Jan 21, 2022 07:23:24 AM by Mark K
Dear community, ask for your advice. What would be the easiest way out of this traps I got myself into.
I do Airtable setups and scripting. I got a job where the client wanted to generate reports and send them out to his clients.
We agreed we would use Sendgrid or Mailgun API.
I did my job, client failed to provide API Keys. However he asked to help him because he was desperate to at least get him email templates.
I have developed a number of cloud functions, this one. So told him I will just use it until he gets the API Key for Sendgrid, that's when I will be able to swap the functions and that's it.
Next day client told me he didn't like the email template I used (I took Mailgun open source template as he never provided neither design nor clear requirements except for data structure).
Then told me it looked unprofessional and asked me to make another one, with additional field, so I had to adjust the script. I told hime this was beyond the scope of requirements but I figured out that he would not leave me alone, and he was persistent. We agreed that if I do that, we close the contract and that's it. I did my part, he was happy about the job and he generated and verified that the script works.
In a couple of days the client returns with a new template and asks to look into it. I told him no, I will not do anymore work for him in this contract and will only look at it after we close milestone as an extra bonus for him. He said he understood and proceeded with: "So when do I expect it?"
I told him that only after we end the contract, so he ended the contract and demanded total refund. I was shocked. I filed a dispute.
He kicked me out of the base so I didn't have any access to the script. Luckily, I've recorded the way script worked for portfolio reference and kept the source code in my repository.
The client blatantly told me the script does not work while he was generating templates (I can see the logs of successful function invocation).
I've summarised this in the dispute case, then he went on saying that I lacked skills and the script was somehow working non-reliably, some of it was hosted on AWS and that I was lucky that he didn't provide me with API keys as there was less work to do. He said that he would pay the money if I give him source code for the template generation code (initially Sendgrid was to generate templates).
I am new to the platform and do not know how it works. I have now great success with clients, got Rising talent badge and don't want to deal with possible negative feedback due to this issue. I've read that clients like this can leave feedback even if the dispute is won.
How should I go about this? The job was only $100 and frankly it drains energy from me to communicate with this client further. So I would even give him a refund and let him enjoy the free work he got from me.
But the fact that he would blatantly say things like the script does not work while using it for his business, well, wow! Well, I am beyond surprised.
What would you advise? What would be the strategy here?
Solved! Go to Solution.
Jan 21, 2022 12:11:58 PM by Tatevik G
You said he ended the contract, means he already left the feedback. So that ship has sailed. Even if you refund him, the public feedback will disappear, but private one will stay and that's the one that effects JSS.
Jan 21, 2022 07:39:43 AM by Preston H
re: "What would be the easiest way out of this traps I got myself into."
Don't work for free.
If clients want your help, they need to hire you with an hourly contract, and you log time while communicating with them.
Jan 21, 2022 08:05:38 AM by Mark K
Yeah, I got that initial contract should be hourly.
But what's the strategy with the dispute relating to potentially receiving bad feedback. The process is unclear to me.
Jan 21, 2022 08:08:52 AM by Preston H
re: "But what's the strategy with the dispute relating to potentially receiving bad feedback. The process is unclear to me."
If a client has paid you, then a client can leave public feedback. And that public feedback will appear on your profile page.
If you refund all money associated with a contract, then no mention of the job will appear on your public profile page. No feedback will appear.
But private feedback can still affect JSS.
Jan 21, 2022 12:11:58 PM by Tatevik G
You said he ended the contract, means he already left the feedback. So that ship has sailed. Even if you refund him, the public feedback will disappear, but private one will stay and that's the one that effects JSS.
Jan 21, 2022 12:55:54 PM by Tauseef A
Something similar happened to me as well. I was hired by a client for drafting terms and conditions, privacy policy, and cookies policy for his website. Well, after submitting the file, the client said he likes the work and will have something for me by tomorrow.
I woke up the next morning to his refund request.
It was shocking since he stated the work wasn't good enough and he needed a refund to use someone else.
I visited his website and found out my written work was already uploaded. I fought this and provided all the proofs to the so called 'mediation expert' but you know what, the expert ignored whatever I have told him along with proofs, screen shots and video of the website and after two weeks He offered I should accept half payment.
So, long story short, don't want to discourage you but don't expect anything good from the mediation team.
Jan 21, 2022 01:06:00 PM by Preston H
re: "I visited his website and found out my written work was already uploaded. I fought this and provided all the proofs to the so called 'mediation expert' but you know what, the expert ignored whatever I have told him along with proofs, screen shots and video of the website and after two weeks He offered I should accept half payment."
Taussef:
The actions of the mediation team disappointed you.
