Unfair Upwork Dispute System - favors scammer

[33a2d858]

I want help guys.

I have an Issue with a freelancer called Maryam ( I doubt its his real name or she is actually a female or a professor as she claims in her profile). 

She delivered a so-called literature review with total paraphrased plagiarism (e.g. hundrends of occurences of "Machine Literacy" instead of Machine Learning, "drug addicts" instead of clients/ modules, "colorful something", something about "stoners" etc... tottaly random craziness instead of technical terms 😛 the list goes on and on. 1000+ occurences of laughble nonsensical "terminology". She even tried to impose them and fool the Dispute Assitance Programme against Upwork's ToS. And the outlandish terminology was only the tip of the iceberg... Imagine the chaos I received. It was easy for a kid to see the opbvious scam. Not just bad quality. This person didnt know anything about anything. it was a simple scam. I expected she will deliver something mediocre or bad, I wasn't even expecting professor-like quality.... I run many projects so this slipped over me.
 
Now say you have a dispute over a $50-100 project (I had paid 190: released 120 and i had 70 in milestone when I realized the scam). The arbitation costs $360 for both parties so even if you win, you lose. Also the fees are paid by both and not only the loser of the dispute. Also, the mediation team in my case didn't even check the evidence I gathered for days. Raymond A. suggested the scammer to get the most money, even more than what the scammer suggested to give me back!! this scammer does this continuously on this platform exploiting this unfair system, judging from their reviews and ratings to their clients. 

Upwork Dispute System is useless and allows scams this way. 

In other platforms like freelancer.com the scammer would be banned, his review would be removed and the money would be fully refunded.

I am shocked by how unfair is the dispute system!!! Idon't know what to do please help. 

[spectralua · Accepted solution]

Now you know it. Take lesson and make conclusions. It was cheap, others paid thousads for that. Great deal. 

Use it as is or assign time to learn how it works. Or hire project manager to take care about works\disputes.

[LuiggiR]

Hi Nikolaos,

I'm sorry to learn about your recent experience with the freelancer and how it has inconvenienced you. I want to remind you that the Mediation team is there to facilitate the discussion between you and the freelancer and help both parties find a non-binding solution. If you disagree with the proposed solution for any reason, it would be best to let the Mediation agent know so that you can explore other alternatives.

I can see that you're actively communicating with the agent regarding the situation; I suggest that you continue doing as they're the ones who can best assist you at this time.

[33a2d858]

Dear Luiggi, 

Thanks for your answer but its not very helpful. It's nice to see upwork staff replying, but it would be much better reconsidering this system and refactor it on a fair basis.

Furthermore, s far the mediation team did things even worse, as the freelancer suggested to refund more money than the mediation team who suggested this scammer gets 75% of the money...

So thanks for nothing

[tlsanders]

I'm sorry to hear that you're shocked, but understand that the only way to be shocked that upwork does not make rulings in the dispute process is not to have bothered to learn anything about how Upwork works before using the site. It is clearly explained in the terms of service and in various help materials around the site. 

[33a2d858]

What do you mean "upwork does not make the rulings"???? What we say here (and in myriads of other forum posts freelancers and clients agree) his is a very unfair and discriminatory system, and this is what we are saying here. Did you consider what you told me here as help?

Also they did not follow their own ToS by banning misusing the Dispute Assistance Program, except if deceipt of mediators is ra righful usage of the service..

[tlsanders]

Yes, I think it would be VERY helpful for you to understand what the dispute process is and how it works so that you don't once again get blindsided by the fact that Upwork does not make decisions about who is right or wrong in the dispute process. I don't think it will help YOU, since you don't seem interested in learning anything and just seem to want to vent your anger.  But, if you learned how Upwork works before using it again, it would definitely be helpful for you. 

[33a2d858]

I appreciate your perspective, but my intent in coming here was not to vent
or merely to ask for help. I wanted to shine a light on certain aspects of
the dispute process that I find problematic, echoing concerns MANY have
shared on the Upwork forum. While I was aware of some aspects of this
system, like the arbitration fees, I expected a more just approach where
the party in the wrong would bear the costs. Suggestions like "you should
have known" don't bring resolution or change to the underlying issues, and
are irritating. I don^t read all 100 pages of ToS of every platform I work
with, do you? Perhaps you haven't experienced unfair outcomes in your
projects or maybe you don't have projects at all or don^t care losing time
money and get your projects ruined, but I believe that voicing our concerns
is the first step toward potential improvements. Yes, I'm frustrated, but
let's remember the goal here is to advocate for a fairer and less
discriminative (as those fees mean different things for different world
regions) system. Fortunately, after much persistence and after risking
everything, I'm hopeful that I'm on a path to a just resolution.

[tlsanders]

Right, and the help you are seeking is not available, because that's not how Upwork works. If you choose not to educate yourself about a site where you're entering into contracts and giving out your credit card information, that's nobody's business but yours. But, understand that when that irresponsibility blows up in your face, there's no one to blame but you. 

The dispute process, for what it's worth, is heavily slanted in favor of the client in that if the freelancer doesn't pony up for arbitration, the client automatically gets the money in escrow back. 

[33a2d858]

I think this is getting personal. I'm offended that you call me
irresponsible for something so normal. I already said I was aware the
unfair system of Upwork at some level but not every detail of course!! I
also said I run many things in many platforms and have little time. So you
want me to apologize that a freelancer scammed me!? 😛 OK, Sorry for that.
Hahah. Does this make the Upwork Dispute system better? Ideally it should
foresee such cases. I dare you to tell me that you've read everything in
the HUNDRENDS of pages of TOS and that you know everything because, that
would simply be a lie.... Unrealistic. Your posts are totally delusional
and obsessive, I understand you are under some psychological pressure in
your life.

