Solved: TOS Change Never Announced? - Page 2

a_lipsey · ‎09-25-2022

I have been searching through the forum to find the announcement that informs us of a TOS change regarding the opt-out fee. It appears that in early July, Upwork changed the TOS to state that now after the two-year mark, if we want to work outside Upwork with a client (get paid outside) a min $1 fee has to be paid versus it simply being at our discretion to do so. Previously, prior to the 2 year mark there was a substantial opt out fee, but after the 2 years, it was at our own discretion with no fee. Now it appears the process has been changed per the TOS and no notification to freelancers that Upwork has changed the TOS.

So why hasn't Upwork made this change more broadly public? I looked through the Product Updates, the Announcements, and Feedback, and there is nothing about this change.

wescowley · ‎09-28-2022

I’m late to this thread thanks to hurricane prep and trying to push as much work out the door before I lose power, and I wouldn’t even post this, but from Stan’s and Valeria’s responses, it’s not clear to me at all that y’all get why some of us are bothered by this.

This change was and continues to be extremely poorly communicated and it’s still very unclear to me whether completing this form and paying the dollar for long-term relationships is required.

Many (most?) of the people posting in this thread are ones that pay close attention to Upwork’s terms because the service is important to our businesses. We encourage newbies to pay attention to the terms, both in these forums and in others. Stan, you said that 1% of SaaS users read the terms. I don’t doubt that. Upwork is not a SaaS. If Airtable, for example, blocks me because I violated terms I haven’t read, I don’t care. If Upwork does so, I care, because it’s the source of a large chunk of my revenue. But I don’t reread the terms constantly. I (apparently foolishly) rely on Upwork to post meaningful updates to trigger me to review them again.

Up until this change, the wording on the help pages regarding taking clients off Upwork said something like after two years we are encouraged to let support know, and I remember seeing similar wording from staff in the forum. But “encouraged" is not a requirement.

As many have pointed out, the update that Valeria linked to said nothing about requiring >2 relationships to go through the process and pay a token fee. (To be clear, I don’t care about the $1.)

So yes, when I saw that announcement, I went to the terms. From user agreement section 7:

You agree to communicate through the Site and make and receive payments only through the Site for two years from the date you first identify or meet your Client or Freelancer on the Site, unless you pay a Conversion Fee.

From this, it’s clear that the conversion fee applies for clients within two years. Not after.

From 7.1:

Therefore, except as set out in Section 7.2, for 24 months from the start of an Upwork Relationship (the “Non-Circumvention Period”), you agree to use the Site as your exclusive method to request, make, and receive all payments for work directly or indirectly with that person or arising from that relationship and not to circumvent the Payment Methods offered on the Site unless you pay a fee to take the relationship off of the Site (the “**Conversion Fee**”).

Again, from this it’s clear that that the fee applies within the first two years. Not after.

From 7.3:

You may opt out of the obligations in Section 7.1 with respect to each Upwork Relationship only if the Client or Freelancer pays Upwork a Conversion Fee which is a minimum of $1,000 USD and up to $50,000 USD for each Upwork Relationship, unless Client and Freelancer have had an Upwork Relationship for at least two (2) years.

Again, this is clear that the fee applies only within the two years.

And then later in 7.3:

If Client and Freelancer have had an Upwork Relationship for at least two (2) years, the Conversion Fee is a nominal $1 USD for administrative purposes.

Here we have a mention of the token fee. But everything above tells me the conversion fee only applies in the first two years.

So we go to the help article about the fee that Valeria linked to. The first FAQ “What’s the Conversion Fee?” starts with:

When you use Upwork to find a freelancer, we require you to use the Upwork platform to pay that freelancer for any work they complete for you for the following two years.

Again, this tells me this page applies to relationships within two years.

and

By paying the Conversion Fee, you can move your payments outside of Upwork without violating our Terms of Service (TOS).

So this says the conversion fee allows me to take payments outside of the platform without breaking TOS. Fine, but the TOS applies to < 2 years, not after. So why would I think the conversion fee applies?

Later, in the FAQ “I heard there were changes to the Terms of Service; what were those?” the full answer is:

We’ve recently made new updates to our Terms of Service that impacts users who may want to take their relationship outside of Upwork. The Conversion Fee is now 13.5% of estimated 12 month earnings and calculated differently for hourly and fixed-price projects. The Conversion Fee was formerly called the “Opt-Out Fee.”

This should explain all the changes to the TOS, but there’s nothing here about the change needing to go through the process after 2 years.

It’s only in the last question, “Are there exceptions to the Conversion Fee?“ is the need to submit the form for the $1 fee mentioned. But after all of the above, Why would we even read that far? Especially when the terms state in multiple places that the conversion fee applies within two years, not after.

So, if I take a long-term client off Upwork using my old process of “hey, we’ve been here > 2 years, let’s switch to direct-bill and be done with it”, am I breaking the TOS? I don’t think so, but I honestly can’t tell from the current TOS and help pages.

Circling back: You have a group of relatively high-earning freelancers (and hence high fee) who want to follow Upwork’s rules because it’s important to us that we are able to continue using the platform, but y’all have made it difficult for us to tell when the rules change and in this case even what the rule is.

