Putting unnecessary job post and not hiring and wasting connects

[vgshyam]

Hello,

        I'm an active user for the last three months. During the last three months, I wasted many connects and not getting hired so I find some interested thing about client.

I 'm showing cases where my connects are wasted.

1) Client did not verify payment gateway even though he/she can post job. 

   ( solultion: If client did not verify payment gateway option, then he/she does not able to job post)

2) The client putting job post but did not interact with any freelancers.

    (solution:  if client is putting post and he/she not interact with any freelancers then he/she will be charge for that post and freelancers should get their connect refund )

3) The client putting job post and interact with freelancers but did not hire

   (solution:  if client is putting post and he/she not interact with any freelancers then he/she will be charge for that post and freelancers should get their connect refund )

I hope upwork will find out the solution for these. becuase freelancers are wasting time and connects for that post.

Thank you

[vgshyam]

Hello,

        I'm an active user for the last three months. During the last three months, I wasted many connects and not getting hired so I find some interested thing about client.

I 'm showing cases where my connects are wasted.

1) Client did not verify payment gateway even though he/she can post job. 

   ( solultion: If client did not verify payment gateway option, then he/she does not able to job post)

2) The client putting job post but did not interact with any freelancers.

    (solution:  if client is putting post and he/she not interact with any freelancers then he/she will be charge for that post and freelancers should get their connect refund )

3) The client putting job post and interact with freelancers but did not hire

   (solution:  if client is putting post and he/she does not interact with any freelancers then he/she will be charge for that post and freelancers should get their connect refund )

I hope upwork will find out the solution to these. because freelancers are wasting time and connects for that post.

Thank you

[feed_my_eyes]

Here's a better solution: if you don't want to apply to jobs posted by clients with unverified payment methods, then don't apply to them. You can also check the client's hiring record and only apply if the percentage is high. This way, your punitive suggestions won't damage my business by scaring off the new, unverified clients who hire me on a regular basis.

[vgshyam]

Hello,

       Thank you for your reply and your answer is acceptable. As a freelancer, applying for a job, I must need connects and this same way, client should require to connects to post a job so unnecessary posts will not be posted by client.

[tlbp]

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Ghanshyam V wrote:

Hello,

       Thank you for your reply and your answer is acceptable. As a freelancer, applying for a job, I must need connects and this same way, client should require to connects to post a job so unnecessary posts will not be posted by client.

---

So you want clients to be billed $0.90 if they don't hire someone? I suppose that might deter the very cheapest clients. But, it might also prevent them from choosing this marketplace over the completely free ones. Are you willing to risk losing access to legitimate clients who don't want to spend anything to post?

[tammni]

Jumping in here. Personally, if a company is so cheap that cannot affort less than a dollar for hiring, maybe that's an indicator of how much they would (dis)respect their freelancers and I wouldn't be too sad to see those clients leave Upwork. Quite the contrary. Would be great to have Upworkd cleaned up from all that rubbish it's full of. 

[tech_bk]

Hi Christine,

                   It's not always that verified payment user will be responsive to the proposals submitted. I would like to mention that most of my proposals were having Verified Payment and got good rating, but still I do not see response for weeks( not that I am expecting everyone would hire, but atleast hire any of freelancers who have submitted proposals) . So what is your suggestions in such scenario. How do upwork handle such scenarios where Freelancers do not pay the price in terms of losing connects ( in some scenario it is 6 connects or may be more, I am not very sure how these expected connects for submitting proposals is calculated). 

[feed_my_eyes]

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Bharath N wrote:

So what is your suggestions in such scenario. 

---

Treat it as a business expense and not a money-back guarantee, and charge your clients enough to cover your expenses. If you pay to take out an ad and don't get any clients, the advertiser doesn't give you a refund. If you pay to attend a networking event and don't get any new clients, you don't get a refund, either. Think of it that way.

[12rizwan_khattak]

I am a top rated freelancer but from last 2 months i am just applying and loosing connects only . but no interview ,no hiring . One more thing that i am only applying for verified payment jobs , but its just waste of time and also connects and connects we paid for those. So just sayig that upwork is no more good for freelancer because they did not provide any facility to freelancer even top rated but only they charge $ to them. I am using from 2008 when it was oDesk.

[tlbp]

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Ghanshyam V wrote:

Hello,

        I'm an active user for the last three months. During the last three months, I wasted many connects and not getting hired so I find some interested thing about client.

