Client asking for work when contract has ended

[kimg93]

Hello all,

I am currently dealing with a difficult client.

I completed design work for her according to a project proposal/brief which clearly showed what would be included in the price, which she agreed to. After submitting the work, I didn't hear back from her for 3 months, so of course Upwork approved the milestone on her behalf and a little while later I ended the contract as there was no reply from her.

So after the 3 months she contacted me asking me to re-do the designs. I was away on holiday at the time so my replies weren't quick and I didn't have much internet access, which I explained to her. The contract included one round of 'small' changes to the designs, not completely new sketches. Bare in mind this was also 3 months after I had submitted the work, so there was no open contract at this time. 

I explained that I would re-do the sketches as an act of goodwill as only 'small' changes were included in our contract and these did not fit into that bracket. She was extremely rude and was demanding I re-do the sketches within 1 or 2 days - as I was away I wasn't able to do this, and I also thought she was being extremely unreasonable and disrespectful in the way she was communicating with me. Even so, I remained professional with her.

I ended up re-doing the sketches for her to keep her happy, and she replied later saying she wanted them in a different layout/configuration. At this point I am doing free work for her, without an open contract. She doesn't seem to accept that this was not part of the contract. I really don't want to engage with her any further due to her unpleasant attitude. She has threatened to contact Upwork if I don't 'correct' these for her. At this point I would like to cut contact with her and don't feel I owe her anything at all.

I am always generous and polite with clients and have been throughout this situation, but it's difficult to keep on giving to someone who is continuously rude, disrespectful and demands free work.

What can Upwork do if she contacts them? I have already been paid, and don't have an open contract with her.

Thanks in advance.

[prestonhunter]

It is a violation of Upwork TOS for a client to ask a freelancer to work for free.

Are you worried that this client will contact Upwork Customer Support and get in trouble? Don't be concerned that SHE might get in trouble because she contacts Upwork and confesses to violating Upwork TOS.

You should NOT work for free for this client. You should not feel obligated to work for free for her.

Let me ask you a blunt question: If you hired a freelancer, and his work was all concluded and the contract was closed... Would YOU pester him to work for you for free?

Just block her.

[kimg93]

Thanks for your reply.

I just want to do what is right in this situation. I assume by her threatening to contact Upwork that she will tell them that I did not complete the work properly, which is wrong. I completed everything set out in our contact, however she believes the work is 'not complete without final designs'. I would have been happy to re-do the sketches for her at an additional cost as this was not included in our contract, but she doesn't agree with this.

If we don't have an open contract and I have already been paid, I am not sure what Upwork can actually do for her? Can I be penalised in any way? 

[prestonhunter]

 She can't do anything through Upwork.

You aren't going to be penalized by Upwork.

 But don't do anything to agitate her.

She may still be within a window of time during which she can contact her credit card company and request a chargeback. That is a violation of Upwork TOS, and she would lose her Upwork account if she did that. It is rare for a client to take that step, but it is possible. The longer you have the client's money, the more impossible it becomes for the client to get it back, even by taking extreme measures like filing for a chargeback.

The time limit on chargebacks varies based on credit card company and location, but typically time limits are between 60 to 120 days. You may or may not be within that window, still.

read this:

https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/211062088-Request-a-Refund

[prestonhunter]

re: "I just want to do what is right in this situation."

The right thing to do would have been for her to start her first sentence to you, after three months of silence, with the words: "Can I hire you to..."

The right thing for you to do would be to have never worked for her for free.

You should have asked that she create a new hourly contract in order to pay you for your work.

[comm]

Preston, you wrote:

It is a violation of Upwork TOS for a client to ask a freelancer to work for free.

I have such a situation where he's been asking me to do additional work for free. How egregious of a Upwork TOS violation is this? Because I have been dutifully flagging his messages to that effect but apparently nothing has happened to him so far. He keeps sending me abusive messages.

Now, in retaliation for not having worked for free, he has trashed my repuation by leaving an unhinged diatribe of a review; he **bleep** near wrote a book with petty and emotional character attacks on me, all in one long rambling paragraph.

How do I report this "TOS violation" (of demanding free work and if he's not getting it, trashing my feedback)? Because from all I read here in the forum, the client can do and say whatever he wants, pretty much, and Upwork will not take any action. There is also no (published) mechanism to report specific abuse, as far as I can tell (more than flagging a message which seems to do nothing).

So again, if demanding free work is a TOS violation, how do I bring it to the attention to an actual live person inside Upwork?

[2a05aa63]

They mostly block these cases when multiple freelancers report. Just block him and move on.

[a_lipsey]

---

Jorg S wrote:

Preston, you wrote:

It is a violation of Upwork TOS for a client to ask a freelancer to work for free.

I have such a situation where he's been asking me to do additional work for free. How egregious of a Upwork TOS violation is this? Because I have been dutifully flagging his messages to that effect but apparently nothing has happened to him so far. He keeps sending me abusive messages.

Now, in retaliation for not having worked for free, he has trashed my repuation by leaving an unhinged diatribe of a review; he **bleep** near wrote a book with petty and emotional character attacks on me, all in one long rambling paragraph.