And, like I said, this same group of freelancers I’m talking about encourages newbies to read the TOS to stay within the rules. But the impression I get from Stan’s post is “most users don’t read the TOS so why are they a big deal” and that providing adequate notice of changes is a cultural thing.

If Upwork doesn’t care about the terms, and doesn’t care if its users know about them and follow them, why should we?

View solution in original post

a_lipsey · ‎09-27-2022

Hi Stan, so when can we expect a formal communication from Upwork about this? Because right now the only people who know are those of us who saw this thread on the forum, or those who happened to be looking at those help pages. Thousands of freelancers who are doing their work and possibly coming up on a two year mark and wanting to take clients off Upwork still have not been informed that the rules have changed.

Noncircumvention is the cardinal rule of Upwork. It's the worst rule to break. And here y'all are, having CHANGED the noncircumvention rules, and have yet to make any kind of formal announcement. Not even a blog post.

I'm not sure why you say that because users aren't browsing the TOS as often as other places on the site that they wouldn't want to know about a change to the MOST IMPORTANT rule. Maybe because you don't have to worry about your account being put in jeopardy and losing your source of income.

You mention a change log: I don't even know where that is. Nowhere has Upwork advertised to me to subscribe to a change log, but I am subscribed to every single marketing email and every kind of email notification from Upwork. I tried subscribing to the Updates and Product Announcements but the notifications never come. So I simply have to check from time to time to stay aware.

You're right it's a major cultural problem that you don't think you should communicate TOS changes to freelancers. It's a sketchy culture that does that. If your team really thinks "why would anyone care" then you don't understand freelancing in the slightest and maybe the people who say/think that should not be working on this platform, respectfully.

I really don't understand what takes so long as you refer to "making a shift into 2023". You need to notify freelancers of changes to the TOS. It's as simple as that. Does the TOS really change that often that it's not possible to send out a notification? Previously when it was changed there was a whole post about it here, and that was just making it more plain language.

I have to tell you quite frankly that your responses raise more concerns and questions than they answer.

martina_plaschka · ‎09-27-2022

There are lots of freelancers active in the forum, myself among them, that tell the people that come here on a daily basis to report scams, in a more or less direct manner, that they would have been safe from 99,9% of scams if they had only read and complied with the ToS.

The argument being: you should not be using upwork not knowing the ToS. You confirmed you read the ToS when you signed up.

It is surprising and disheartening to learn that upwork does care less about their ToS than we do.

a_lipsey · ‎09-27-2022

Martina P wrote:
There are lots of freelancers active in the forum, myself among them, that tell the people that come here on a daily basis to report scams, in a more or less direct manner, that they would have been safe from 99,9% of scams if they had only read and complied with the ToS.
The argument being: you should not be using upwork not knowing the ToS. You confirmed you read the ToS when you signed up.
It is surprising and disheartening to learn that upwork does care less about their ToS than we do.

They care about it when we violate it and they decide to ban us.

the-right-writer · ‎09-27-2022

Agreed.

renata101 · ‎09-28-2022

Hey Stan,

I've noticed a common pattern in your team's responses to "the Community" whenever people want to discuss a serious oversight. Comments that will get you the most irritated and exasperated returns are as follows:

1) Any comment that implies (or outright states) that an oversight is someone else's job.
2) Any comment that implies (or outright states) that it's really the problem of the person complaining about an oversight that they're having a problem with the oversight.

People responding on this thread have clearly indicated which statements those are. If you're not doing this intentionally and would like to improve communication with the community, you might want to take a look.

wescowley · ‎09-28-2022

I’m late to this thread thanks to hurricane prep and trying to push as much work out the door before I lose power, and I wouldn’t even post this, but from Stan’s and Valeria’s responses, it’s not clear to me at all that y’all get why some of us are bothered by this.

This change was and continues to be extremely poorly communicated and it’s still very unclear to me whether completing this form and paying the dollar for long-term relationships is required.

Many (most?) of the people posting in this thread are ones that pay close attention to Upwork’s terms because the service is important to our businesses. We encourage newbies to pay attention to the terms, both in these forums and in others. Stan, you said that 1% of SaaS users read the terms. I don’t doubt that. Upwork is not a SaaS. If Airtable, for example, blocks me because I violated terms I haven’t read, I don’t care. If Upwork does so, I care, because it’s the source of a large chunk of my revenue. But I don’t reread the terms constantly. I (apparently foolishly) rely on Upwork to post meaningful updates to trigger me to review them again.

Up until this change, the wording on the help pages regarding taking clients off Upwork said something like after two years we are encouraged to let support know, and I remember seeing similar wording from staff in the forum. But “encouraged" is not a requirement.

As many have pointed out, the update that Valeria linked to said nothing about requiring >2 relationships to go through the process and pay a token fee. (To be clear, I don’t care about the $1.)

So yes, when I saw that announcement, I went to the terms. From user agreement section 7:

You agree to communicate through the Site and make and receive payments only through the Site for two years from the date you first identify or meet your Client or Freelancer on the Site, unless you pay a Conversion Fee.

From this, it’s clear that the conversion fee applies for clients within two years. Not after.