I 'm showing cases where my connects are wasted.

1) Client did not verify payment gateway even though he/she can post job. 

   ( solultion: If client did not verify payment gateway option, then he/she does not able to job post)

2) The client putting job post but did not interact with any freelancers.

    (solution:  if client is putting post and he/she not interact with any freelancers then he/she will be charge for that post and freelancers should get their connect refund )

3) The client putting job post and interact with freelancers but did not hire

   (solution:  if client is putting post and he/she does not interact with any freelancers then he/she will be charge for that post and freelancers should get their connect refund )

I hope upwork will find out the solution to these. because freelancers are wasting time and connects for that post.

Thank you

---

That would be an entirely different platform and marketplace. There are places where clients who want to pay to post can go, if you want to find clients who are pre-qualified via forced payments, those platforms are where you should look. But it is unrealistic to expect that a brand will change its entire business model to someone else's unless you can prove that the other business model will be more profitable for the brand, not just you personally. 

[martina_plaschka]

You are looking at things from your perspective only. That is understandable as it's human nature. It might be helpful, though, to consider other perspectives, specifically the one of upwork, which is a business, and the client, who is the one paying almost all of the money. 

So put yourself first in the position of upwork. You run a business that is seriously off-kilter: You have hundreds of thousands of freelancers competing for a relatively stable number of jobs. Thousands want to join every day. But the clients paying for it all are elusive. They don't overrun your platform with their job posts. You want to attract more clients, because freelancers you got more that you could ever want or need. So your big obstacle is attracting clients, and keeping them. You will not want to punish them in any way, right?

Now look at it from a client's perspective. You might have very different reasons for posting a job. You might look for a freelancer, or you might just want to get a feel how much your project will cost. You might look on different platforms and hire on the other. Your project changed and you abandon it. How would you feel if you were punished in any way for that? Would you gladly return and post another job, or would you go elsewhere?

You might have to realize that upwork is not in the business of making their freelancers happy. They might pretend they are, sometimes, and I believe they are generally nice people trying to run their business the best they know how, but, they aren't. 

[vgshyam]

Hello,

    Ok. Client is putting a job for testing purposes. I do not know that client does not want to hire he/she putting post for testing purpose only. why should I waste my connects? In that situation, I should get my connect refund if job is expired.

[petra_r]

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Ghanshyam V wrote:

Hello,

In that situation, I should get my connect refund if job is expired.

---

You can not force clients to hire someone or pay. They simply go elsewhere and are lost to the platform and the freelancers. Anything that chases clients from the platform is bad for freelancers, which is why the platforms aren't stupid enough to do it. It's as simple as that.

Would you even go into a shoe shop if you knew you'd have to pay if you don't buy a pair of shoes?

Do you think the shoe shop gets their running expenses back if potential customers don't buy any shoes?

[moonraker]

It's a problem that does need solving, in my opinion. 

Also in my opinion: That absolutely should not mean charging clients or doing anything else that might discourage clients from putting more money into the platform. 

[davidcmarcus · Accepted solution]

the simple solution is to refund the connects AND communicate the connects system with the clients in the first place, which has never been done.

more in this post:

https://community.upwork.com/t5/Freelancers/Inactive-Clients-post-project-and-forgets-about-it/m-p/7...

[feed_my_eyes]

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David M wrote:

the simple solution is to refund the connects AND communicate the connects system with the clients in the first place, which has never been done.

more in this post:

https://community.upwork.com/t5/Freelancers/Inactive-Clients-post-project-and-forgets-about-it/m-p/7...

---

Connects used to be free, with the result that clients were inundated with bids. The bids were often from people who had no qualifications for the job, but since it wasn't costing them anything to apply, hey, why not take a chance. Upwork's feedback was that clients were less likely to hire when that happened, so they brought in the paid connects. As for returning the connects when clients didn't hire, they recently tried this as a test, and from what I saw, freelancers again spammed clients if they thought that they'd get their connects back. (Some also spent a considerable amount of time pestering customer service if they didn't get their connects back every single time - even when the client hired somebody else.)

As for telling clients that connects cost money - how would that help? In Petra's example about the shoe shop, how would you like it if you were in the store but couldn't find anything that fit you, then the owner said that you had to buy something because his electricity bill had increased in the past month? When I do business with someone, I expect them to charge rates that will compensate them adequately for their expenses; otherwise, they're not a very good businessperson. 

