Abusive and unprofessional Client

[sakthismith]

I have been a Top Rated freelancer in upwork for more than 4 years. Past 8 months, i've involved in the contract "CAD designer to create a 3D model of a residential building both inside and outside rendering". It has been started from DEC 08 2018. Before we started to make a contract on Upwork, he told me that he need interior and exterior design of full house for 1000$ and i agreed to work with him for his price for ONLY 3 REVISIONS . After starting the contract, he has assigned only 10 hours per week and he was asking me to deliver the 3d model of the house(without proper 2d cad) Within 2 to 3 hours. I said that it couldn't be possible to finish the model within 3 hours by not having proper 2d plans. After he heard my words, he was ready to take videos to explain all sizes and the placement of the objects in the house but i told him that was not easy to create everything in 3d with the videos which he provide. But he requested me to do all things with his videos and i finally did everything(3d model of the house) which took more time than usual but he didn't understand the work flow and time consumption of the 3d work actually. I tried to explain him about the 3d work process and the time consumption of the work so many time but he did not concerned about those things. He thought that the 3d work is just like photoshop work and said," please follow my videos and do the work fast fast...". finally we finished front porch designs with too many revisions so i used to track the timer for the extra revisons that he took. So by taking too many revisions, the price was exeeding than 1000$ for a single design. So i helped him by pausing the tracker for the additional revisions meanwhile. but he always worried about the price. So i complainted to upwork that he is not professional and he asking me to do the work for free. but they said that you need to talk about this concern with your client again. so i did what they told. Now it has been more than 8 months, but still he is asking me to do all works by taking too many revisions without using time tracker. So i told him to end the contact because it's affecting my job rate due to inactivity. Finally he ended the contract on upwork at july 2019. After ended the contract, i was doing the work for free(August) but he still asking me to do the revisions. So i frustuated finally and i told him that i can't do the work here after. Today he sent a message on upwork. In his message, he told me that he has spoken with the upwork res regarding this issue and they said "the freelancer should work with the client until they get satisfied". Now he's threatening me by sending the message which contains, "If you are not agreed to work with the revisions, i would dispute the entire amount in upwork and leave the bad review so what do you want to do?".

I have the proof(his messages and the voice messages) and i'm ready to archieve all works that i delivered to him. So please someone help me regarding this issue. Please please please.

[petra_r · Accepted solution]

---

Krishnaveni M wrote:

Finally he ended the contract on upwork at july 2019.

Now he's threatening me by sending the message which contains, "If you are not agreed to work with the revisions, i would dispute the entire amount in upwork and leave the bad review so what do you want to do?".

---

Tell him to go right ahead.

The client can not dispute beep all for an hourly contract that ended in July, he also can not leave any review.

---

Krishnaveni M wrote:

 So i told him to end the contact because it's affecting my job rate due to inactivity.

---

No, that is untrue, open contracts with money previously paid do not have any effect on your metrics in any way, shape or form at all.

[sakthismith]

Thanks for your help Petra. Thank you so much.

[m_terrazas]

Krishnaveni,

I have marked your message to see if any moderator can help you.

Edited: Petra has been faster 🙂

[prestonhunter]

This client's behavior was preposterous.

All freelancers and all clients should be unified in doing what we can to help make Upwork a professional, helpful place for all users... by refusing to put up with this kind of bad client behavior.

Hiring freelancers on Upwork does not mean that freelancers are obligated to work for free for the clients forever.

Clients should hire freelancers.

Freelancers do work.

Freelancers are paid for their work and contracts are closed.

It should be that simple. This is not a difficult concept.

What is with these clients asking for free work AFTER contracts have been closed, or threatening bad feedback AFTER contracts have been closed? This is ridiculous.

It's like a customer who returns to a restaurant over a month later and asks for a free dessert, because they ate there six weeks ago.

No.

If you want a dessert, pay for a dessert.

Have you no shame?

[eric5037]

---

Preston H wrote:

This client's behavior was preposterous.

All freelancers and all clients should be unified in doing what we can to help make Upwork a professional, helpful place for all users... by refusing to put up with this kind of bad client behavior.

Hiring freelancers on Upwork does not mean that freelancers are obligated to work for free for the clients forever.

Clients should hire freelancers.

Freelancers do work.

Freelancers are paid for their work and contracts are closed.