From 7.1:

Therefore, except as set out in Section 7.2, for 24 months from the start of an Upwork Relationship (the “Non-Circumvention Period”), you agree to use the Site as your exclusive method to request, make, and receive all payments for work directly or indirectly with that person or arising from that relationship and not to circumvent the Payment Methods offered on the Site unless you pay a fee to take the relationship off of the Site (the “**Conversion Fee**”).

Again, from this it’s clear that that the fee applies within the first two years. Not after.

From 7.3:

You may opt out of the obligations in Section 7.1 with respect to each Upwork Relationship only if the Client or Freelancer pays Upwork a Conversion Fee which is a minimum of $1,000 USD and up to $50,000 USD for each Upwork Relationship, unless Client and Freelancer have had an Upwork Relationship for at least two (2) years.

Again, this is clear that the fee applies only within the two years.

And then later in 7.3:

If Client and Freelancer have had an Upwork Relationship for at least two (2) years, the Conversion Fee is a nominal $1 USD for administrative purposes.

Here we have a mention of the token fee. But everything above tells me the conversion fee only applies in the first two years.

So we go to the help article about the fee that Valeria linked to. The first FAQ “What’s the Conversion Fee?” starts with:

When you use Upwork to find a freelancer, we require you to use the Upwork platform to pay that freelancer for any work they complete for you for the following two years.

Again, this tells me this page applies to relationships within two years.

and

By paying the Conversion Fee, you can move your payments outside of Upwork without violating our Terms of Service (TOS).

So this says the conversion fee allows me to take payments outside of the platform without breaking TOS. Fine, but the TOS applies to < 2 years, not after. So why would I think the conversion fee applies?

Later, in the FAQ “I heard there were changes to the Terms of Service; what were those?” the full answer is:

We’ve recently made new updates to our Terms of Service that impacts users who may want to take their relationship outside of Upwork. The Conversion Fee is now 13.5% of estimated 12 month earnings and calculated differently for hourly and fixed-price projects. The Conversion Fee was formerly called the “Opt-Out Fee.”

This should explain all the changes to the TOS, but there’s nothing here about the change needing to go through the process after 2 years.

It’s only in the last question, “Are there exceptions to the Conversion Fee?“ is the need to submit the form for the $1 fee mentioned. But after all of the above, Why would we even read that far? Especially when the terms state in multiple places that the conversion fee applies within two years, not after.

So, if I take a long-term client off Upwork using my old process of “hey, we’ve been here > 2 years, let’s switch to direct-bill and be done with it”, am I breaking the TOS? I don’t think so, but I honestly can’t tell from the current TOS and help pages.

Circling back: You have a group of relatively high-earning freelancers (and hence high fee) who want to follow Upwork’s rules because it’s important to us that we are able to continue using the platform, but y’all have made it difficult for us to tell when the rules change and in this case even what the rule is.

And, like I said, this same group of freelancers I’m talking about encourages newbies to read the TOS to stay within the rules. But the impression I get from Stan’s post is “most users don’t read the TOS so why are they a big deal” and that providing adequate notice of changes is a cultural thing.

If Upwork doesn’t care about the terms, and doesn’t care if its users know about them and follow them, why should we?

renata101 · ‎09-29-2022

Stan G wrote:

From a more general perspective (Not specitic to TOS) - You would think it's as simple as workflow problems, but most of the time, it's a cultural thing - Many teams don't understand why anyone would care we are making a change. There is no negative intentions, but all the time we hear internally "Why would anyone care" or "That was so minor, who would even notice", followed by 100 replies in Community about said minor change. I'm hopeful we're starting to make a shift you and others will see especially going into 2023.

While at first glance that comment seems like a yet another blame shift, I honestly believe in your assessment of Upwork's culture because I see examples of it all the time. Mistakes and oversights don't matter. Poor communication doesn't matter. Lack of attention to details (big and small) doesn't matter.

Starting to make the shift? And that's coming in 2023? Wow. If our clients had to wait that long for us to start to make a shift towards a higher standard of performance, we’d all be out of business because this is a very competitive platform and we’re living through some economically sensitive times. And that might be what's at the heart of the disconnect that's apparent every time this crew gets into a big flap about something your “culture” deems unimportant. Details matter to us, especially legal ones that have a potential effect on our livelihoods. I’m not sure why it would require a large cognitive leap or a seismic cultural shift for anyone to understand that.

Everyone who's commented on this thread gets a performance rating on every project they do. So you're not talking to an audience that's particularly understanding about what comes across as an entrenched lack of professionality and a lack of ability to tune into what Upwork’s freelance clients (us) need from you.

An important thought to consider: A lack of negative intentions doesn't equal absence of negative outcomes.

elisa_b · ‎09-25-2022

Whenever my bank changes its ToS or Privacy Statement, I receive an email with the new document(s) attached, or a link where I can review them.

The new parts are bolded or highlighted, while the suppressed parts are crossed out. The only obstacle keeping me from being updated is my own laziness.

@Upwork, it shouldn't be too hard to follow this good practice.

a_lipsey · ‎09-26-2022

Just bumping this so other freelancers frequenting the forum can see that TOS change that has not been announced by Upwork.

prestonhunter · ‎09-26-2022

A one dollar fee?