[davidcmarcus]

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Christine A wrote:

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David M wrote:

the simple solution is to refund the connects AND communicate the connects system with the clients in the first place, which has never been done.

more in this post:

https://community.upwork.com/t5/Freelancers/Inactive-Clients-post-project-and-forgets-about-it/m-p/7...

---

Connects used to be free, with the result that clients were inundated with bids. The bids were often from people who had no qualifications for the job, but since it wasn't costing them anything to apply, hey, why not take a chance. Upwork's feedback was that clients were less likely to hire when that happened, so they brought in the paid connects.

I'm well aware of that having been on the platform since it started.

Unfortunately even since the trial is over, I'm still seeing 50+ applications on the majority of jobs I've applied to, and this is within 30 minutes of them being posted.

So I agree with the reasoning behind it, but not when a client hasn't hired anyone nor bothered to give any feedback.

As for returning the connects when clients didn't hire, they recently tried this as a test, and from what I saw, freelancers again spammed clients if they thought that they'd get their connects back. (Some also spent a considerable amount of time pestering customer service if they didn't get their connects back every single time - even when the client hired somebody else.)

I was one of them who pestered CS and many times I did get my money back, even before the trial.

As for telling clients that connects cost money - how would that help?

The clients I have told immediately closed their job posting and notified all the candidates why they weren't selected.  If you were a client and knew the system, you'd probably select someone quicker or at least have the common decency to respond, but if it's free to post and nobody is saying anything, then nothing will change.

In Petra's example about the shoe shop, how would you like it if you were in the store but couldn't find anything that fit you, then the owner said that you had to buy something because his electricity bill had increased in the past month?

Upwork is not a shoe shop, but using that analogy, if each FL is a shoe on the shelf, and the clients walk in to select a shoe, the shoe shop wouldn't let the same customer in repeatedly if they kept trying on shoes and left the shop.  It's very easy for Upwork to see how often customers buy shoes, and once there's a pattern, just like a shoe shop they have a right of admission to refuse to allow the client entry, or to charge the client to try on shoes.  As for electricity bill, Upwork already charges monthly subscriptions to both FL and client, as well as taking 20% in most cases as a commission, and charging for withdrawals, bank fees, bad currency rates etc.

When I do business with someone, I expect them to charge rates that will compensate them adequately for their expenses; otherwise, they're not a very good businessperson. 

I do the same, which is why I explain to my clients before they've hired me why my rates are structured the way they are, by highlighting Upworks commission system and encouraging them to keep hiring the same FLs as the rate comes down considerably after the $500 and $10,000 milestones.  I'll have to now also include a brief spiel about the connects system, especially to the new clients or those with low hiring percentages but a long history, as I truly believe the more informed, the better.

If the client has an issue with connects, hopefully they'll let Upwork know, and if enough clients make a fuss, things will have to change.

I've had to persuade clients to not leave the platform when the commissions doubled a few years back, and I'll do the same in this case.

---

On Upworks about page is the following:

Upwork's mission

To create economic opportunities so people have better lives.

Upwork’s values

• Put our community first.
• Inspire a boundless future of work.
• Build amazing teams.
• Have a bias towards action.

I see them creating new economic opportunities so shareholders get more dividends.

I don't see the community coming first here.

I see zero bias towards action.

[feed_my_eyes]

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David M wrote:

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Christine A wrote:

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On Upworks about page is the following:

Upwork's mission

To create economic opportunities so people have better lives.

Upwork’s values

• Put our community first.
• Inspire a boundless future of work.
• Build amazing teams.
• Have a bias towards action.

I see them creating new economic opportunities so shareholders get more dividends.

I don't see the community coming first here.

I see zero bias towards action.

---

Of course their mission is to make money for their shareholders - they're a business, not a charity. I would expect Upwork to make decisions that will increase their profits; penalising clients, guilt-tripping them or giving them hoops to jump through will not help to achieve that goal.

[tech_bk]

Hi,

  I would like to add on to Ghanshyam post here . Once you submit proposal and client never comes back (even after 10-15 days) , instead of wasting my connects shouldn't there be time period within which the Client should respond or hire someone? if Time lapsed the connects should be refunded back to the respective user. I have faced multiple scenario where Client never hired anyone also last seen shows 15 days or more. Why do I have to waste my connects in such scenario , instead of that I can use my connects to submit proposal to the other jobs, where Client is responsive and need of service. Please take this concern seriously.