But they were doing their job.
You provided proofs.
It is not Upwork's intention that the mediation team look at your proofs.
Th mediation team said that you should accept half payment.
Based on what I have read in the Forum, this is how the mediation team is instructed to operate.
I am not trying to say how things SHOULD be. I am trying to point out that this is how the system currently works.
Here are options that you have at this point:
a) do nothing; all money will be returned to the client
b) accept the mediation team's recommendation that you accept half payment
c) counter-offer; for example: state that you will accept 75% payment
d) reject the offer for half payment; state that you require full payment
If you insist that you require full payment, the mediation team WILL NOT OVERRIDE your decision.
They will present your decision to the client, and then the client will need to decide whether or not to accept your decision.
If you and the client can not come to an agreement, the next step will be to go to arbitration. If you and the client both agree to pay $291 (non-refundable), then the matter can go to arbitatation (as long as Upwork agrees and pays $293).
Then an outside arbitrator will make a binding decision about who gets the money in escrow.
Jan 21, 2022 01:22:16 PM by Peter G
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, or just missing something, but isn't that how a mediation team mediates? By looking at each side's "proofs" then basing their decision/recommendation on the merits of each? I must say, it is not comforting to know that a client can't be forced to pay when the freelancer can prove they did what they were contracted to do.
Jan 21, 2022 01:30:21 PM by Preston H
re: "Maybe I'm misunderstanding, or just missing something, but isn't that how a mediation team mediates? By looking at each side's 'proofs' then basing their decision/recommendation on the merits of each? I must say, it is not comforting to know that a client can't be forced to pay when the freelancer can prove they did what they were contracted to do."
Peter:
Upwork dispute mediators are not allowed to make a decision. This is because the money in dispute is in a true escrow fund. The rules prohibit them from making decisions.
I suppose that there MIGHT be instances in which mediators look at poofs and evidence. But they can't make a decision based on any of that.
The impression I get from reading real cases here in the Forum is that Upwork dispute mediators might look at some proofs, but are just as likely to not look at it at all.
Jan 21, 2022 01:41:17 PM by Peter G
Understood. Thanks. But I forgot to mention and realize that freelancers will get paid no matter what if the time-tracker has been being used correctly.
Jan 21, 2022 01:41:15 PM by Tauseef A
Nope. They don't care if you've done something genuine, spent a lot of time, and can prove your client used your work and refused to pay, they'll still ignore you because 'CLIENTS PAY' and we don't. In reality, we pay more than what clients do.
Jan 21, 2022 01:54:54 PM by Martina P
This is mediation, not a dispute. More like couples counceling than divorce court.
Jan 21, 2022 01:18:44 PM by Tauseef A
Preston!
That's something I already knew and is mentioned in terms of services, thanks.
My point of concern was that when you can and did prove that the client was doing a fraud, why don't the mediation experts take an action?
If clients can swindle and rob us of our hard earned money, what's the point of paying Upwork the 20 percent of what we earn. If a client can possibly rob me outside of Upwork, I will need to work on here and pay some of my money for my security but if the same thing can happen here as well, then I see no point in Upwork's claim of secure business.
Jan 21, 2022 01:31:40 PM Edited Jan 21, 2022 01:32:32 PM by Preston H
re: "My point of concern was that when you can and did prove that the client was doing a fraud, why don't the mediation experts take an action?"
The mediation team can not take action.
It doesn't really matter if the freelancer believes he has provided proof that the client is a scoundrel.
It is not the role of the mediation team to take action. The role of the mediation team is to facilitate communication between the two parties, and encourage them to come to a mutual decision.
Jan 21, 2022 01:45:35 PM by Tatevik G
How much do you think 20% does? Right now your total earnings are 4k, so Upwork made about $800 from you at most. Average lawsuit costs about 3k at least? Doesn't make any financial sense whatsoever for Upwork to want to get involved in lawsuits from angry clients, that's why they pay 3rd party arbitration to make the decision. The 20% fee is for giving you access to pool of clients, giving you hourly payment protection if you choose to work with hourly project, running the server, paying employees, and, you know, making profit.
Jan 21, 2022 02:16:22 PM by Tauseef A
Yes thanks and leave freelancers and clients rob each other whenever they're in mood?
Nice advice though.
Jan 21, 2022 01:43:35 PM by Tauseef A
Quote//It is not the role of the mediation team to take action. The role of the mediation team is to facilitate communication between the two parties, and encourage them to come to a mutual decision// unquote.
I might be wanting to leave this discussion here. That's again something I already knew.
I'M COMPLAINING, RATHER RANTING, and not asking you or anyone else how things work.
Thanks for the advice anyways.
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