It's just legal / lawyer stuff. Not meant to apply to how regular, everyday people use Upwork.

If I had been person in charge of Upwork messaging and notifications, I wouldn't have announced this to anybody.

Like many freelancers, I don't move contracts off of Upwork after hitting the 2-year mark. So it certainly doesn't apply to me.

m_terrazas · ‎09-26-2022

Preston H wrote:
A one dollar fee?
It's just legal / lawyer stuff. Not meant to apply to how regular, everyday people use Upwork.

If I had been person in charge of Upwork messaging and notifications, I wouldn't have announced this to anybody.

Like many freelancers, I don't move contrats off of Upwork after hitting the 2-year mark. So it certainly doesn't apply to me.

Since it doesn't affect you, it doesn't matter. Oh!
Well, it's a good thing you don't take care of messages and notifications, we got on pretty badly without you.
And here we are not dealing with whether it is a dollar or 100.

Unless it's all sarcasm and I didn't understand it.

prestonhunter · ‎09-26-2022

re: "Since it doesn't affect you, it doesn't matter."

A one dollar fee requested after a two-year period of working together in order to move off platform isn't meant to affect anyone. If Upwork wasn't even planning on announcing it or making any software/database changes to accommodate it, then it means they were not planning to actually collect it. It's a legal thing. A maneuver.

I assume that Upwork policies and TOS change all the time in minor ways without announcements being sent to anyone. If the changes are substantive or if Upwork wants its users to do something different, they'll send notifications. Something like this? This would be the type of thing I would expect no notifications for.

kfarnell · ‎09-26-2022

Preston H wrote:
This would be the type of thing I would expect no notifications for.

You do you, but I want to know when a contract I'm party to changes in any way. I want to know if I could be thrown off the platform for breaking a new rule.

gilbert-phyllis · ‎09-26-2022

Preston, the $1 fee is beside the point. The issue is that we are now required to step through a disengagement procedure when moving off-platform with a client, even if the relationship has passed the two-year mark, otherwise we'll be in violation of the ToS and nobody told us this. Before, we could simply walk away. Speaking strictly for myself, the change is not that odious -- although it is annoying, since the only reason I would (or have) left the platform with a long-term client was if the client was fed up with the clunky UI and didn't want to deal with it any more, and now in that circumstance I'll have to persuade them to do a little disengagement dance (and pay $1 for the privilege). I don't begrudge UW the $1 (and suspect it's legally mandated somehow, otherwise why on earth would they bother collecting it) or the chance to track who's leaving and when. The problem is they didn't tell us about the change, which sets up us diligent rule-followers to unwittingly break ToS and put ourselves in the soup.

prestonhunter · ‎09-26-2022

But you are making an assumption that just because this change appears in the online TOS document, that Upwork now requires us to step through a disengagement process in order to go off-platform.

I make no such assumption.

Is there a user interface module for such disengagement?
Have changes been made to the database schema to accommodate such disengagement?
Have changes been made to the application source code and user interface?
Have Upwork personnel been informed about this?

Has this been announced to users?
Is there any effort to ask users to do this? Or enforce it?

I think what was seen was a just something added by someone on the legal team, and was not an actual change in what Upwork is requiring users to do.

I understand that many people might find this unsettling. But that is the reality we live in: Upwork's TOS is one piece of the total Upwork picture, but it is not the total picture. It is not the basis for everything that Upwork employees do, and it is not read and actively acted upon by Upwork's application source code.

kfarnell · ‎09-26-2022

Preston H wrote:
But you are making an assumption that just because this change appears in the online TOS document, that Upwork now requires us to step through a disengagement process in order to go off-platform.

It's not unreasonable to assume that Upwork intends to follow its own terms of service.

I make no such assumption.

Is there a user interface module for such disengagement?

The method is outlined in the help article.

Have changes been made to the database schema to accommodate such disengagement?
Have changes been made to the application source code and user interface?

Changes aren't needed. The method existed for those who wanted to pay the fee previously and now applies to more people.

Have Upwork personnel been informed about this?
Has this been announced to users?

No. That's the whole point of this thread. Are you suggesting people here are lying about not having been informed?

Is there any effort to ask users to do this? Or enforce it?

I think what was seen was a just something added by someone on the legal team, and was not an actual change in what Upwork is requiring users to do.

It doesn't matter who originated the change, but it is an actual change. It isn't an invisible change or one that several people here made up before getting together to organise pretending it exists when it doesn't.

I understand that many people might find this unsettling. But that is the reality we live in: Upwork's TOS is one piece of the total Upwork picture, but it is not the total picture. It is not the basis for everything that Upwork employees do, and it is not read and actively acted upon by Upwork's application source code.

Source code has nothing to do with the price of fish. If Upwork employees don't base what they do on the terms of service, there's a much bigger legal issue at stake.

prestonhunter · ‎09-26-2022

EDITED TO ADD:

I just saw that the Help document has been edited to include reference to the $1 fee.

https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/360043210654-Move-Outside-of-Upwork

That is a significant point.

This modification of the Help document and apparent introduction of a procedure for disengagement lends credence to the idea that this is intended as a real change.