 Also once I withdrew the proposal (because of no response for more than a week also Job is not expired) why don't i get my connects back even after withdrewal? one more concern.

[vgshyam]

Hello,

        Thank you for your support. I also faced that issue. I forgot to add that one. I think We need to get a better option like we can change the platform. There are lots of platforms available in market for freelancing.

This is totally wasting money because first, we need to pay to get connects then the client did not response till 15 days then we waste ours connects.

[feed_my_eyes]

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Ghanshyam V wrote:

I think We need to get a better option like we can change the platform. There are lots of platforms available in market for freelancing.

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Yes, there are, and nobody is preventing you from using other platforms. You can use as many as you like. 

[tech_bk]

Hi Ghanshyam,

   I totally agree with you. I have many connects like that , still stuck in proposal where client has never come back (more than 2 weeks) , nor it shows they hired someone.  In such scenario Freelancer should get their connects back once they withdraw their proposal or automatically after time period if no action from Client. This I am not sure why system is not in place for such scenario. 

 Also as one of the Community member replied to your post, some client put up Job posting for testing, well how do we know that? All Job posting seems that Client is in need of service urgently and we submit proposal and end up with less connects and are asked to buy more connects. 😞

[shivakibl]

I'm new to this community. Its Good that Upwork is doing a great job. Everyone does it for business. All Good.
In client's prospective yes. He shouldn't be charged for window shopping and at the same time FL shouldn't be charged for buying connects for every bid.

I wish If a client do not respond or do not hire anyone even after one month without any response.

I think it is better to refund connects to FL. That way FL is also protected and there is no force to a client to buy something also.

Anyway FL and client are being charged monthly subscription serious clients and serious FL.

[kochubei_valeria]

Hi All,

A number of posts have been removed from this thread as they were off topic. 

A few things I'd like to address.

I'd like to confirm that Upwork doesn't collaborate with clients to post jobs that don't intend to hire. We would love to see as many jobs as possible resulting in hires and successfully completed contracts. However, there are various reasons why clients may not hire for a job posting they publish and many of those possible reasons have been mentioned on this thread. 

I'm not aware of any plans to start charging clients if they do not hire for a job they post.

Connects are only refunded if the job is closed by the client without a hire or cancelled by Upwork for violating the TOS. If there are any tests or permanent changes around that, we'll make sure to communicate them to our users.

[joelibarra]

But that is the problem, the connects will only be refunded if the client closes the job posting, which never happens most of the time. They just let the job there without any hire, nor interaction with the freelancers.

I suggest that all job posting will have an automatic closing period if the client did not hire before that. Let say within 2 weeks, if the client has no hire in the job posting, all "connects" of all the freelancers who submitted proposals are automatically refunded, and the job closes.

I have lost more than 20 connects to this kind of job posting.

[geri_kol]

This topic keeps popping up in the forum on a regular basis and the same three or four "community gurus" always jump to Upwork´s defense, although it is obvious that spending Connects on job posts that do not close proactively nor hire anyone is a problem for many people. Yes, it is a problem for many and not just for the odd freelancer whose English is not that great or who is still "finding their feet" on the platform, and my guess is that it is at least as much due to the poor quality of clients as due to the low quality of freelancers, as some have suggested. In reality, the way Upwork´s Connects system is designed consistently jips money from anyone but the most successful freelancers simply because of the sheer number of abandoned or unattended job posts. If the volume of such posts could be kept within reasonable limits, perhaps it wouldn´t be such an issue - but the fact is that such posts are abundant. It can´t all be due to the "poor quality of freelancers" discouraging clients to hire. 

In any case, personally I don´t have a problem with unreturned Connects since I charge "top shelf" hourly rates and only work with high-value clients, most of whom are also long-term, so I can afford to lose 12, 30, or 100 Connects due to abandoned job posts. But just because it doesn´t affect me doesn´t mean I can´t see how it can be a serious barrier for people in countries where $3 might be a day´s worth of work. So let´s not be heartless classists using management speak ("think of it as a marketing expense!", "build it into your hourly rate!", etc, etc), when this is obviously a nickel-and-diming feature baked into the system. I am not in favor of charging clients either, but as someone above suggested, Upwork can at least automate the closing of jobs with no hire within 2-3 weeks, communicate periodically to clients the external costs associated with unattended job posts, and just do the ethical thing. I am sure it will keep making a healthy profit from commissions even without shaking down people´s virtual pockets for coins (ahem, Connects).