Apr 2, 2021 09:12:27 AM by Joseph O
The majority of my projects are in the $2k-$8k range. This makes it very uneconomic to take any project that is small, as I will be taking on the same review risk as the larger contracts with much less upside. The way that Upwork is currently set up, I would say that any contract under $800 is not economic for my profile (reward does not justify the risk). This rules the majority of the invites I receive.
In order to make these contracts economic, Upwork should launch a feature that allows freelancers to offer clients a small fixed price contract (could be called "trial" or "consultation") to initiate a relationship. Most importantly, these clients would not be able to leave a review unless they signed up for a bigger contract. This would make it significantly less risky to take on small projects and increase Upwork's GMV dramatically.
Apr 2, 2021 09:41:03 AM by Petra R
The JSS is already Dollar-weighed. You could say that a large contract has a much bigger risk of affecting your profile than a small one.
Also, most freelancers don't have many big contracts.
It would be grossly unfair to not allow clients to leave feedback. They paid, so they can leave feedback.
Joseph O wrote:...and increase Upwork's GMV dramatically.
No, it wouldn't. How in the world would it do that??
Apr 2, 2021 10:06:55 AM by Christine A
If clients were unable to leave feedback on any contract under $800, most freelancers would have no reviews at all.
Apr 2, 2021 01:18:07 PM by Joseph O
Apr 3, 2021 05:42:52 AM Edited Apr 4, 2021 03:16:41 AM by Mikko R
Apr 3, 2021 02:59:20 PM Edited Apr 3, 2021 03:04:05 PM by Tonya P
"I'll take your money but I don't trust you enough to let you assess my work."
Everybody had an amazing fix for the review system and that amazing fix almost always involves eliminating the exact type of review that hurt their JSS. Maybe just learn to take your lumps like the rest of us commoners.
Apr 3, 2021 04:57:55 PM by Joseph O
Apr 3, 2021 10:22:09 PM Edited Apr 3, 2021 10:22:43 PM by Petra R
Joseph O wrote:
It would be cool if I could leave this sort of feedback without being attacked by people who are some how triggered by the idea that some consultants have higher earnings than they do.
You are not being attacked and truly, nobody could possibly care any less what you are or aren't earning. Nobody is attacking you. Your fellow freelancers simply don't agree with the merits of or any need for your idea. That's all.
Joseph O wrote:
Currently, that means that I just won’t work with clients who can’t afford to spend a lot.
Don't then. Problem solved.
Joseph O wrote:
I wish that I was allowed to leave feedback for whatever service you are meant to be providing to this forum.
I am not "meant to be providing" any services here. I am simply another freelancer.
And funny how I am not the one who is persisting with the personal attacks. Please do try to discuss the points brought up, without the repeated ad hominem insults... that would be great, thank you!
Apr 2, 2021 01:17:05 PM by Joseph O
Apr 3, 2021 05:33:17 AM Edited Apr 3, 2021 05:52:41 AM by Christine A
Joseph O wrote:
It would increase the GMV by increasing the amount of projects that are possible for freelancers like me to take on. The current system is in a disequilibrium because small projects are disproportionately powerful, even after accounting for a dollar-weighted JSS. Correcting the disequilibrium would lead to more projects being matched with qualified freelancers and more money spent on the platform, which would result in a larger GMV.
I have to confess that I'm completely failing to see any benefits to clients or to Upwork. If I were a client and a freelancer said to me, "Okay, I'll do your project, but you have to agree not to leave me any review" my response would be "absolutely not!". Why would any client want to hire a freelancer who refuses to take any responsibility for the outcome?
Also, telling a client that you won't work for them unless they agree not to leave feedback? That's feedback manipulation, which is against the rules.
It's all well and good to say that your own clients would have no problem with this. Unfortunately, Upwork's policies apply to all clients, not just yours.
Don't get me wrong, I totally understand what you're saying. I've turned down projects whenever I get any hint that a client might be difficult and tank my JSS, and I'd make a lot more money if I didn't have these worries. But that's the whole point of the JSS. Upwork WANTS us to be worried about getting bad ratings, because then we won't take on projects if we're not certain that we're the right person for the job, and we'll make sure that we always do our best work for clients. I don't think they're going to change the system to make it easier for us.