It should be that simple. This is not a difficult concept.

What is with these clients asking for free work AFTER contracts have been closed, or threatening bad feedback AFTER contracts have been closed? This is ridiculous.

It's like a customer who returns to a restaurant over a month later and asks for a free dessert, because they ate there six weeks ago.

No.

If you want a dessert, pay for a dessert.

Have you no shame?

---

Agreed!

shame? conscience? professionalism? intelligence? none of them, that's for sure!

As you said, he can do nothing. Some clients don't respect the freelancer at all (do they even respect themselves?)

[prestonhunter]

re: "As you said, he can do nothing. Some clients don't respect the freelancer at all (do they even respect themselves?)"

I think it is very small percent who are like that.

In my own personal experience, the vast majority of clients are good cients, and good people. They behave professionally and they respect freelancers. I'm certain that the precise percentage who are like that varies depending on the skill niche and pay level.

But my experience convinces me that most client on Upwork are great.

Which makes the egregious behavior of those who aren't so much more unacceptable.

Even if a client is secretly a bad person, even if a client is secretly greedy... It's just not effective to behave unprofessionally and unethically. Successful clients treat freelancers respectfully and they follow the rules, and doing so leads to much greater productivity and higher quality work.

[eric5037]

Preston H. wrote:

re: "As you said, he can do nothing. Some clients don't respect the freelancer at all (do they even respect themselves?)"

I think it is very small percent who are like that.

In my own personal experience, the vast majority of clients are good cients, and good people. They behave professionally and they respect freelancers. I'm certain that the precise percentage who are like that varies depending on the skill niche and pay level.

But my experience convinces me that most client on Upwork are great.

Which makes the egregious behavior of those who aren't so much more unacceptable.

Even if a client is secretly a bad person, even if a client is secretly greedy... It's just not effective to behave unprofessionally and unethically. Successful clients treat freelancers respectfully and they follow the rules, and doing so leads to much greater productivity and higher quality work.

---

 I agree!

You're right, it depends on your niche. the worst clients are those that have no experience being a client, don't really know what they want, think you have superpower and basically know that they know more than you + they pay peanust. 

Bad day for me: responding to clients, asking questions, accepting a "progressive scam" contract already closed... and I haven't worked in anything yet.

Tomorrow will be a better day.

[BojanS]

Hi Krishnaveni,

I'm sorry to hear about your experience. I will share this with our team for their review and will take action as per our internal processes. 

Please, check this help article for more information on how to use the flag option to report any inappropriate content.

Thank you!

[prestonhunter]

We don't need clients like that on the platform.

If Upwork reviews this, and sees that a client was asking a freelancer to do work AFTER a contract was closed...

...or threatening a freelancer.... or asking a freelancer to work for free...

I would prefer to see such clients have their accounts terminated permanently.

Upwork certainly doesn't benefit when clients pressure freelancers to work for free. Upwork's revenue comes from a percentage taken from the money freelancers earn. So if freelancers don't earn anything, neither does Upwork.

[sakthismith]

I appreciate all of your suport. Thank you so much for all good hearted. Now i feel that i had been relieved from serious headache. Please review that and take a suitable action.

[prestonhunter]

re: "the worst clients are those that have no experience being a client, don't really know what they want..."

Your experience may differ from mine.

Personally, I have no problem with new clients.

And I do not mind clients who don't really know what they want, as long as they use an hourly contract and pay my posted hourly rate.

It is not appropriate for a client to use a fixed-price contract if she does not know what she wants, because by definition the purpose of a fixed-price contract is to hire a freelancer to provide a specific deliverable.

[eric5037]

---

Preston H wrote:

re: "the worst clients are those that have no experience being a client, don't really know what they want..."

Your experience may differ from mine.

Personally, I have no problem with new clients.

And I do not mind clients who don't really know what they want, as long as they use an hourly contract and pay my posted hourly rate.

It is not appropriate for a client to use a fixed-price contract if she does not know what she wants, because by definition the purpose of a fixed-price contract is to hire a freelancer to provide a specific deliverable.

---

Appropiate is a beautiful word but some "clients" are not really client, they're lik:  Are you real? See what I mean. 

Today I had a "client" kind of Task A = Task A + B. He doesn't have a clue of what he's doing or on the contrary does it very well creating a contract that differs from the original proposal. I felt! What can we do, right?