I still think it is primarily a legal maneuver. But those two things ("legal maneuver" and "real change") are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

For the sake of following the thread, and discussing the broader topics touched upon beyond this specific example, I will leave my other posts in this thread in place, and leave the rest of the post below alone.

========

There is no "bigger legal issue at stake."

This is a website and online platform. Source code has a primacy and importance that you seem to be discounting. As a website, Upwork is governed by source code. It is not governed by the TOS document.

Upwork - as users experience it - is also a result of how Upwork employees operate. That is not necessarily a result of what is in the TOS document. Upwork employees and representatives are not constantly reading Upwork TOS and consciously thinking about how they can apply that document to everything they do. Upwork employees are presented with a user interface with buttons that they can click. And they work based on how they were trained, and how they are encouraged to work based on what their supervisors tell them to do and based on their understanding of internal performance metrics.

That is the same as in any city, state, country, etc. Every person and every business everywhere is in violation of the law. Because there are so many laws, and so many which contradict each other, that it is impossible to not be in violation of the law. It is not enough to find a law that a business is violating among the various local, county, state, federal, international, trade-specific, etc. laws that may have jurisdiction, and then report that business. Doing so does not automatically mean that someone will be arrested or fined or shut down. There must also be a willingness by those in authority to act on the law and take action.

If the TOS says that you can't use the word "telomeres" in your freelancer profile, but there is no software-based filter to prevent such, and when the "infraction" is pointed out, nobody who works for Upwork ever does anything about it... Then does Upwork really prohibit the use of the word "telomeres" in freelancer profiles?

The TOS document is informative. But it is not an operational document. It is not source code. It is not an employee manual.

Something appearing in the TOS document does not necessarily mean that Upwork intends it to be something it's users must do or can't do. There are many things in the TOS which are there for legal reasons, and which are not intended to be operational in nature. There are things in the TOS document which Upwork employees are fully aware exist, but which they do not enforce and which they have been specifically asked by management to not enforce.

Note the location of the TOS document:

http://www.upwork.com/legal

The subdirectory name is literally "legal".

This is not an accident.

researchediting · ‎09-26-2022

Preston H wrote:

...The TOS document is informative. But it is not an operational document. It is not source code. It is not an employee manual.

Something appearing in the TOS document does not necessarily mean that Upwork intends it to be something it's users must do or can't do. There are many things in the TOS which are there for legal reasons, and which are not intended to be operational in nature. There are things in the TOS document which Upwork employees are fully aware exist, but which they do not enforce and which they have been specifically asked by management to not enforce.

Note the location of the TOS document:

http://www.upwork.com/legal

The subdirectory name is literally "legal".
This is not an accident.

Indeed, the subdirectory name "legal" is not an accident. It is where one might expect to find the legal agreement—the contract—that determines users' access to the site, and Upwork's right to terminate that access.

Your intention may have been to relieve the burden of having to comply with, or notice, the terms of service. Thank you for the more valuable public service of relieving us of the burden of paying attention to any further thoughts you have on this or any matters related to our contract with Upwork, and the strictures and risks it entails.

prestonhunter · ‎09-26-2022

You'll probably get a lot of upvotes for that post. But mine was the first.

researchediting · ‎09-26-2022

Preston H wrote:
You'll probably get a lot of upvotes for that post. But mine was the first.

By chance, I noticed. Thank you.

Cheers,

MM

m_terrazas · ‎09-27-2022

Preston H wrote:
EDITED TO ADD:
I just saw that the Help document has been edited to include reference to the $1 fee.

https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/360043210654-Move-Outside-of-Upwork

That is a significant point.
This modification of the Help document and apparent introduction of a procedure for disengagement lends credence to the idea that this is intended as a real change.

I still think it is primarily a legal maneuver. But those two things ("legal maneuver" and "real change") are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

For the sake of following the thread, and discussing the broader topics touched upon beyond this specific example, I will leave my other posts in this thread in place, and leave the rest of the post below alone.
========
There is no "bigger legal issue at stake."

This is a website and online platform. Source code has a primacy and importance that you seem to be discounting. As a website, Upwork is governed by source code. It is not governed by the TOS document.

Upwork - as users experience it - is also a result of how Upwork employees operate. That is not necessarily a result of what is in the TOS document. Upwork employees and representatives are not constantly reading Upwork TOS and consciously thinking about how they can apply that document to everything they do. Upwork employees are presented with a user interface with buttons that they can click. And they work based on how they were trained, and how they are encouraged to work based on what their supervisors tell them to do and based on their understanding of internal performance metrics.

That is the same as in any city, state, country, etc. Every person and every business everywhere is in violation of the law. Because there are so many laws, and so many which contradict each other, that it is impossible to not be in violation of the law. It is not enough to find a law that a business is violating among the various local, county, state, federal, international, trade-specific, etc. laws that may have jurisdiction, and then report that business. Doing so does not automatically mean that someone will be arrested or fined or shut down. There must also be a willingness by those in authority to act on the law and take action.

If the TOS says that you can't use the word "telomeres" in your freelancer profile, but there is no software-based filter to prevent such, and when the "infraction" is pointed out, nobody who works for Upwork ever does anything about it... Then does Upwork really prohibit the use of the word "telomeres" in freelancer profiles?

