Re: Name on a received invoice? - Page 2

Quang N · ‎06-30-2015

I have a quick question on the invoices you receive from Upwork. As a client, when receiving an invoice from Upwork whose name and address is shown on that invoice? Is it Upwork itself or is it the name and address of the freelancer that was hired by you? So who are you paying according to the invoice, Upwork or the freelancer?

Krisztina U · ‎07-10-2015

@Lena E wrote:
J R,

The invoice includes Upworks address on the bottom right hand corner, see below:

Lena, I don't expect you to publicly comment, but I am sure you would agree that this is the most ridiculous invoice you have ever seen. When can we expect to get a real invoice, at the very least for the past, pre-this ridiculous change? Part of the Upwork fee is for archiving our reports and invoices, it's not sound business practice to make changes that not only make our life harder moving forward, and quite frankly, outsourcing work on Upwork impossible, but also mess up our accounting retroactively.

Joachim M · ‎07-11-2015

@Krisztina U wrote:
Lena, I don't expect you to publicly comment, but I am sure you would agree that this is the most ridiculous invoice you have ever seen. When can we expect to get a real invoice, at the very least for the past, pre-this ridiculous change? Part of the Upwork fee is for archiving our reports and invoices, it's not sound business practice to make changes that not only make our life harder moving forward, and quite frankly, outsourcing work on Upwork impossible, but also mess up our accounting retroactively.

Krisztina,

It's even worse. You correctly mentioned ...archiving our reports and invoices... You may want to add the messages regarding the contract too. By law I'm oblidged (German Commercial Code) to save invoices and all messages concerning each contract for 10 years (record rentention period). All other correspondence with clients or contractors for 7 years. In the case of electronic messages they have to be saved in their original format. And now Upwork is closing down Elance in 2016, access will no longer be possible some time in 2016... I'm sure similar commercial codes exist in other countries too.

Pepita B · ‎08-19-2015

You added the address of Upwork, but on the top left corner it says that the invoice is from Freelancer XYZ.

The invoice is either from the Freelancer or via Upwork. I am paying Upwork, so it should be an invoice from Upwork. It also should have the tax number on it. This is not on there.

Anonymous-User A · ‎08-19-2015

The Unites States have tough taxation regulations, I am sure they will never accept all these invoices and all three parties involved will have problems in the end with the fiscal authorities in their home countries and in the US. In the worst case somebody can be accused for money laundering (without VAT-ID, not clear to whom the money was paid for which services)

Ela K · ‎08-25-2015

@Pepita B wrote:
You added the address of Upwork, but on the top left corner it says that the invoice is from Freelancer XYZ.

The invoice is either from the Freelancer or via Upwork. I am paying Upwork, so it should be an invoice from Upwork. It also should have the tax number on it. This is not on there.

No, that is not how it works. You set up contracts with freelancers, not Upwork. And you pay said freelancers. That's why they need invoices in their names.

Take a look at the user agreement. 4 parties are involved:

Clients has a contract with freelancer. (fixed price or hourly rate + bonuses)
Clients transfers 100% to EEC (Elance Escrow Corporation) for previous work of freelancer.
EEC transfers 90% to the freelancer.
EEC transfers 10% to Upwork as their service fee

Upwork is not really involved/responsible anymore... which is exactly what they want.

Joachim M · ‎07-08-2015

@Lena E wrote:
We are aware that the new invoice changes created problems for users in Europe. As a result, updates have been made that now display an address so the invoice will meet document requirements, as specified by various tax authorities.

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

-Lena

Lena,

And what about the contractors? They also need an invoice showing the full address of the client and all necessary details regarding the VAT.

Pepita B · ‎08-19-2015

I have just received an invoice from Upwork and I was confused:

The data from the freelancer that are on the invoice are far from complete. It only has the name and no other information. Even though the answer above says that changes are being made.

Now what?

Pepita

Peter A · ‎02-14-2018

What I usually do, is ask the freelancer to write the address into the settings menu, and make a screenshot when ready, then I pay only after this. So then address will be there.

J R · ‎07-02-2015

Hello Upwork,

The question is easy:

Why don't you fill your invoices with your Name and Tax Id?

I really need invoices with Name (Upwork), address and tax Id. All the legal Europeans need this...

