So Upwork now provides refunds on hourly projects without discussion with the freelancer??????

[wlyonsatl]

I've received a form that is new to me regarding giving a client a refund on hours properly booked using TimeTracker without authorization from me. I absolutely do NOT agree this client should receive any refund just because he's run out of money well below his original stated budget.

What's going on here, Upwork? This approach is just plain wrong - does hourly payment protection not exist any more?

Below is what I see in this new message on the project's message board:

Give refund
Invoices
Invoice for 11/13/2023-11/19/2023 - 10:10 hrs @ $89.00/hr
$904.83
$904.83
Refund total amount
$904.83

Your current balance
$0.00

Your balance will be debited
$814.35
Includes credit for Upwork service fee
Note to client
Let the client know why you’re giving this refund.
5000/5000

You can enter up to 5000 characters5000 remaining
Note to self (optional)

[PradeepH]

Hi Will,

I am sorry to hear how you feel about the refund request. I checked the transaction you are referring to and noticed that this refund request has been initiated by your client. If you disagree with the refund request, you have the option to communicate with them and explain your reasons. You can use the message center to contact your client and try to resolve the issue amicably. Feel free to message us if you need further assistance.

- Pradeep

[wlyonsatl]

Pradeep,

Thanks for your note.

I have already notified the client via the project's message board that I do NOT agree with providing him any refund.

How do I get to the "message center" to notify both the client and Upwork in this regard.

Will

[AveryO]

Hi, Will and everyone, following the discussion, 

If a client requests a refund, freelancers have the option of taking no action on the request. Or if freelancer agrees to a refund, they can also adjust the amount of the refund if needed. Ideally, the client will discuss the matter with the freelancer before they send a refund request so that the client and freelancer can both reach an agreement. If they don't, the freelancer can still contact them to discuss their concerns and try to reach an agreement.

Will, I can see that you responded to the client about their refund request. If you don't reach an agreement, your client may be able to file a dispute if it is within the dispute period for the hourly contract. Here's more information if the client disputes your hours. 

I hope this helps. Our team will also note this thread and share it as feedback. 

[wlyonsatl]

Thank you, as always, for some clarity, Avery.

I'll wait to hear from Upwork or the client in regards to a resolution.

[elisa_b]

"Let the client know why you’re giving this refund."

What?!

[feed_my_eyes]

---

Elisa B wrote:

"Let the client know why you’re giving this refund."

What?!

---

Yes, the language assumes that the freelancer is in favour of giving a refund, or even that it was their idea in the first place, and there's nothing to suggest that you can refuse. Totally inappropriate.

[melroen]

Hi Will,

This is disconcerting if this is a new policy. I'm sorry this happened to you.  Could the client have done a chargeback?

[feed_my_eyes]

---

Melissa R wrote:

Hi Will,

This is disconcerting if this is a new policy. I'm sorry this happened to you.  Could the client have done a chargeback?

---

Not if they're asking for a refund, and in any case Upwork is supposed to cover the payment if a client defaults on a properly tracked hourly contract. They haven't refused to do so (yet), but it's weird to send a form implying that the freelancer has already agreed to a refund request. It could be just their usual awkward wording, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Upwork is taking steps towards withdrawing hourly payment protection entirely.

[wlyonsatl]

I hope you're right about the poor structure and wording, which appear to assume the freelancer will be happy to make a refund and so this form helpfully gives the freelancer the impression that documenting the refund should be the freelancer's primary goal.

I hope clicking the "Cancel" button is what notifies Upwork and the client the freelancer does not agree to a refund. We'll see.

This particular client shut the project down because he was running out of "budget" (aka money) despite the fact I quoted, and he originally agreed to, a 15 - 20 hour range of time needed to complete the work. We were at slightly under 12 hours when he said he wanted a refund because the work I was doing was not useful to him.

Well, duh. The work wasn't complete.