The TOS document is informative. But it is not an operational document. It is not source code. It is not an employee manual.

Something appearing in the TOS document does not necessarily mean that Upwork intends it to be something it's users must do or can't do. There are many things in the TOS which are there for legal reasons, and which are not intended to be operational in nature. There are things in the TOS document which Upwork employees are fully aware exist, but which they do not enforce and which they have been specifically asked by management to not enforce.

Note the location of the TOS document:

http://www.upwork.com/legal

The subdirectory name is literally "legal".
This is not an accident.

For me, the TOS are the basic rules to work "legally" on the platform (this and any other).
If it is something only informative, why should we stick to them if they may not be taken into account?
I only know that if I break the TOS, my account may be in danger.
I don't know, but reading this, any new freelancer who shows up here might think "wow, then TOS aren't that important". To many freelancers it already seems that they seem unimportant without someone confirming it.

If you think like this, will you tell everyone who complains that they have been scammed (for example) that they have skipped the TOS?

And keep in mind that I don't speak English, so I may have missed any subtlety in your answer.

kfarnell · ‎09-27-2022

Well, yes. It isn't complicated. When you sign onto Upwork you agree to comply with the terms of service . This is a requirement, not an option. You have then established a contract with Upwork. If you breach the terms of that contract, Upwork can take action against you. That action might be a sternly worded email, or it might mean the closure of your account. Not knowing the rules increases the likelihood of your breaching them and having to deal with the consequences.

(Only put here out of sympathy for anyone reading whose wibbly English or low attention span has left them befuddled.)

m_terrazas · ‎09-27-2022

Kim F wrote:
Well, yes. It isn't complicated. When you sign onto Upwork you agree to comply with the terms of service . This is a requirement, not an option. You have then established a contract with Upwork. If you breach the terms of that contract, Upwork can take action against you. That action might be a sternly worded email, or it might mean the closure of your account. Not knowing the rules increases the likelihood of your breaching them and having to deal with the consequences.

(Only put here out of sympathy for anyone reading whose wibbly English or low attention span has left them befuddled.)

👏Thanks for explaining it so clearly.

renata101 · ‎09-27-2022

I'm only moderately befuddled on bad days, but do love clear a explanation. I think I'm going to save that one and use it the next time a newbie Upworker posts about being scammed. I believe those are the 99% Stan aluded to in his response about the folks who don't necessarily read the updates because they don't necessarily ever get around to reading the service terms. I really wish Upwork would spend more time encouraging people to do that.

I know I'm so much wiser having read the reflections of that person we can't mention who did explain things in clear terms.

kfarnell · ‎09-27-2022

Renata S wrote:
I'm only moderately befuddled on bad days, but do love clear a explanation. I think I'm going to save that one and use it the next time a newbie Upworker posts about being scammed.

Go for it 🙂 I often have to write things out like this to address my own befuddlement.

I believe those are the 99% Stan aluded to in his response about the folks who don't necessarily read the updates because they don't necessarily ever get around to reading the service terms. I really wish Upwork would spend more time encouraging people to do that.

One problem is that the terms of service are difficult to read. That 99% of people may want to read them, but give up before they get very far.

For example, the first paragraph is 242 words long, even though it has obvious points where paragraph breaks could be added. If someone sat down and inserted paragraph breaks into the whole thing, it would be exponentially easier to read, without any adjustment to the wording.

I realise that user-friendliness doesn't feature high on Upwork's list of priorities, but when very little effort could make a major difference, it's hard to understand why they don't do it.

m_terrazas · ‎09-27-2022

Kim F wrote:
Renata S wrote:
I'm only moderately befuddled on bad days, but do love clear a explanation. I think I'm going to save that one and use it the next time a newbie Upworker posts about being scammed.

Go for it 🙂 I often have to write things out like this to address my own befuddlement.

I believe those are the 99% Stan aluded to in his response about the folks who don't necessarily read the updates because they don't necessarily ever get around to reading the service terms. I really wish Upwork would spend more time encouraging people to do that.

One problem is that the terms of service are difficult to read. That 99% of people may want to read them, but give up before they get very far.

For example, the first paragraph is 242 words long, even though it has obvious points where paragraph breaks could be added. If someone sat down and inserted paragraph breaks into the whole thing, it would be exponentially easier to read, without any adjustment to the wording.

I realise that user-friendliness doesn't feature high on Upwork's list of priorities, but when very little effort could make a major difference, it's hard to understand why they don't do it.

I will also appropriate it, well explained in a few words!

Regarding the TOS, they are cumbersome and in English 😥
I had to go copying paragraphs, passing them through the translator and making a translated copy. And looking for terms that I couldn't understand.
But, hey, with a little goodwill it can be done.
And asking specific questions in the forum you get to understand everything.

renata101 · ‎09-27-2022

Maria T wrote:
Kim F wrote:
Renata S wrote:
I'm only moderately befuddled on bad days, but do love clear a explanation. I think I'm going to save that one and use it the next time a newbie Upworker posts about being scammed.

Go for it 🙂 I often have to write things out like this to address my own befuddlement.