[sakthismith]

I reported his message on upwork but UPWORK DIDN'T TAKE ANY ACTIONS TOWARDS HIM. After i reported his message as abusive and threadening, the client is alerted and raised the complaint in upwork against me.  He is requesting mediation from upwork. they said me that "He is currently requesting either option:

1.  You refund the $450 and finishes the work.
2. You return all of the money if the full product is not delivered. " 

But i can't agree both options because i did the works with his too many revisions and already delivered to him the full work. But from his side his point is, the full work didn't delivered to him and he told them that i didn't delivered the full works which we are agreed from the begining. But the fact is because of his revisions i can't complete full works with his satisfaction. He wants to make me to do so many options until he get satisfied for single view also. and his knowlege of designing is very poor so that it took more time than we agreed before. I've delivered the works with many choices.. like one view with too many options.

When the mediation contacted me, i was sharing them the snapshots which contains my delivered works and his messages. Now upwork mediation said me that "Please know, by law Upwork must remain neutral for mediation cases. The purpose of informal mediation resolution is for Upwork to assist both parties in reaching a mutual agreement. ".

So what should i do right now? why upwork still supporting the abusive and unprofessional client like him. I don't know why.

[petra_r]

Upwork are not supporting the client, they are and have to be neutral.

If you are certain that you have done the work, to the agreed standard / level, then simply tell the mediator that you are not willing to refund and take it as far as you have to (including arbitration...)

EDITED TO ADD:

The client can not dispute any longer.

The contract ended in July, right? It is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY outside the 30 day deadline. AND it was an hourly contract...

Tell the mediator you are not refunding and are refusing to do any more free work for the client and that's it. Tell the mediator also to read the mediation guidelines.

Can someone from Upwork explain how this client can try to dispute an hourly contract that ended in July in September?

[sakthismith]

Ok. Thank you Petra. I can tell them.

[petra_r]

---

Krishnaveni M wrote:

Ok. Thank you Petra. I can tell them.

---

PLEASE SEE MY EDIT

The client can't dispute any longer.

When was the last time you logged any time under this contract?

[kochubei_valeria]

Krishnaveni and Petra,

I won't be able to share details for this specific case and I'd like to ask Krishnaveni not to share details in this public Community either. 

I'd like to clarify that if an issue with an hourly contract is reported outside of the Dispute Period, Upwork team may assist the client and the freelancer in communicating and reaching a mutual agreement. Upwork agents will also refer both parties to the applicable sections of Upwork User Agreement and Escrow Instructions.

Krishnaveni, please refer to your open ticket for more information.

Thanks!

[sakthismith]

.

[m_terrazas]

---

Valeria K wrote:

Krishnaveni and Petra,

I won't be able to share details for this specific case and I'd like to ask Krishnaveni not to share details in this public Community either. 

I'd like to clarify that if an issue with an hourly contract is reported outside of the Dispute Period, Upwork team may assist the client and the freelancer in communicating and reaching a mutual agreement. Upwork agents will also refer both parties to the applicable sections of Upwork User Agreement and Escrow Instructions.

Krishnaveni, please refer to your open ticket for more information.

Thanks!

---

Well, I don't understand:
How are you going to dispute something that is outside the dispute period?
It is totally incongruous !!

[prestonhunter]

re: "How are you going to dispute something that is outside the dispute period?"

I definitely do not approve of any client disputing work associated with a contract after the dispute period has passed.*

But: This CAN happen.

How? Like this:

Client contacts Upwork to complain.

Upwork explains that the official dispute period has passed.

Client still wants to dispute, so Upwork mediator facilitates conversation between freelancer and client... within which the Upwork mediator has no power to make any decision or compel anybody to do anything. But CAN serve as a go-between, helping each side communicate while client asks for money from the freelancer.

(Speaking from first-hand experience. Within the past month.)

====

(*Actually, I don't approve of any client disputing work after the contract has closed, but that is beside the point and unrelated to this thread.)

[nischay_namdev]

Dude, Upwork Dispute process is a SCAM total scam!! Beware! I was duped of $200, 2 months ago, due to upwork's bad policy!