Apr 3, 2021 05:46:47 AM by Mikko R
Apr 3, 2021 05:50:45 AM Edited Apr 3, 2021 05:54:27 AM by Petra R
Joseph O wrote:
It would increase the GMV by increasing the amount of projects that are possible for freelancers like me to take on.
Only if nobody was hired other than yourself. If another freelancer does the job, the GMV stays the same. I'm sure you don't believe that clients won't hire anyone if you don't take a contract because you are afraid of poor outcomes.
Joseph O wrote:
Also, a $200 contract recently reduced my JSS by 1%.
Use your top rated perk if it bothers you. That's what it is there for.
I would think Upwork will be totally unlikely to consider a feature nobody has ever asked for and which wouldn't be of any use to the vast majority of users, based on your unique situation.
I have contracts ranging from $5 to over $100k. It never occured to me to turn down work from great clients just because I am frightened of poor feedback.
I do turn down contracts from clients who aren't the kind of clients I work well with, but that is out of principle, not based on project value.
.
Apr 3, 2021 09:30:14 PM by Joseph O
Petra,
I'm not describing a hypothetical problem. I'm describing an actual problem that both myself, my clients, and my colleagues face fairly regularly. There is truly no point in arguing that this wouldn't be useful to me or my clients or that my clients wouldn't be interested in working for me if they weren't allowed to leave me a review, because you are arguing against something that is just true. Real clients have requested this feature to me. Ignoring feedback from the people who are actually on the ground is a terrible way to do business. It's okay to decide to not add a feature. It is completely absurd to rail against me like this and tell me that my issue isn't real.
Anytime you put up a barrier that prevents a trade of goods and services that would otherwise be successful, there is a deadweight loss and GMV will be lower because of it. It doesn't matter if the client then goes and finds another freelancer, because they will still be choosing the second best fit. Utility will be lost. If you do this on a large scale, GMV will be lower than it otherwise would be.
I wish that I was allowed to leave feedback for whatever service you are meant to be providing to this forum. Your responses are so consistently discouraging and seem to have the soul purpose of crushing any dialogue that might otherwise occur. I would truly much prefer to have received no response at all.
Apr 4, 2021 03:12:12 AM by Christine A
Joseph O wrote:There is truly no point in arguing that this wouldn't be useful to me or my clients or that my clients wouldn't be interested in working for me if they weren't allowed to leave me a review, because you are arguing against something that is just true. Real clients have requested this feature to me.
I've been on Elance/Upwork for over 20 years and not one single client has ever even hinted that they wish this was a feature. (This doesn't make your experiences irrelevant, of course - just sharing my own.) But if your clients don't want to leave feedback, you can simply close contracts yourself and then they don't have to. Why must they be prevented from doing so?
Joseph O wrote:Anytime you put up a barrier that prevents a trade of goods and services that would otherwise be successful, there is a deadweight loss and GMV will be lower because of it. It doesn't matter if the client then goes and finds another freelancer, because they will still be choosing the second best fit. Utility will be lost. If you do this on a large scale, GMV will be lower than it otherwise would be.
But it would be bad for clients if unqualified freelancers clamoured to do test projects for them, secure in the knowledge that they won't be reviewed on their performance, and quite happy to work for a small payment. Feedback is currently the only thing that weeds out bad freelancers and serves as a warning to other clients not to hire them. Many of them would be happy to exclusively bid on small test projects, then clients would receive terrible work and run a mile. You think that wouldn't hurt Upwork's bottom line?
Joseph O wrote:Ignoring feedback from the people who are actually on the ground is a terrible way to do business.
You've stated your case and I'm sure that a moderator has read the thread by now and will "pass it onto the team" if it merits consideration. But other freelancers can also weigh in as to why this might not be such a good idea; shouldn't our feedback count as well?
Joseph O wrote:Petra,
I wish that I was allowed to leave feedback for whatever service you are meant to be providing to this forum.