I believe those are the 99% Stan aluded to in his response about the folks who don't necessarily read the updates because they don't necessarily ever get around to reading the service terms. I really wish Upwork would spend more time encouraging people to do that.

One problem is that the terms of service are difficult to read. That 99% of people may want to read them, but give up before they get very far.

For example, the first paragraph is 242 words long, even though it has obvious points where paragraph breaks could be added. If someone sat down and inserted paragraph breaks into the whole thing, it would be exponentially easier to read, without any adjustment to the wording.

I realise that user-friendliness doesn't feature high on Upwork's list of priorities, but when very little effort could make a major difference, it's hard to understand why they don't do it.

I will also appropriate it, well explained in a few words!
Regarding the TOS, they are cumbersome and in English 😥
I had to go copying paragraphs, passing them through the translator and making a translated copy. And looking for terms that I couldn't understand.
But, hey, with a little goodwill it can be done.
And asking specific questions in the forum you get to understand everything.

Another issue is that even though this is a global platform, there has been no effort to translate them into other major languages. It might help freelancers if they did that. Unfortunately, I can't see it ever happening.

tlsanders · ‎09-27-2022

You absolutely have to stop telling people their contractual obligations aren't important.

You don't move clients off the platform, so you don't care. Fine.

That's very different from telling freelancers that they can simply not worry about this rule and Upwork will take no action against them...which, of course, you don't know.

You're a successful freelancer who posts here a lot, and many inexperienced freelancers respect you and believe what you say. Why do you keep trying to harm them by misleading them into violating the rules and expecting no consequences?

josephjohn_78 · ‎09-28-2022

I have been working with clients dated all the way back from 2014. I know their Skype ID, personal email address, mobile number and even company email address. All it take a skype call or an email to completely move from Upwork.

The maximum Upwork can do is to suspend my account. They CAN'T stop me work outside upwork with the same clients.

The only reason I am sticking with upwork is that Upwork is charging only 5% on hourly rate as I have charged over $10,000 from the clients. Also, the payments are on autopilot and both clients don't have to go through the hassle of moving to another platform. Anyways, thanks for bringing this shady TOS update to our attension.

Come on Upwork.. DON'T be a **Edited for Community Guidelines**

pudingstudio · ‎09-27-2022

UpWork is yet to inform us of this particular change?

Am I incorrect? Honest question, really don't know. I only skimmed updates pages/topics before posting this.

Or, we all "agreed" that update is not necessary, carry on?

kfarnell · ‎09-27-2022

You are correct.

People may think differently, but I believe that an update is essential given that people who read here will be a tiny percentage of people who work here.

pudingstudio · ‎09-27-2022

Agree. An update is essential.

Issue isn't about one dollar or whatever amount. UpWork shouldn't casually determine which updates are major/minor and based on that to choose for which we are supposed to be updated.

I would go insane if I were to regularly (once a week?) read ToS.
Maybe even lawyers (or whoever speaks that legal "language") cannot do that on a regular basis.

renata101 · ‎09-27-2022

No, it's not about the dollar. The important part is not informing freelancers about the change to the procedure for migrating clients off Upwork after 2 years. So if we don't perform these steps we weren't told about, we are in violation of the policy.

m_terrazas · ‎09-27-2022

Antun M wrote:
UpWork is yet to inform us of this particular change?
Am I incorrect? Honest question, really don't know. I only skimmed updates pages/topics before posting this.

Or, we all "agreed" that update is not necessary, carry on?

If they have finally announced it, I haven't heard either.

And no, not everyone "agreed" 😁

paywell · ‎09-27-2022

What this post in general alludes to, is not only that changes have been made without us being informed, but that this could be used in a backstabbing scheme to punish Upworkers. Right?

Here's my opinion: I believe there is a line which has to be crossed in order for a rule / TOS stipulation to count as "being implemented". For me, this line would be enforcing the new rule, like banning somebody or fining him for violating it.

As long as this line hasn't been crossed - I believe that Upwork is "in the green" and cannot be blamed for the intent of scamming the users for additional income.

Although I admit the fact, that the lack of information about TOS changes is unacceptable, I do believe, that it could be a technical or other internal issue, which needs to be sorted, and, since it got some publicity - should be straightened out publicly.

After stating the obvious, I would like to address a side of this situation, which nobody seems to see. Hear this:
Some guy "on the inside", a "good friend" informed somebody among the active forum users about a change in the TOS and the proverbial s* hit the fan.

Plus, another active forum user found information about TOS changes on Reddit. Of all places! Not here, where active users, interested in the wellbeing of their work-platform, post. But outside.

A quote from The Godfather about "never saying what you think outside the family" springs to mind.

I dabble in analytics / global politics etc. And this whole situation and how it got out seems really fishy to me.
From a political / analytical standpoint, this whole thing stinks to high heavens.

This could be easily named TO$1gate.

And this publicity doesn't do the users, nor the clients, who are using this platform any good, unless the people, who participated in implementing a "bad" change and not informing anybody about it are found, and their actions identified and dealt with, accordingly.

kochubei_valeria · ‎09-27-2022

Hi Amanda and others,

Thanks for the discussion and feedback.
To clarify, the change you are referring to around the way we calculate the fee users can pay if they met on Upwork but would like to take their work relationship away from Upwork went into effect in May and had been pre-announced in April here.
The only updates made in July were to clarify the language around the discount on the Conversion Fee. Those updates didn’t add any substantial changes to the terms or the process.