My client was not funding the escrow and when I opened disputed they wanted to mediate between us, but nothing like it happened. They always sided with client and at the end of the time they said, we are  RETURNING MONEY TO CLIENT (even if 100% of the work was complete) but they said if you want a REAL  JUST you can call third party by paying the amount greater than Job value. Well that was a nice joke. And at that day I just realize the upwork works for appeasement of Clients, they don't care about freelancers. SO beware 

[kochubei_valeria]

Maria and Petra,

The client can only initiate a dispute via the platform during the Dispute Period (five days following the close of the weekly invoice period.) Non-binding dispute assistance is available for the client and the freelancer within 30 days of the date of the last release of funds from Client to Freelancer. The contract in question does not qualify for the non-binding dispute assistance and resolution. The team has explained the dispute process for hourly contracts to the both parties via their respective tickets. 

If users reach out to us about their contract issues once 30 days since the last payment have passed, Upwork team may still assist them with communication as they attempt to reach agreement as well as will educate them about the options they have within Upwork ToS.

[tlbp]

---

Valeria K wrote:

Maria and Petra,

The client can only initiate a dispute via the platform during the Dispute Period (five days following the close of the weekly invoice period.) Non-binding dispute assistance is available for the client and the freelancer within 30 days of the date of the last release of funds from Client to Freelancer. The contract in question does not qualify for the non-binding dispute assistance and resolution. The team has explained the dispute process for hourly contracts to the both parties via their respective tickets. 

If users reach out to us about their contract issues once 30 days since the last payment have passed, Upwork team may still assist them with communication as they attempt to reach agreement as well as will educate them about the options they have within Upwork ToS.

---

How is that different than the non-binding dispute process? 

[VladimirG]

Hi Tonya and Petra,

In an effort to make sure contracts are completed successfully and all the parties are satisfied with the outcome, the team can reach out to freelancers and clients and offer help with resolving the issue. This is not the same as the dispute/mediation/arbitration process outlined in the ToS. Hope this helps clarify the confusion as we can't share any specific details regarding the case.

[petra_r]

---

Vladimir G wrote:

Hi Tonya and Petra,

In an effort to make sure contracts are completed successfully and all the parties are satisfied with the outcome, the team can reach out to freelancers and clients and offer help with resolving the issue. This is not the same as the dispute/mediation/arbitration process outlined in the ToS. Hope this helps clarify the confusion as we can't share any specific details regarding the case.

---

We're confused again, are we? 😉

It does not "clear up the confusion" how there can be a "non binding" process that allows the "non binding" process to unilaterally decide to return money to the client. Either it is non binding or they can take money out of our pockets.

Those two are mutually exclusive.

I appreciate that you and Valeria are messengers so will refrain from cheap shots, but the whole wording surrounding disputes needs tidying up pronto.

Such as whether a fixed-rate contract can be disputed within 30 days from money released to freelancer or 30 days from the last time the client was charged.

MONTHS can be between those two dates so...

We deserve to know. This has nothing to do with this particular case, which thankfully has been resolved anyway.

[VladimirG]

Hi Petra,

I agree the wording is confusing and already shared that feedback with the team.

---

Petra R wrote:

---

Such as whether a fixed-rate contract can be disputed within 30 days from money released to freelancer or 30 days from the last time the client was charged.

MONTHS can be between those two dates so...

---

Here's the confirmation we provided a year ago in response to a question regarding the 30-day time frame you asked about, in which it was confirmed the "timeline begins from the date you see on the invoice. Not when the payment is released to the freelancer. Let me know if we need to clarify the process further."

[petra_r]

---

Valeria K wrote:

Non-binding dispute assistance is available for the client and the freelancer within 30 days of the date of the last release of funds from Client to Freelancer. 

---

This is getting more confusing by the minute.

Since when is there any "non binding dispute assistance" within 30 days of anything for hourly contracts, rather than Upwork looking at the work diary, and at its discretion, refunding clients for hours not logged according to the terms of the hourly protection, but with no next step to proceed to arbitration (as outlined in the terms)

How can it be called "non-binding" when Upwork says they can, at their discretion, refund the client? How is that "non-binding?" Something is either "non-binding" (meaning they can't do any deciding over funds) or it is "binding" - (meaning the freelancer has to accept their money being returned to the client against their will if Upwork decides to do so.)

If Upwork reserves the right to make a binding decision over the freelancer's money, the process can no be called "non-binding". That is nonsense.