[feed_my_eyes]

---

Will L wrote:

I hope you're right about the poor structure and wording, which appear to assume the freelancer will be happy to make a refund and so this form helpfully gives the freelancer the impression that documenting the refund should be the freelancer's primary goal.

---

It does give that impression. I wonder if Upwork is hoping that freelancers will go along with returning the money so that they don't have to cover the payment? 

---

Will L wrote:

I hope clicking the "Cancel" button is what notifies Upwork and the client the freelancer does not agree to a refund. We'll see.

---

IDK - Pradeep says that you should message the client and resolve it, but presumably you've been communicating with them about the project all along. There's no mediation process for hourly jobs, is there? Keep us posted.

[wlyonsatl]

I think a new freelancer, or a freelancer whose first language is not English, could easily misinterpret this notice of refund as notification of a fait accompli rather than a client "request" the freelancer can refuse to agree to.

The client notified me last Thursday via the project message board (he avoided phone calls throughout the project) that he wanted a refund. On Saturday I received this deceptive notice of his claim of a refund.

I replied directly to the client in writing on the project message board yesterday (Sunday) that I would not agree to any refund.

I clicked the "Cancel" button on the notice, which I hope notifies Upwork I do not agree to any refund. A button that said something like "Refuse Refund" would be a lot clearer in its meaning. (I can't "cancel" a request I didn't make.)

[melroen]

Thanks, Christine. I appreciate your clarification. Although I haven't been on Upwork long enough to experience a refund request ( yet!), knowledge is power. Forewarned is forearmed.

[wlyonsatl]

Yes, Melissa R.

The more you document before a contract begins, the better. You should, as circumstances allow, establish a timeline and range of billable time you expect a project to take, create a detailed outline of the expected deliverables, etc.

If a prospective client isn't enthusiastic about clearly defining the project, think twice about working with them.

And review previous freelancers' feedback carefully.

And don't use manual hours with a client you don't already know well and trust completely, even if the client "allows" them. Manual hours are not protected by what I used to think was Upwork's excellent hourly payment protection.

[melroen]

Thank you, Will, for taking the time to advise on how to manage a client's expectations before and during a contract to minimize disputes.

Especially, since you're going through this dispute process. It's very much appreciated.

[bobafett999]

Deleted....repeat of what Christine wrote.

[wlyonsatl]

Why does this Upwork page close within about half a second of being opened?

https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/211062088-Request-a-refund

[bobafett999]

Try on phone.  Doesn't happen to me

[joansands]

Clients come first with Upwork, it seems.

[spectralua]

At first, upwork robbed newcomers this way. Then from poor countries. Then he switched to successful freelancers. Will from the USA with earnings of half a million, this is the last stage, which means everyone was robbed. 🤔

But, before they simply took the money without negotiations. Maybe negotiation possible for US located peoples because them able to involve goverment.

[feed_my_eyes]

Calm down - nobody has been robbed. 

[spectralua]

I been. Look like same situation waiting for all soon. Will wasn't, for a while. But we can see where Upwork moving to.

[wlyonsatl]

Mykola,

I haven't yet experienced a loss due to this client's refund request.

My only complaint so far is that Upwork's notification of the client's request is deceptive in its structure and its wording. I will not agree to any refund.

Upwork's own verbiage in the page I linked to above says, the client "can only dispute the current invoice, not past invoices." Confusingly, that page also says Upwork Dispute assistance is available "if the last payment on a contract was within the previous 30 days."

We'll see how much payment protection is actually applicable in this case. The last time a client told me she couldn't afford to pay for me to complete my work for her, despite the project being well under our agreed budget. my payments already received were fully protected by Upwork. 

I have no reason to expect this case to turn out differently.

[spectralua]

I hope it will be resolved.

But what I’m saying is that there was no such functionality before. Now it is. Why it was added? To gain some additional money. Like other new things added last times.

Pls let us know about results: canceled or forced to refund.