We're allowed to leave feedback in the form of kudos. Cast your eyes to the right of your screen - Petra has been the "top solution author" and "top kudoed member" for as long as I've been a part of this community.
Apr 3, 2021 05:57:13 AM by Alexander N
Is that right? Is JSS dollar-weighted? I know star rating is/was dollar-weighted, but i always assumed JSS wasn't?
Apr 3, 2021 06:57:08 AM by Petra R
Alexander N wrote:Is that right? Is JSS dollar-weighted? I know star rating is/was dollar-weighted, but i always assumed JSS wasn't?
It originally wasn't.
It is now.
Apr 4, 2021 12:22:18 AM Edited Apr 4, 2021 12:23:49 AM by Alexander N
And does that mean that projects that got a bad feedback but were 100% refunded, do not impact JSS anymore at all? They used to.
Same with projects that ended with no money being ever paid. They also used to impact JSS negatively. But if JSS is dollar weighted now, they shouldn't right?
If both is true, this is definitely Very Good news, almost hard to believe.
Apr 4, 2021 02:49:18 AM by Nikola S
Hi Alexander,
If you refund the full amount of a contract and your client leaves positive feedback, it will not be included in your JSS. This is because contracts with good feedback but no earnings aren't considered in the score.
You can find more information about how job size is affecting your Job Succes Score on this thread.
Apr 4, 2021 03:18:52 AM Edited Apr 4, 2021 03:20:51 AM by Petra R
Alexander N wrote:And does that mean that projects that got a bad feedback but were 100% refunded, do not impact JSS anymore at all?
No, it doesn't mean that and if it meant that it would be disastrous news, because freelancers could just get rid of any sign of bad feedback and messed up contracts.
But contracts with no money paid, but positive or no (private) feedback don't hurt the JSS anymore. If there is poor private feedback, they do.
Apr 4, 2021 03:24:17 AM by Christine A
Alexander N wrote:And does that mean that projects that got a bad feedback but were 100% refunded, do not impact JSS anymore at all? They used to.
A client's bad private feedback can still impact your JSS, even with the dollar weighting (there will be less impact, but not zero impact). If that weren't the case, everyone would have a 100% JSS and Upwork may as well get rid of it altogether.
Apr 4, 2021 04:15:01 AM Edited Apr 4, 2021 04:16:12 AM by Petra R
Christine A wrote:
A client's bad private feedback can still impact your JSS, even with the dollar weighting (there will be less impact, but not zero impact).
I am fairly certain based on seeing some outcomes (but not absolutely sure) that the JSS impact is based on what was paid, rather than the eventually remaining $0. I am basing this on seeing how large refunds did not make any difference to the JSS at all.
Apr 4, 2021 04:21:21 AM by Christine A
Petra R wrote:
Christine A wrote:
A client's bad private feedback can still impact your JSS, even with the dollar weighting (there will be less impact, but not zero impact).I am fairly certain based on seeing some outcomes (but not absolutely sure) that the JSS impact is based on what was paid, rather than the eventually remaining $0. I am basing this on seeing how large refunds did not make any difference to the JSS at all.
Ah, that's interesting - and fair, IMO. I should think that Upwork would want to discourage large refunds!
Apr 3, 2021 11:08:31 PM by Tonya P
Allow it but require disclosure.
"This freelancer, by mutual agreement with one or more clients, has opted not to allow feedback on the designated contracts [marked on their work history]. As a result, their JSS calculation does not reflect feedback from X contracts with a total value of $XX."
Apr 3, 2021 11:22:51 PM Edited Apr 3, 2021 11:23:40 PM by Petra R
Tonya P wrote:Allow it but require disclosure.
"This freelancer, by mutual agreement with one or more clients, has opted not to allow feedback on the designated contracts [marked on their work history]. As a result, their JSS calculation and their feedback does not reflect feedback from X contracts with a total value of $XX."
Added by me
I still don't see any point in it and am fairly sure that hardly anyone would use it (which could be a hint that maybe tech-time be better spent on fixing broken stuff and building things people actually want) but at least that way it would be clear to a profile visitor that a feedback history and the JSS are not comprehensive and have been manipulated by requiring clients to not leave feedback.
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