Also, your claims about the TOS are totally uneducated, as: Upwork Dispute
system simply doesn't favor the client; it's unfair for both. So how do you
confront me on ignoring TOS, while you don't understand the basics??
Obviously there are bad freelancers like bad clients. Freelancers are not
always right because you are a freelancer! They can be unprofessional,
scammers and all the bad things just like clients! Writers are not always
right because you are a writer...Why do you want to persuade us to be
discriminative against clients? You seem very biased.

So your posts are still unhelpful and irritating, I am sure you enjoy that.
So please continue sending more 🙂

Checking your profile I understand you live for making posts in forums or
maybe it's some job of some kind or praising Upwork for some reason. So
please do your business here as well. Answer whatever you want from now on,
as I will not engage further on your need to send more posts. It doesn't
worth anyone's time.

[the-right-writer]

I'm not answering for Tiffany, but of course I read every word of the TOS, and it is not "hundreds of pages." If you don't care where your money goes or what happens to you or your business, then go ahead and ignore the rules as you have. Upwork can't make people do the right thing.

Why did I read very word of the TOS? Because I am not a fool nor an idiot. I am responsible for my business and my money. You bet I read every word, and anyone who does not, is a fool waiting to be parted from their money.

Why wouldn't you learn and follow the rules? No, I have no sympathy for you, freelancers, or clients who decide they don't have to bother knowing or following the rules.

Tiffany is not the one who needs education, it is you.

You lost the argument, actually you had no argument to begin with, only complaining. Then, when you have nothing, you turn to deflection. You use insults and garbage because you try to get others involved in a nasty back and forth. When you have no facts, no possible argument, and no way to back up preposterous statements, you deflect.

Deflection - the giant red blazing beacon that tells everyone you have no facts, no standing, you know you were wrong, and all you have left are childish insults.

[tlsanders]

As I (correctly) said, the onus is on the freelancer to pay for arbitration. If they do not, the funds are automatically returned to the client. It's impossible that you could read and write basic English and not understand the advantage that offers the client, so I will assume you're being disingenuous. 

You also seem to be wearing blinders, if your review of my profile gave you the impression that I'm being paid to say nice things about Upwork. I often say very negative things about Upwork. In addition, pointing out that you were foolish to engage in business without knowing how the platform worked and are responsible for your own problem isn't a positive statement about Upwork. It's neutral as to Upwork. 

[motoyen]

The Upwork mediation team are totally useless. If you have a dispute with a freelancer you should consider going to arbitration right away. Unfortunately in your case it won't be worth it, as you pointed out it will cost you more to do so. 

You'll have to take this as a learning experience of dealing with this platform. Upwork doesn't care about you or your dispute. As long as scammers keep posting jobs and freelancers keep buying connects to apply to those jobs, Upwork thinks everything is business as usual. 

[33a2d858]

Exactly. The same applies to scamming freelancers like in my case.

I had to gamble losing even more time and money, hoping the scammer will not decide that we will both lose money going to a costly arbitration.
.

It's clear our money isn't safe. The system is obviously unfair, and discriminatory especially since money means different things in different places. The process is long and unpredictable = inefficient.

The mediator job can literally be done by a  bot!

I will reduce my projects to this platform as unfortunately this is a very serious downside, which can be very costly.

[prestonhunter]

The dispute system is for freelancers.

No client should intentionally get involved in an Upwork dispute.

Clients essentially have unlimited power to hire and fire freelancers whenever they want. There is no reason for a client to file a dispute.

As a client, I have hired well over 100 freelancers on Upwork. I use Upwork because it saves me time and money. But a key part of my success as a client is that I know how to use the platform.

I really feel bad for the original poster because he had a disappointing experience. It is COMMON for inexperienced clients to make similar mistakes.

He didn't read all about how Upwork actually functions. He wasn't aware of best practices. That is pretty common. Most of us don't read all the instructions before using a new platform.

Bottom line takeaway point for clients:

Proactively plan to NEVER dispute, no matter what. Never ask for a refund, no matter what. Instead, fire any freelancer if you don't love their work.

[33a2d858]

Hi Presoton. Thank you so much for your response. I acknowledge that I should familiarize myself more with the TOS. While I have years of experience across multiple platforms (4), I find Upwork's dispute system different and, in my opinion, irrational, unfair, discriminative and less equitable compared to others I've encountered.

I'd also like to clarify that there's a distinction between receiving subpar quality and feeling deceived. It's akin to expecting gold but receiving empty chocolate wrappers. I understand your point may be more relevant to hourly projects, but for fixed-price tasks, the dynamics change.

Of course you always have to educate yourself but reading each platform's full TOS (hundrends of pages) is not realistic in many cases.

Best Regards.

[prestonhunter]

I wish Upwork did a better job of messaging to clients about what to expect and about how to use the platform effectively.. I think this is a significant weakness.

If by describing your personal experience, you help any client reading this to know that the dispute process is something they should avoid... you have provided a valuable service to others.

[tlsanders]

I just don't know why you keep repeating "hundreds of pages." Like any sensible business person, I read the contract I was entering into with Upwork. I don't recall exactly how long it took, but it certainly wasn't an hour.

[yofazza]

I don't read ToS' as well. There's a discussion about it before.

I think what you need to do is to familiarize yourself with how things works in here, while also being extra careful at the start. Reading forum threads for current and actual "problems" is one way IMO easier then reading tricky legal language in a ToS.

Yes there are scamming freelancers, a lot actually, intentional scammers or just low quality. Preston there often post detailed explanation about one way to minimize 'problems', take a look at his last paragraph. Basically you use hourly project, which actually safer and more convenient for both you and the freelancer if used correctly.

[shariful_siraji]

Sad to hear that