Thanks

Joachim M · ‎07-08-2015

@J R wrote:
Hello Upwork,

The question is easy:

Why don't you fill your invoices with your Name and Tax Id?

I really need invoices with Name (Upwork), address and tax Id. All the legal Europeans need this...

Thanks

In this case Upwork would suddenly be our contractual partner, i.e. the client buys from Upwork and the contractor sells to Upwork. Upwork would no longer act as agent but take full responsibilty. I'm pretty sure that this is not what Upwork has in mind.

Gabriele D · ‎07-05-2015

i absolutely agree with this thread, you should take as example companies like ENVATO, that have successfully managed it, doing invoices that are splitted between the platform and the freelancer, but that are still totally valid for EU

your move - without any notice - has absolutely messed up things, specially for big spender.

i cannot trust a so dumb move, that could means hundreds of clients goign away

that was EXACTLY the reason why i switched from elance to odesk, years ago.

and now that odesk and elance are the same, i really hope can arise a new player that keep care of these issues. it will have immediately tons of clients.

Gabriele D · ‎07-05-2015

i noticed this week that UPWORK (probably after the odesk -> upwork passage) has totally changed - without any advise - the fiscal structure of their invoices

now the invocies i download are no longer "real" invoices, with company data, ecc..

but are sort of receipts, totally UNUSEFUL from the italian fiscal point of view, where is NOT clear who is taking my money

it was the same that happened on elance in the past, and the main reason why i switched to odesk. but now things here are getting messed up again.

I saw the job done by other big compamnies like ENVATO, that have changed the way to organize invoices (to manage the fact that some of the moneys are going directly to the freelancer) but have done it in a way that is manageable - fiscally - by european company

here it seems that this BIG change has been done without any advise, and without any care about the enormous difficultues that big spenders will have justifiyng these payments to european fiscal authorities

has anyone else noticed and discussed this?

Joachim M · ‎07-08-2015

@Gabriele D wrote:
i absolutely agree with this thread, you should take as example companies like ENVATO, that have successfully managed it, doing invoices that are splitted between the platform and the freelancer, but that are still totally valid for EU

your move - without any notice - has absolutely messed up things, specially for big spender.
i cannot trust a so dumb move, that could means hundreds of clients goign away

that was EXACTLY the reason why i switched from elance to odesk, years ago.
and now that odesk and elance are the same, i really hope can arise a new player that keep care of these issues. it will have immediately tons of clients.

Well, this works just fine on Elance. I work as client and contractor on Elance and all the documentation and invoices are EU compliant.

Pawel K · ‎07-06-2015

I was aghast when I saw the last two invoices this morning. The way they are constructed is not valid in EU and means I cannot write off a few thousand USD I spent on Upwork in the past couple weeks! If this doesn't get fixed right away, I am going to cancel the contract and leave the platform. A valid invoice requires: seller's full name and address, seller's tax ID (since you're not a EU company, we could get away with it missing), date of purchase, names and amounts of products or services sold, buyer's full name and address and tax ID. Also, I need this to be fixed on the past two invoices as well, otherwise I will incur a great financial loss because of that change. It would have been great if you consulted with us first before making such changes. Also, although you're an American company, you have businesses working with you (through your platform) from all over the world - as a result, in my opinion, you should pay more attention to other countries' tax laws. Make use of what you have already and hire local accountants via Upwork and ask them to help you prepare valid documents worldwide, make the business owners working via Upwork feel secure. The thing that just happened is terrible.

Garnor M · ‎07-07-2015

Hi Pawel and others,

We hear your concerns and requests to add freelancer's addresses to the invoice and we've raised this to our team so they can evaluate the best way to include this information.

Please note we have not previously had freelancer addresses included in these invoices so while the invoice has changed, this was not something we removed.

Wim J · ‎07-18-2015

@Garnor M wrote:
Hi Pawel and others,
We hear your concerns and requests to add freelancer's addresses to the invoice and we've raised this to our team so they can evaluate the best way to include this information.

Please note we have not previously had freelancer addresses included in these invoices so while the invoice has changed, this was not something we removed.

