Re: Client already approved design and paid m...

Grace J · ‎07-09-2019

So, I'm very new to upwork. This is my first gig. It was flat rate 60 bucks--so 48 to me, 12 to upwork. The initial description was for a logo, after the interview it was decided we would do an event flyer instead. The client basically sent me a rough outline of what he wanted to flyer to be--I recreated the flyer in my own style, with my own flair, colors, type, etc. He approved the work and paid me asking me to stay on standby for any minor changes. I told him I would be more than happy to continue communicating with him so as to make any minor changes that may be needed for web obtimization, resizing, etc. Yesterday he asked me to remove the current logo from the flyer and add a different one--easy. Done.

I sent the flyer back with the new logo and he sends me another example flyer and asks me to change the colors to that flyers colors instead. I change it to those colors to show him what it would look like and add a transparency behind the type because the new colors make the background too busy to read the type. He dislikes the transparency so I remove it to show him how difficult it is to read without it with the new colors he requested. He says the colors are too bright and sends me two more flyers to sample colors out of. I send him two new versions with those colors, both with and without transparencies behind the type to show him that my original design worked best. He hates his new color choice and tells me to absolutely not use the color pink, even though it has been in each flyer he has sent me to sample colors out of.

After my fourth submission to him, he says, "Sorry for being so annoying, maybe you should just re-design the flyer entirely." At this point I have spent upwards of 7 hours tweaking and designing this poster. I don't know what to do. Everytime I make another change or spend another minute tweaking his flyer, I feel like I am being cheated and manipulated. How should I handle this?

Jerold T · ‎07-09-2019

ask for an hourly rate than a fixed price payment. In this way, the time you spent will be paid

Amanda L · ‎07-09-2019

I would tell him that the initial contract was completed and that if he wants a new job to open a new contract.

You delivered the product and he approved the payment. Deal is done. You do not owe him any more work, and should not agree to work after you've submitted it and it was approved. If he was not happy revisions should have been before payment, not after.

I'm sure one of the community gurus will have better advice.

EDIT: I see you haven't been paid yet. So this is the problem with a fixed-term contract. He will keep asking for revisions until he's happy. How many revisions did you agree to in your scope of work?

Grace J · ‎07-09-2019

I'm a real noob so I didn't expect him to be this way--I didn't agree to any spcific amount of revisions and he has paid me already. At this point I'm just afraid that if I don't give him what he wants, my first and only review is going to be negative.

Virginia F · ‎07-09-2019

Grace J wrote:
I'm a real noob so I didn't expect him to be this way--I didn't agree to any spcific amount of revisions and he has paid me already. At this point I'm just afraid that if I don't give him what he wants, my first and only review is going to be negative.

And this is where the business end of freelancing comes in - it's not just about your skills. As I suggested, you may want to bite the bullet on this one and learn from the experience. Just be firm about revisions for this new flyer - and maybe ask him if he'd be willing to add another milestone at a nominal amount.

Tonya P · ‎07-09-2019

Grace J wrote:
I'm a real noob so I didn't expect him to be this way--I didn't agree to any spcific amount of revisions and he has paid me already. At this point I'm just afraid that if I don't give him what he wants, my first and only review is going to be negative.

You could continue to work with the client for weeks and still get a negative review.

In your position, I would tell the client that going forward, each new revision or reworking will require a new funded milestone.

The reason I would not ask the client to close the contract and open an hourly one is that closing the contract will prompt the client to leave a review and you can't predict what that review will be.

If the contract remains open--no review. So, if possible, keep the contract open while you find a few more clients to work for and hope that those relationships go better. Then, close this contract before you close those new client contracts so that it does not appear at the top of your history.

If you ask the client to pay for the next set of revisions and they are happy to do so, then the review when they close the contract may be fine, btw. But you have to plan for the unpredictable.

General advice (not directed at OP):
People who are new to Upwork are often eager to land their first contract. The reality is that Upwork success is heavily influenced by social proof. Because of the disproportionate impact those first few contracts and their reviews will have, freelancers should be cautious about the clients they choose to work with. A freelancer with a solid history can afford to take risks with a client that may be indecisive or demanding, a new freelancer puts themselves at risk by doing so.

Andrei T · ‎07-09-2019

The client already paid the original amount, and acknowledged being "annoying"; it doesn't sound like they're trying to scam you. Continue to work with them towards the best solution you can find, but do let them know it would cost extra: they can add a new milestone, send you a bonus or switch to an hourly contract. This won’t affect the review you’ll receive, only the final output of the project will.

Virginia F · ‎07-09-2019

Grace J wrote:
So, I'm very new to upwork. This is my first gig. It was flat rate 60 bucks--so 48 to me, 12 to upwork. The initial description was for a logo, after the interview it was decided we would do an event flyer instead. The client basically sent me a rough outline of what he wanted to flyer to be--I recreated the flyer in my own style, with my own flair, colors, type, etc. He approved the work and paid me asking me to stay on standby for any minor changes. I told him I would be more than happy to continue communicating with him so as to make any minor changes that may be needed for web obtimization, resizing, etc. Yesterday he asked me to remove the current logo from the flyer and add a different one--easy. Done.

