for the freelancer to get up to speed.

From working with other freelancers, I have found that if the kind of project is one that I'm looking for the person to do a lot of repeatedly over time and they have not done it before, it often pays for me to let them "waste" a little time upfront because typically they are able to pick up and go with the task. Then I am happy that I was patient. Here in this case, I carefully watched the freelancer for the first 2 weeks but so few hours had been completed by her/him that I felt she still had not gotten into the groove of the project yet she had the potential to do so.

But there is a clear point (hind sight is so 20:20) where I can see that she changed her behaviour on the computer and it became less focused and really didn't make sense to the project to be performed. With a new freelancer, I always require the tracking for payment, so the screenshots are a familiar thing for me. Her hours doubled and her focus fell apart (random websurfing on my site when she should have been working on the spreadsheets of narrow products and not visited the site at all) and that is the part that makes me say "scam"? here.

I'm pretty sure that you -- and other responsible freelancers -- do not tell your client that you've sent them something when you have not done so and ignored their requests for you to resend the item, or you would not state that you will send a file in an hour but then never send it at all to the client. Even when a couple days of "where is it?" messages are sent to you. The idea of "refund" did not come to me -- even though these last few days I was aware that she/he was struggling (or scamming) -- as I reached out and tried to get the freelancer to communicate. But the straw that broke this camel's back was when today it was clear that the freelancer was playing games with the communications and didn't appear to be likely to ever produce the work. Then I thought that I might as well request a refund as I have paid for random websurfing of my site and will not get my work product that I need from this person.

lysis10 · ‎04-05-2020

You're always taking a risk with new freelancers. At least it was not a lot of money. For them it is but I'm sure if you put up enough stink Upwork will get rid of them.

I used to hire a lot of writers and noobs were risky. They were very very flakey.

zackwrites · ‎04-05-2020

"I'm pretty sure that you -- and other responsible freelancers -- do not tell your client that you've sent them something when you have not done so and ignored their requests for you to resend the item, or you would not state that you will send a file in an hour but then never send it at all to the client. Even when a couple days of "where is it?" messages are sent to you. The idea of "refund" did not come to me -- even though these last few days I was aware that she/he was struggling (or scamming) -- as I reached out and tried to get the freelancer to communicate. But the straw that broke this camel's back was when today it was clear that the freelancer was playing games with the communications and didn't appear to be likely to ever produce the work. Then I thought that I might as well request a refund as I have paid for random websurfing of my site and will not get my work product that I need from this person."

You had a bad experience. You can file a dispute and you can end the contract with the freelancer - rate and review. Let other employers know about your experience and finally, find someone who fits your job description.

I hope this helps.

Saad.

redbopeep · ‎04-05-2020

"Successful and effective clients put their projects first. When a client allows an underperforming freelancer to continue to be a part of the team rather than firing that person, or when a client seeks a refund, it means the client is focusing on individual freelancers, rather than on the project."

We do not share the same view on this. Ebenezer Scrooge would make it as a highly successful client by your standard, lol. Since you are a freelancer, I hope you get your share of Scrooges to make you happy.

Simple projects that can be done in a day -- those are the ones that you don't think about the people. But when it is something that can take a few days (or months) you do have to think about the person and how they are likely to get into performing the required work. Some perform amazingly well for a short while and then disappoint with decreased performance over time whereas some struggle to get into the groove of a project but once there, they do really well and begin to excel. The world of people and projects is not so black and white as you imply.

lysis10 · ‎04-05-2020

I think you should have paused after the 15 hours or maybe even after the 20, but yeah you're getting scammed. This is using a work diary? No manual time? You can dispute manual time and auto-win.

I'm sure Upwork will deal with it though either way. The $3/hour people seem great until they get their money in other ways. You have to be careful of the noobs too. Personally, I doubt I would hire anyone who was auto accepted and in data entry.

redbopeep · ‎04-05-2020

Jennifer, thank you. You are 100% right about when I should have stopped the work. I had a discussion at about the 15 hour point with the freelancer and was ready to pull the plug but I did believe that it was possible the freelancer did not understand the instruction provided to them. My gut was right on it and I should have shut it down then. I did not pay for any hours which were not screencapture -- these were al screen capture hours but the captures make no sense to the project. And yes, I'm feeling scammed even so. I did pause the contract 3 days ago and there was no word from the freelancer when I continued to reach out. Today, I have pinged and pinged the freelancer with questions requests for some status and finally the refund request so she/he is now responding but not with anything besides "soon" and "I will send to you" and such.

feed_my_eyes · ‎04-05-2020

Brenda H wrote:
Jennifer, thank you. You are 100% right about when I should have stopped the work. I had a discussion at about the 15 hour point with the freelancer and was ready to pull the plug but I did believe that it was possible the freelancer did not understand the instruction provided to them. My gut was right on it and I should have shut it down then. I did not pay for any hours which were not screencapture -- these were al screen capture hours but the captures make no sense to the project. And yes, I'm feeling scammed even so. I did pause the contract 3 days ago and there was no word from the freelancer when I continued to reach out. Today, I have pinged and pinged the freelancer with questions requests for some status and finally the refund request so she/he is now responding but not with anything besides "soon" and "I will send to you" and such.

I think that you should stop wasting your time trying to communicate with the freelancer. Just block her. ~~If the screen captures clearly show that she/he wasn't working on your project, I believe that you can be refunded for that time.~~ Edited: sorry, I must have skipped over the part where you said that you didn't dispute her hours.

Apart from that, if the freelancer was sharing her account with someone else, then she should be banned. Make sure that you report this to Upwork.