There is indeed "non binding dispute assistance" for fixed-rate contracts, but it isn't "30 days of the date of the last release of funds", it is (and I am sure that is contrary to what we were previously told and came as a complete shock to me) "last time the client was charged" so opening a sneaky, nasty loophole to clients to simply fund a milestone to get around the 30 day rule if a contract is still open, and the only ways out are either to agree, the client abandons, or pay for arbitration.

This was never the case for hourly contracts.

It was always "is the work diary OK?" -Yes? Then there is no problem. For 5, or then 30 days.

This is the first time I have heard a freelancer being put through this wringer 2 months after a contract ended and much, much longer after any time was last logged. 

[m_terrazas]

Following Petra again, I repeat the question (and if possible, I would appreciate an answer with clear language):
When, how and why can a customer dispute the payment of an hourly contract?

[petra_r]

---

Valeria K wrote:

Krishnaveni and Petra,

I won't be able to share details for this specific case and I'd like to ask Krishnaveni not to share details in this public Community either. 

---

Why not? She wasn't naming the client or anything of the sort. I asked when she last logged time because according to the legal blurb Upwork will only look at the work diary of the last 30 days prior to a party seeking dispute assistance, and it even clarifies that "just" contacting support does not count.

If the client's dispute has no teeth, this kid who is scared out of her mind should have been told clearly that if she says "NO THANKS" that's the end of the "dispute."

Freelancers should not be put through this process frivolously, especially not when there is no chance of the client clawing back money other than by tricking the freelancer, or by the client being told to use dirty tricks to be able to dispute outside the dispute period.

She's not logged hours for months.

So what ************IS******************* the dispute period now?

First it was 5 days, then 30, but only hourly logged during 30 days prior to dispute were looked at,

is it  "how long is a piece of string" now?

Why the secrecy? Why are you forbidding the OP to discuss a situation that can hit all of us and her discussing the basic dates does not violate the community guidelines?

[m_terrazas]

---

Petra R wrote:

---

Valeria K wrote:

Krishnaveni and Petra,

I won't be able to share details for this specific case and I'd like to ask Krishnaveni not to share details in this public Community either. 

---

Why not? She wasn't naming the client or anything of the sort. I asked when she last logged time because according to the legal blurb Upwork will only look at the work diary of the last 30 days prior to a party seeking dispute assistance, and it even clarifies that "just" contacting support does not count.

If the client's dispute has no teeth, this kid who is scared out of her mind should have been told clearly that if she says "NO THANKS" that's the end of the "dispute."

Freelancers should not be put through this process frivolously, especially not when there is no chance of the client clawing back money other than by tricking the freelancer, or by the client being told to use dirty tricks to be able to dispute outside the dispute period.

She's not logged hours for months.

So what ************IS******************* the dispute period now?

First it was 5 days, then 30, but only hourly logged during 30 days prior to dispute were looked at,

is it  "how long is a piece of string" now?

Why the secrecy? Why are you forbidding the OP to discuss a situation that can hit all of us and her discussing the basic dates does not violate the community guidelines?

---

I'm with Petra.
Can anyone give us an "EXACT" answer about dispute times (per hour)?

And Valeria (I mean Upwork), please, don't ask that these issues not be discussed here, because it is the only method to clarify or find out about certain issues 😞

[sakthismith]

Finally the issue with my client has been solved. The informal mediator from Upwork understood my position that my client has been so problematic and stressful for me and I just cleared them by sending the proofs (snapshots of his messages). Thanks for all.

[kat303]

---

Krishnaveni M wrote:
Finally the issue with my client has been solved. The informal mediator from Upwork understood my position that my client has been so problematic and stressful for me and I just cleared them by sending the proofs (snapshots of his messages). Thanks for all.

---

---------------

You shouldn't have had to go through all of this and get all stressed out. Upwork should follow its own policy for dispute processes. The contract was closed in July. it's now Sept. From my understanding the client has up to 30 days to initiate a dispute. Not 40, or 50 days.  Just 30 days, from when the last payment was made. 

[jordonbaade]

---

Krishnaveni M wrote:
Finally the issue with my client has been solved. The informal mediator from Upwork understood my position that my client has been so problematic and stressful for me and I just cleared them by sending the proofs (snapshots of his messages). Thanks for all.