I sent the flyer back with the new logo and he sends me another example flyer and asks me to change the colors to that flyers colors instead. I change it to those colors to show him what it would look like and add a transparency behind the type because the new colors make the background too busy to read the type. He dislikes the transparency so I remove it to show him how difficult it is to read without it with the new colors he requested. He says the colors are too bright and sends me two more flyers to sample colors out of. I send him two new versions with those colors, both with and without transparencies behind the type to show him that my original design worked best. He hates his new color choice and tells me to absolutely not use the color pink, even though it has been in each flyer he has sent me to sample colors out of.

After my fourth submission to him, he says, "Sorry for being so annoying, maybe you should just re-design the flyer entirely." At this point I have spent upwards of 7 hours tweaking and designing this poster. I don't know what to do. Everytime I make another change or spend another minute tweaking his flyer, I feel like I am being cheated and manipulated. How should I handle this?

If he has paid for the work with one milestone, you're not obligated to do any more work. If he's on standby, I assume that means the job is still open. Keep it professional and tell him you're happy to create a new flyer, and will do so once he closes this job and sends an offer for a new job, making sure all expectations are covered up front. Going forward, be sure to specify the number of revisions your bid includes. If it were me and because I was not clear about expectations in my bid, I would agree to do a new flyer, with the caveat that you'll do only x number of revisions on the flyer, then take this job as lesson learned.

By the way, you should remove the link to your website from your profile page - that is not allowed and can get you suspended. Links to sites with a way to contact you are against TOS.

Grace J · ‎07-09-2019

Thank you! I had no idea. Will remove it now.

Preston H · ‎07-09-2019

re: "Client already approved design and paid me--Now asking for complete redesign?"

The client sounds like a bad client.

And a bad person.

Ambe E · ‎07-09-2019

Just tell him to open another contract with you rather than manipulating you that way

Kathy T · ‎07-09-2019

You've fulfilled the requirements of the contract and you've been paid for that. If this client wants to re-design the flyer from scratch, he would need to set up a new contract as that is an entirely new job. You have no obligation to continue revising, tweeking, or re-designing the flyer. Just tell him:

Hi (client name) I agree with you. Let's re-design the flyer entirely. I'll be happy to do that for you. In order for me to do that this contract would need to be closed and a new hourly contract created. I can start as soon as that's done. How would you like to proceed?

Preston H · ‎07-09-2019

I strongly agree with the other participants in this thread to said you should offer to do the work using an HOURLY contract.

This client has burned his fixed-price contract card.

There is no way I would agree to another fixed-price contract with a client who acted like this.

Kim F · ‎07-10-2019

"This client has burned his fixed-price contract card."

To be fair to the client, it sounds as if they're simply pushing their luck rather than acting as Dr Evil. After all, you haven't asked for extra money. They may even be wondering why you haven't brought it up.

There's no need to be confrontational. If you respond in such a way that makes it sound like you expect to be paid, that might be all that's needed. "Yes, I can fit in a redesign. My fee for that is £XX. As soon as you confirm that's OK, I'll set it up as a new project." sort of thing.

Obviously, some clients are nasty pieces of work and should be poked in the eye with a sharp stick. But reading on here will give you a skewed view. The vast majority are jolly nice, or at least reasonable, and if you treat them that way, they'll pay up on request. Sometimes, even the nasty ones can be thrown off course if you treat them as if you think they're jolly nice and that's always the best approach to start with.

Christine A · ‎07-10-2019

Kim F wrote:
"This client has burned his fixed-price contract card."

To be fair to the client, it sounds as if they're simply pushing their luck rather than acting as Dr Evil. After all, you haven't asked for extra money. They may even be wondering why you haven't brought it up.

Yes, I agree. A lot of design clients think that our job is creative and fun and easy, that we just hang out in our hipster studios drinking chai lattes and merrily throwing together flyers in half an hour or so (actually, this IS mostly what I do, but individual results may vary); they have absolutely no idea how long anything takes. So, use your words and TALK to him.

If I may offer some advice, I wonder if you didn't get off to a bad start with this client. From what you say about how you "recreated the flyer in my own style, with my own flair... etc." and then later say "I showed him why my design worked better" - that set off a few warning bells for me. Did you get a full brief from the client before you started working, or did you just plunge in? Because it seems to me that if you had asked the client if (for example) he had any color preferences, he would have told you that he didn't like bright colors and saved you at least one round of revisions. And did you pay attention to what he did in his mock-up, or did you just throw it out the window and do something completely different? If you had a brief in which you asked (among many other things) whether he had any examples that he'd like to show you, who is target market is, what his goals are, does he have color/font preferences, whether there were any pieces in your own portfolio that he liked (and why), then you wouldn't have to get into discussions about who's right and who's wrong when he says that he doesn't like your design. If he had told you that his target market was 8-year-old girls, then when he came back to you and said that he didn't like pink, you could then say, "I felt that this worked best for your target market" instead of saying, "your color choices are wrong". See what I mean? I'm sorry if I'm making too many assumptions based on your short description - perhaps you did do all these things - but I thought that it was worth mentioning just in case. Because if you didn't fully discuss the project with your client before getting started, then you might just want to take this as a learning experience and start over with a new design. (Yeah, this contradicts everybody else's advice, but I'm very much of the "customer is always right" school of thought.)

Also, I'm sorry but $60 for a flyer is way too low a price. You should never just assume that you're going to hit something out of the park on your first attempt. If you had quoted him a higher rate, then you would have had a cushion for doing revisions instead of getting stressed now. I always assume that there will be at least two rounds of revisions and TELL my clients this in my proposals, then if there are more (or sometimes fewer) revisions, I can adjust my price accordingly.