Hi Garnor,

due to full time load in my business, I did not downloaded my invoices of the 2nd quarter till yesterday and noticed all info is gone. Almost a white document with only my information. Helpdesk told the changes took place in June2015.
But why retrospective to all invoices before that date? I have now thousands of dollars paid to Odesk with no invoice.
“Please note we have not previously had freelancer addresses included in these invoices so while the invoice has changed, this was not something we removed. “
Correct, but Upwork took all other information of the invoice. If Upwork takes away valid invoices for their clients, they should give an alternative. Just taking away with retrospective without giving an alternative is not a correct way of doing business. Especially if the money is already collected, an invoice should be given.

UPWORK NEW STRATEGY:

I understand the whole strategy behind this: Elance-oDesk Becomes 'Upwork' In Push To Build $10B In Freelancer Revenues from $1B now. forbes.com/
Pushing us as business clients in the direction of the high paid official freelancers. This can be seen also with the new freelancer search.
The new “user agreement” of Upwork, different as that of Odesk, already explaines the new idea: “When a Client pays a Freelancer… EEC will credit the Freelancer Escrow Account and then deduct and disburse to Upwork a 10% service fee that Upwork earns”

To make this all work, there are now 4 parties.

Clients has a contract with freelancer. (fixed price or hourly rate + bonuses)
Clients transfers 100% to EEC (Elance Escrow Corporation) for previous work of freelancer.
EEC transfers 90% to the freelancer.
EEC transfers 10% to Upwork as their service fee

RESPONSIBILITY PROBLEM UPWORK RESOLVED: So Upwork is covered here to take no responsibility at all for the work delivered or for any local tax laws.

The change of the name from Odesk to Upwork and new company solves all responsability of Odesk of the old invoices.

PROBLEMS:

Still the client needs to get an invoice for the 100% he paid. What he needs to ask to the freelancer to provide that valid invoice with all details of both parties.
But the freelancer doesn’t get a valid invoice of Upwork for the 10% service fee. So the freelancer can NOT make an invoice for the 100% the client paid as he cannot deduct the 10% Upwork fee as a cost as that invoice has no value at all.
Client cannot use the Upwork invoice as that has also no value at all as all details required for a valid invoice are missing now on top it is clearly stated that the invoice is by the freelancer with their name on top of the new invoice. But all the rest of the freelancer information is missing.
For an invoice to be valid and pass tax inspections, a proof of payment is also necessary.

But the client has only proof of payment to Upwork and not to the freelancer
The client has only proof of payment of 100%, but never the 90% that the freelancer received to square the invoice received of the freelancer with a payment.

SOLLUTION:

Upwork could add address and tax nr or any other local required nr of the freelancer to the invoice that Upwork provide to the client.

And with a small text and link to the disclaimer explaining that the invoice comes from the freelancer and payments of the invoice are done to the EEC that distributes 90% to the freelancer and 10% to Upwork for the service fee.

For sure for a studied reason by the whole Upwork lawyers team, to avoid any other responsibility, Upwork is also not allowing the freelancers details on the invoice the clients receives.
This new invoice covers Upwork all responsibility but leaves 2 parties in the dark; the client and the freelancer.

If the client has no way to deduct his costs paid to the freelancer via Upwork ECC, for tax purposes. Then there is no reason at all for the business client to outsource work over the Upwork platform.

The whole strategy to push business clients to spent more via Upwork to reach that $10B goal in 6 years is lost.
If this new invoice system doesn’t get solved:

The idea behind fast hiring on Upwork is lost as business clients will now loose a lot of time by studying the invoices and details of each freelancer. It will get to complicated that many business clients just will let it go.

What clients will stick with the new Upwork:

Retail clients that do not need an invoice at all. But they will not be the big spenders.
US business clients that use the Upwork payroll system.

Some months ago, as I liked so much Odesk and had big plans outsourcing all work via odesk, I was looking to invest in the stock of Odesk.

But found out it is privately listed

Maybe good, as if it was a public listed company, many would be shorting the stock now.

As I foresee many business clients leaving to look elsewhere, to platforms that have solved the invoice client-platform-freelancer problem.

I heard others speaking here about Envato have solved that issue.

Wim J · ‎07-20-2015

Correction on the above:

I found out of a freelancer there side, so this is how it works now:
there are now 4 parties.