In addition to the TOS, the information about Conversion Fee can be found in this help article.

~ Valeria

kfarnell · ‎09-27-2022

The announcement you link to doesn't mention that taking a client off-platform after two years now requires going through a process and paying $1. This is a substantial change.

In fact, it specifically says:

We're simplifying the way we calculate the fee users can pay if they met on Upwork but would like to take their work relationship away from Upwork before 2 years have passed (Section 7)

That doesn't even hint that there is any difference to the process after two years.

kochubei_valeria · ‎09-28-2022

Kim, Amanda and others,

I'd like to reiterate that the update about the way the Conversion Fee is now calculated (quoted right below) went into effect in May and was present in the version of TOS linked in Courtney's announcement posted in April. We will be taking feedback shared on this thread into consideration to improve future update.

You agree that the Conversion Fee is 13.5% of the estimated earnings over a twelve (12) month period, which is calculated by taking the Hourly Rate (defined below) and multiplying it by 2,080. “Hourly Rate” means (a) the highest hourly rate charged by the Freelancer on any Service Contract with the Client, if any; or (b) if there is no hourly rate on a Service contract, the hourly rate in the Freelancer’s profile when the conversion is requested. The Conversion Fee includes all applicable taxes and is not subject to the Marketplace Fee. If Client and Freelancer have had an Upwork Relationship for at least two (2) years, the Conversion Fee is a nominal $1 USD for administrative purposes.

In May the Help article about the Conversion fee was also updated to include that information and clients started to see the option to initiate the process of moving their relationship outside Upwork from within their contract rooms (described here.)

As I mentioned in my previous comment, the only updates made in July were around the discount on the Conversion Fee. Specifically, this part:

Upwork will apply a discount on the Conversion Fee that is equal to the total amount of Marketplace Fees that Client has paid to Upwork in the preceding twelve (12) months on each marketplace Service Contract between the Client and the Freelancer. In no event shall the Conversion Fee be discounted below the minimum of $1,000 USD.

~ Valeria

kfarnell · ‎09-28-2022

Thank you for responding but you still appear to misunderstand the discussion.

1. Prior to May this year (apparently) if someone had been working for two years with a client, they could choose to continue the relationship off-platform with no issues. Upwork requested notification but it wasn't required.

2. With the amendment to the ToS, anyone who has worked for two years with a client and wishes to go off-platform is required to notify Upwork and pay a token fee of $1. There was no notification of this change. It is not included in Courtney's announcement or elsewhere.

3. The current terms of service are written in a way that is ambiguous. " In no event shall the Conversion Fee be discounted below the minimum of $1,000 USD" follows "If Client and Freelancer have had an Upwork Relationship for at least two (2) years, the Conversion Fee is a nominal $1 USD for administrative purposes." In other words, it states that the minimum conversion fee is $1,000. It also states that the fee after two years is $1. Both cannot be true at the same time.

4. As people were unaware of the change, it is possible that some of them took a client off-platform without going through the newly-established process and therefore inadvertently breached the terms of service. They want to know what consequences are likely if this has happened. They want to know if they have put their accounts here at risk.

So the questions are:

1. Why were people not notified about the change in relation to taking a client off-platform after two years?

2. Assuming this was an oversight, will it be rectified by notifying users now?

3. Is the ambiguity in wording to be corrected so users are not at risk of it being interpreted that they must pay $1,000 to take a client off-platform after two years?

kochubei_valeria · ‎09-28-2022

Kim and others,

The purpose of my previous response was to address the specific concern around the update being made in July and to clarify that the information about the $1 USD fee for moving relationships that have been maintained for at least two years was included in the version of TOS that went into effect in May.

I understand that many of you expressed other concerns on this thread and would like to address those as well.

First of all, rest assured that we’re noting the feedback we see here and will take it into consideration for future updates. We’ll also review the content that’s already been posted about this change and make clarifications as needed.

The information about the $1 USD fee for moving relationships that have been maintained for over 2 years was included in TOS and in the Help article in May, and linked in the Community announcement. However, it was not specifically noted in the Community announcement itself and we’ll be addressing that by updating the announcement.

The correct way to move any relationship that started on Upwork would be for the client to follow the steps outlined here. If it’s been less than 2 years since the start of the relationship on Upwork, the conversion fee would be calculated as described here. If it’s been more than 2 years, the conversion fee of $1 USD will be applied for administrative purposes.The “de minimus” fee is intended to ensure the right process is followed for moving off-platform

I also understand that many of you are concerned about the chance of an account being put on hold if the process wasn’t followed. I will not be able to discuss a hypothetical situation. However, rest assured that the team conducts a detailed review and communicates with the user before taking any serious action against the account.

I’d also like to clarify that the minimum conversion fee is $1,000 USD if the relationship is under 2 years old. If the relationship is more than 2 years old, the exception applies and the conversion fee is $1 USD.

~ Valeria