How do I report this "TOS violation" (of demanding free work and if he's not getting it, trashing my feedback)? Because from all I read here in the forum, the client can do and say whatever he wants, pretty much, and Upwork will not take any action. There is also no (published) mechanism to report specific abuse, as far as I can tell (more than flagging a message which seems to do nothing).

So again, if demanding free work is a TOS violation, how do I bring it to the attention to an actual live person inside Upwork?

---

You may want to rethink your response to the client's feedback. The client left very coherent feedback, it's not an unhinged diatribe. Why did you allow him to change his feedback? 

[comm]

" Simply put, Jorg is a gaslighter and dishonest to the max."

"Don't get Jorg'd. When the going gets tough, Jorg gets lying--"

"He's talented, but lacks any shred of integrity. "

This is coherent feedback? It's full-on character asasination. And yes when someone writes 4000 characters going on and on with miniscule he-said / she-said (that no reader can verify), and which have nothing to do with the project at hand, I would personally call that a rant and not "appropriate feedback" according to Upwork's examples.

It's like watching an old married couple bicker. That is just not very useful for the next client to make a hiring decision. Perhaps permissible feedback but doesn't add a whole lot of value. What if I wrote a 4000-character rebuttal of he-said / she-said material?

The issue at hand here is not the promised, and delivered, feature A. It is the new feature B that he wants for free that he didn't even mention at the outset..

Anyone who has access to the private chat sees that no additional feature B was ever promised, at or near contract inception. I promised a fixed amount of hours, yes, but only for feature A that was agreed-upon, not for feature B that then later popped into his mind.

I allowed him to change the feedback because he asked me for the change link, implying the prospect that he would better my feedback. You can see this in the private chats. If I complied. I saw a chance to repair the situation to mutual benefit. I was tricked, yes, but how do I revoke this?

Thanks.

[a_lipsey]

---

Jorg S wrote:

" Simply put, Jorg is a gaslighter and dishonest to the max."

"Don't get Jorg'd. When the going gets tough, Jorg gets lying--"

"He's talented, but lacks any shred of integrity. "

This is coherent feedback? It's full-on character asasination. And yes when someone writes 4000 characters going on and on with miniscule he-said / she-said (that no reader can verify), and which have nothing to do with the project at hand, I would personally call that a rant and not "appropriate feedback" according to Upwork's examples.

It's like watching an old married couple bicker. That is just not very useful for the next client to make a hiring decision. Perhaps permissible feedback but doesn't add a whole lot of value. What if I wrote a 4000-character rebuttal of he-said / she-said material?

The issue at hand here is not the promised, and delivered, feature A. It is the new feature B that he wants for free that he didn't even mention at the outset..

Anyone who has access to the private chat sees that no additional feature B was ever promised, at or near contract inception. I promised a fixed amount of hours, yes, but only for feature A that was agreed-upon, not for feature B that then later popped into his mind.

I allowed him to change the feedback because he asked me for the change link, implying the prospect that he would better my feedback. You can see this in the private chats. If I complied. I saw a chance to repair the situation to mutual benefit. I was tricked, yes, but how do I revoke this?

Thanks.

---

Yes, it is coherent as is the rest of the very long, but well-written description of events from the client's perspective. Is the feedback bad? Yes. Is it angry? Yes. Is it well written and easy to follow? Also yes. It's not incoherent. Trust me, we can find walls of text that are unhinged rants with no through line or grammar, filled with incomplete sentences and typos. In those instances it's easy to question the client's credibility. Your client, while angry, comes across articulate and coherent, lending credibility. So leaving a response like yours is not helpful. I'd rethink the response. I'm not looking it up again to see what you said verbatim, but my advice would be to refrain from any accusations and simply say "We disagreed on how this project should proceed, and I regret that we could not come to agreement. Unfortunately that means we have to part ways. Best of luck to this client."  

Between your disclosure here on the forum, and the client's version in your feedback, to me it sounds like this was an issue of communication and maintaining client expectations through clear documentation. 

You said he is a lawyer, so he knows how to present a case, which he does in the feedback he left. You're better off saying very little versus trying to present your side in a response. 

[tlsanders]

---

Jorg S wrote:

So again, if demanding free work is a TOS violation, how do I bring it to the attention to an actual live person inside Upwork?

---

If the conversation happened in Upwork messaging, you can report the messages.

[petra_r]

---

Jorg S wrote:

I have such a situation where he's been asking me to do additional work for free. How egregious of a Upwork TOS violation is this?

---

If you agreed a cost ceiling for completing in scope work, asking for what was agreed is not asking for free work.

Even if it was, the client may get a reminder. It would not affect the feedback they left.

---

Jorg S wrote:

leaving an unhinged diatribe of a review; he **bleep** near wrote a book with petty and emotional character attacks on me, all in one long rambling paragraph.

---

that's not how it reads...

[comm]

Hi Petra, let me clear it up, as he managed to confuse you too:

If you agreed a cost ceiling for completing in scope work, asking for what was agreed is not asking for free work.