When you open an account or hold an account at Upwork, you agree to the new terms:
“You hereby authorize and instruct EEC to act as escrow agent in connection with the Escrow Accounts and the payment”

1. Clients has a contract with freelancer. (fixed price or hourly rate + bonuses)
2. Clients transfers 100% to EEC (Elance Escrow Corporation) for previous work of freelancer.
a) Client can download an invoice via Upwork with only the name of the freelancer on top and an invoice nr Txxxxxxx1
b) This invoice is clearly from: the freelancer
c) Created via Uwork so forget to say the invoice is of Upwork.

3. EEC transfers 100% of funds to the “freelancer escrow account”
a) Freelancer can see that the invoice nr is Txxxxxxx4 (the same nr as the client but 2 till 4 higher.) why not one higher?
b) But cannot download this invoice as a pdf, only see the nr in there transaction history.

4. EEC transfers 10% to Upwork as their service fee and TAKES THAT AUTOMATIC OF THE FREELANCER ACCOUNT.
   a) Freelancer can download an invoice for the 10% service fee of Upwork
   b) This service fee invoice has more details as for the client and is usable in many places for the freelancer to use as a cost for the 10% service fee to Upwork.
   c) It would be better if Upwork Global Inc also mentions there Company No as in the EU that can then be uses as there VAT nr. There is no reason at all for Upwork to leave that nr out of it.
   d) The invoice nr of this one is Txxxxxxx6 (2 nrs higher as the invoice nr the freelancer cannot open and where they see the amounts 100% coming in to there escrow account. ) why 2nr higher?
   e) The invoice for the freelancer of Upwork explains very well the Contract ID nr and Contract title and Client.
   f) The invoice of the freelancer from Upwork for the service free, mentiones also the invoice nr Txxxxxxx4 of the money coming in to their account.
g) I can say this invoice is very minimalistic and Upwork can do better with more details on it but it is usable for the freelancer.

GOOD INVOICES FOR THE CLIENTS WITH THIS ESCROW SYSTEM:

On contrarian, the invoice for the client, should have all the same details as the freelancer has, and all the details of the freelancer as address and VAT nr or other nr as PAN for India, etc. Ofcourse the freelancer should provide that infor to Upwork.
Upwork should make all this process for the clients more easier and faster and ask all that info upfront of the freelancer. Eventually it are the clients that let this business run.
It should also have the information how a client has paid for the invoice. Paypal account or credit card nr. As this invoice can only be downloaded after a client has paid, I do not see any problem by adding that info.
All contract details should be on there and explaining why the client is paying to Upwork Global Inc and not direct to the freelancer. (tax inspectors do not understand this 3 way payment system well)

An invoice is valid if the details of how to pay and to who are the same as the payment receipt.

As Upwork is global, they should help protect the client against tax inspectors that do not like invoices to people paid from other countries as the tax inspector does not speak that language and do not understand the system of that other country. (logical)

Now as client, you need to ask the freelancer to make an invoice for every transaction. And ask to write all that info of payment system down on it. Check the freelancers details, check there country law of what details should be on a valid invoice and so on...

A tax inspector will always first reject invoices they do not understand and ask the client to proof they are correct. Expect yourself in a situation after paying $20k dollars a year for 5 years and having to proof 52 weeks x 5 years x amount of freelancers you work with to the tax man. (On top the tax man has the right to ask you to translate the invoices in the languange of the country you delcare your taxes.) (this happend to me 2 years ago with invoices of other EU members) Maybe by then Upwork has changed again there name etc. so no proof of the past can be found again as now with Odesk.

Question to Upwork:

why are the invoice nrs that the clients can download Txxxxxxx1 not the same as the one that the freelancer can see in their account coming in the 100% funds as Txxxxxxx4 and is mentioned on the Upwork invoice to the freelancer?

And why are there numbers between the transactions?

I think there are movements between each invoice internal in Upwork and that is the reason that Upwork will not write the details of the contract and the freelancer address, on the invoice the client can download.

I understand that Upwork wants to protect them self but they are placing all the responsibility and work on the client. It became overnight so difficult for a client and risky to get a correct invoice where the client can feel safe with that one day, the tax inspector won’t reject all the money spent on Upwork.

