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Who Else Wonders What It Takes to Get C.S. to Actually Read the Tickets?

Community Guru
Tiffany S Member Since: Jan 15, 2016
41 of 45

@Valeria K wrote:



He was suggesting offering services for the sole purpose of obtaining positive feedback and completing a job the freelancer otherwise wouldn't do. 


In other words, it's against Upwork ToS for users to request positive feedback while users can offer positive feedback.

 But WHY is it okay and not against TOS for a client to offer false feedback? Does that not invalidate the system just as clearly as if the freelancer requests it?

Community Guru
Jess C Member Since: Feb 18, 2015
42 of 45

@Tiffany S wrote:

But WHY is it okay and not against TOS for a client to offer false feedback? Does that not invalidate the system just as clearly as if the freelancer requests it?

It would be only logical, which seems to be in short supply!

Community Guru
Eve L Member Since: Feb 17, 2017
43 of 45

If it's allowed to "sell" your work for feedback then the whole feedback feature should just be removed. If a freelancer has gotten a big drop in their jss they can just take on some of these jobs, and then they will be TR again in no time. This is not just unfair for the other freelancers who are actually working hard to keep their jss, but even more so for the clients who will then hire these TR freelancers, thinking that they provide an excellent service.



I hope Upwork has now officially changed their minds on this one, so that a clients budget cannot be $5 and a 5* feedback.





There is no indication that the client won't pay for the work done by freelancers. They mention fixed price payment and feedback. Freelancers are free to bid with the amount they are ready to complete the job for as long as it's more than $5 which is currently the minumum for fixed-price projects and milestones.

~ Valeria
How can a client give feedback if they have not paid the freelancer? I didn't even know that was possible. Would that just be for more work after the first $5 milestone is completed, or what?
Freelancing is a gamble - To win you need skill, luck and a strategy
Community Guru
Janean L Member Since: Apr 6, 2016
44 of 45

Jess has articulated the point I was attempting to make -- approximately 2700% more effectively and at less than half the length I attempted. (And, as is so often the case, the improved quality and decreased blah-blah are likely related!):


viz [ever-so-slightly edited]:


"Go back and read [this entire] thread again, and the linked thread [the thread that I, Janean, inserted here recently] as well. In one instance, a client offered minimum payment and 5-star feedback, but that is not a violation of ToS. In the other instance, a freelancer was encouraged to offer to work for minimum payment and 5-star feedback, but that is a violation of ToS."




The distinction offered by Moderators is, in effect, that "clients get to initiate this; freelancers do not."


So, while I can understand this distinction, I do not respect the principle.


And surely, surely, surely Upwork can see why some of us freelancers believe that Upwork is contorting its reasoning beyond the bounds of common sense when it attempts to explain why this distinction is reasonable.


Community Guru
Janean L Member Since: Apr 6, 2016
45 of 45
@Valeria K wrote:

Jess and Janean,


If, in their initial terms, posting or proposal, either client or freelancer offered to provide feedback once the contract is completed, it wouldn't be a violation. If either client or freelancer requested the other party to provide positive feedback, it would be a violation. In that way, both clients and freelancers are in the same position and are treated the same.

For example, if a freelancer says that they complete the job and give the client feedback, they wouldn't be violating Upwork ToS. 

 So the distinction is that in one case the positive feedback is affirmatively OFFERED (by a client), whereas in the other case the positive feedback is REQUESTED (by a freelancer).  Yet, in BOTH of these cases, the fundamental idea is that positive feedback is being exchanged (promised) NOT on the basis of JOB SATISFACTION, but (rather) positive feedback is being offered in partial payment of services offered ; positive feedback is being offered as an inducement for discount rates, rather than as a genuine indicator of high quality of services provided.


Here is a similar point:  The rate of pay for any job is a negotiation between freelancer and client. That is one reason for the "interview" phase of job negotiations here on Upwork. The terms of a job are negotiable. I may propose one rate of pay; the client may propose a lower rate; eventually, we establish a rate that may come from either one of us.


In the same way, this business of pairing guaranteed 5-star feedback with an acknowledged artificially minimal rate of pay is a negotiation between freelancer and client. The idea of it being "okay" if it is "offered" rather than "requested" seems to me to be A DISTINCTION WITHOUT A DIFFERENCE . (Obviously, Upwork sees this differently, although the logic escapes me entirely.) 


I will leave aside here the to-me-non-issue of whether or not each party is on an equal footing, or, as you put it, "in the same position and are treated the same" -- because each party is always in a position to negotiate. So, leaving that aside, I wll reiterate my utter mystification as to how this open exchange of feedback that is based on anything OTHER THAN genuine job satisfaction is not "feedback manipulation."


I do thank you for your patient and courteous responses and for putting up with this discussion, Valeria.