---

I am glad you got this straightened out as someone whose had problem clients that cancel projects in the middle then tries to get a refund because I wouldn't do extra work after the fact to wrap things up for him, for free.  This is the main reason I now avoid phone interviews, I want a written record of anything discussed for these very reasons.

I would also like to hear back officially on the dispute period, and why specifically Krishnaveni was forced through this process when it goes against Upwork's public policies, without an answer I will draw my own conclusion and I assure you it is not a good one. 

Frankly the answers from moderators when they chime in on most things seem to be just vague business speak that rarely says much of anything.  Is the purpose of these forums to help us and to have a way for Upwork to see and speak with their community or is it just a distraction tactic to reduce the number of support tickets people file while Community Gurus etc do the support work for Upwork for free?

[kochubei_valeria]

Hi Jordon,

The Dispute Period for disputes initiated via the platform as well as the timeline for when Dispute Assistance is available are outlined in section 7 of the Hourly, Bonus, and Expense Payment Agreement with Escrow Instructions. I have also described it in my post earlier on this thread:

Valeria K wrote:

The client can only initiate a dispute via the platform during the Dispute Period (five days following the close of the weekly invoice period.) Non-binding dispute assistance is available for the client and the freelancer within 30 days of the date of the last release of funds from Client to Freelancer.

---

Krishnaveni's contract was not in dispute as it was outside of the timeframes stated above. Upwork team was assisting her and her client with communicating in an attempt to resolve any remaining issues or misunderstanding. Please, see Vladimir post earlier on this thread:

---

Vladimir G.
In an effort to make sure contracts are completed successfully and all the parties are satisfied with the outcome, the team can reach out to freelancers and clients and offer help with resolving the issue. This is not the same as the dispute/mediation/arbitration process outlined in the ToS. 

---

[petra_r]

---

Valeria K wrote:

 I have also described it in my post earlier on this thread:

Valeria K wrote:

The client can only initiate a dispute via the platform during the Dispute Period (five days following the close of the weekly invoice period.) Non-binding dispute assistance is available for the client and the freelancer within 30 days of the date of the last release of funds from Client to Freelancer.

---

---

---

The "last release of funds from Client to Freelancer" is actually wrong (as I recently found out to my great shock) - It is 30 days from the client last being charged, and the "within 30 days" "non-binding" stuff is in no way "non-binding" at all if Upwork, as it does, is able to unilaterally return money to the client at its sole discretion."

Sorry, but....

[kochubei_valeria]

Petra,

Please note that in the sentence you quote, I was referring to hourly contracts since Krishnaveni was discussing an hourly contract. Please, refer to section 7.2 here:

"Non-binding dispute assistance (“Dispute Assistance”) is available within 30 days of the date of the last release of funds from Client to Freelancer."

You were referring to fixed-price contracts and Vladimir addressed your comment by referring to Heather's reply. You can find more information in the section 6.1 here:

"“Dispute Assistance Deadline” means the date 30 days after the Client was billed for the last milestone."

[jordonbaade]

---

Valeria K wrote:

Hi Jordon,

The Dispute Period for disputes initiated via the platform as well as the timeline for when Dispute Assistance is available are outlined in section 7 of the Hourly, Bonus, and Expense Payment Agreement with Escrow Instructions. I have also described it in my post earlier on this thread:

Valeria K wrote:

The client can only initiate a dispute via the platform during the Dispute Period (five days following the close of the weekly invoice period.) Non-binding dispute assistance is available for the client and the freelancer within 30 days of the date of the last release of funds from Client to Freelancer.

---

Krishnaveni's contract was not in dispute as it was outside of the timeframes stated above. Upwork team was assisting her and her client with communicating in an attempt to resolve any remaining issues or misunderstanding. Please, see Vladimir post earlier on this thread:

---

Vladimir G.
In an effort to make sure contracts are completed successfully and all the parties are satisfied with the outcome, the team can reach out to freelancers and clients and offer help with resolving the issue. This is not the same as the dispute/mediation/arbitration process outlined in the ToS. 

---

---

Oh so his dispute wasn't a dispute and your arbitration wasn't an arbitration and Upwork definitely prevents people from abusing their system trying to take advantage of freelancers.  Makes complete sense when you just say the words don't mean what they mean!

So what do y'all call it when you have a client that wants their money back outside the dispute period who has an issue and you're aiding in settling that?  I'm pretty sure the definition is arbitration.