Clients come to Upwork to buy time, but loose it now with investigation to be sure of having received good invoices of their freelancer from another place in the world.
The risk is that clients will go back to what they know, their own country to be sure that invoices will not be rejected by the tax man.

For the freelancer all is perfect, any tax inspector in the world will never reject income you declare from clients living on the other side.

But a tax man wants to reject invoices, so you pay more. And the easiest are invoices he doesn't understand, or can not verify.

The whole idea of hiring fast as Upwork new strategy has lost. Or for clients that do not spent a lot on Upwork as retail clients.

You can put apples for sale, but if you have no buyers, they will just dryout in your storage room.

Wim J · ‎07-18-2015

the whole terms and conditions with the new company Upwork and new website has been changed and very clear that ECC proived escrow services to the 3 other parties: the client, the freelancer and Upwork for the service fee.

But it is not correct to change all the invoices with retrospective matter before the change to Upwork. without notification that the invoices will be changed, and a time is given to collect/download the old invoices.

I have now for the full month of April 2015 payments made to Odesk and payment receipts of Paypal and credit card with the name of Odeks mentioned on, but the invoices (documents ) I can download are from Upwork, the new company.

You probably will tell me: if the new invoices are not usefull, why even complain about it.

The reason is that I now can not even ask the freelancers to make an invoice for April 2015 with the terms & conditions of the new Upwork and ECC as the escrow service. Because the payments where made to Odesk and not to Upwork.

J R · ‎07-06-2015

I am one more user who is going to leave Upwork.

EU USERS NEED LEGAL INVOICES.

Quang N · ‎07-06-2015

Hi Lena or anyone else from Upwork. The invoices that I am downloading from Upwork still do not have the address of the freelancer on it (I know they are created dynamically). It still only has the full name of the freelancer, when can we expect the new update to be live?

Lena E · ‎07-06-2015

Quang,

I apologize for the lack of communication. I know this is a change that was planned to be released, i thought it was made live last week. I will check with the team to get and update for you all.

-Lena

Valeria K · ‎07-06-2015

Hi All,

We have gotten a confirmation from the team that Upwork name and address will soon be added back to the invoices both current and past.

Sorry about the inconvenience.

~ Valeria

Ela K · ‎07-07-2015

But Upwork is not the seller of the service - the freelancer is.

I (European resident) need an invoice in my name with my address (and my VAT ID when working for EU clients).

Upwork invoices clients on behalf of the freelancer - and I get paid by the client, not Upwork.

Alexandre F · ‎07-07-2015

Seriously,

even if you have made some change and put your logo and address at the end of the invoice, in your actual system my provider still be the freelancer instead of you.

That may work if you provide is address and a way to see the amount charged one time affected to it.

But you don't do it !!!!

I am very angry because we have not been notified for this and it a major modification in your billing policy.

Also you won't agree to send us the old invoice on the odesk time

I am taking my 25 000 per years away !

Quang N · ‎07-08-2015

I also noticed that as a client I can fill in my VAT-ID under "Settings > Company Contact" and it will be shown on the invoices which is great. However, there is no option for the freelancer to fill in their VAT-ID. Right now, I found out that the freelancer can force it into their address, you just make VAT-ID part of your address. You can then check if it works by downloading one of your service fee invoices. Note that all invoices on Upwork are dynamically created.

Then, when Upwork pushes the update which will show the freelancers address in the invoice you will "hopefully" also see their VAT-ID.

After that is done, I think the best temporarily solution is to give the freelancer access to the invoice that the client is getting from Upwork. That way, the freelancer will have their clients Name, Address and VAT-ID and the freelancer can then create their own invoice that satisfies their EU tax laws. The freelancer can then directly send the invoice to their client and tell the client that Upworks invoice is invalid. Even though Upwork creates the invoices, it falls down to the freelancer to make sure that the invoices with their names on them are compliant to their tax laws.

Right now as a client, you can contact your freelancer/contractor and send them Upworks invoices that have their name on it. The freelancer can use the information on those invoices to create tax compliant ones and will then send those back to you. If the EU freelancer does not know how to make a valid invoice, then they probably do not have a VAT-ID either. You can then just ask for their address and you can make one yourself.