That was for feature A where I did in fact stay within the promised limits and spent more hours than I billed. No complaint from me there.

The issue at hand is: Halfway through, he tried to extort me to get additional feature B out of me, claiming it was within the scope -- but I refused. Feature B is a completely different API and is very difficult to implement and it wasn't mentioned with a peep when the contract started and the hourly cap was agreed-upon.

For not giving him feature B for free, is why I am getting "punished" by him with character assasination.

I understand that people quibble about scopes and this and that. That's for the freelancer to manage client's expectations. I am 100% on board with that policy.

Where I need Upwork's help is that he is using his feedback power as a lever to extort that feature B, or punish me because I didn't comply.

Aside from the name-calling which is uncalled for in any professional context; such feedback would be deleted from many P2P platforms but I understand that Upwork has less strict policies.

[petra_r]

---

Jorg S wrote:

Where I need Upwork's help is that he is using his feedback power as a lever to extort that feature B, or punish me because I didn't comply.

---

I'm afraid you'll likely be biting on granite there... Unless he clearly stated "Unless Jorg does B which is out of scope I will leave poor feedback" I wouldn't hold my breath.... At most Upwork might remove one or the other word if it is considered obscene or whatever. The feedback itself and it's impact on your JSS will remain.

[comm]

I may very well be biting on granite lol, but the very nature of his complaint, as he wrote it, is that I refused to deliver feature B in a project that was only about feature A. The rest is "adornments" of gossip he spreads about our private conversations, which I could rebut 1:1 if it weren't so ridiculous.

The core of his feedback is precisely that admission: "I, client, am teed off at this guy because he only gave me A, and not A+B." And it would be easy to verify for Upwork that B was, in fact, never promised, so the bad feedback is unwarranted.

I know, I am not "dreaming" that Upwork will remove this feedback hahah... but this "feature extortion loophole" is definitely a problem in Upwork's system.

Basically a client can make whatever crazy demands he wants, during the contract, and extort the freelancer with the implied or express threat of negative feedback.

[tlbp]

---

Petra R wrote:

---

Jorg S wrote:

I have such a situation where he's been asking me to do additional work for free. How egregious of a Upwork TOS violation is this?

---

If you agreed a cost ceiling for completing in scope work, asking for what was agreed is not asking for free work.

Even if it was, the client may get a reminder. It would not affect the feedback they left.

---

Jorg S wrote:

leaving an unhinged diatribe of a review; he **bleep** near wrote a book with petty and emotional character attacks on me, all in one long rambling paragraph.

---

that's not how it reads...

---

Agreed. Strong projection vibe from this one.

[comm]

Tonya: He confused you too. I am not complaining about feature A where I gave some free hours. He wants to present it that way, but the internal chats show that I never complained about hours I have voluntarily given. Nor did I complain about it in my latest feedback because that just confuses the issue.

I am complaining about feature B, which he wanted for free after feature A was completed. But feature B was never agreed upon. Sure he wants to present it as if I had renegged on my commitment for feature A, and you ate it up. 😄

Being toung-in-cheek here, if you all think what he wrote is so coherent and appropriate, can you explain to me what his actual complaint about me is? I mean where I violated any deal? I only see personal grievances like "he should have said this and then he said that and instead this happened so he deserves to be called "gaslighter", "no shred of integrity", "dishonest to the max", "liar". I mean people... is that how you speak to each other in the office when there is a problem?

I don't want to be "right" about this issue, but I also need to understand how this platform works and what you all consider "appropriate". So if it's well-written but still false, it's ok? We only discriminate against ragers with poor command of the English langauge. In what world is that angry type of feedback "appropriate"? 😄 If this were AirBNB or many a P2P platform, it would have been completely erased.

I would expect that upwork at least remove the phrases that are pure name-calling and character assasination; I don't think anyone deserves this. I feel like I am some environment here where angrily yelling at each other, calling each other names is considered "ok"... is it?

[petra_r]

---

Jorg S wrote:

So if it's well-written but still false, it's ok?

---

Basically, yes.

Upwork do not decide if feedback is factual or not. We'd be paying 30% fees to pay for the staff needed to decide "he says, she says" disputes.

---

Jorg S wrote:

I would expect that upwork at least remove the phrases that are pure name-calling and character assasination;

---

You MIGHT (if you put a lot of effort into it and waste a lot of your time) get some of the words removed. I don't thnk so but it has (incredibly rarely) been known to happen.

But the rest would stay anyway, so you'd really be wasting a lot of energy and time just to end up with no benefit.

It is also interesting that all the rest of us don't see the feedback left the way you do. 

[comm]

So moving forward, what do you suggest to prevent the client from "inventing" feature B after the contract for feature A has started and claiming that they were included?

In software development, there are a myriad of possible directions in which a program can develop. It's never "finished" and there is always "one more thing" that can be added. I worked very hard for this guy and delivered 1000s of liens of code that were hard to develop. I can't write a pages-long disclaimer of all the thngs that will NOT be included because future possibilities are not all foreseeable.

In this case, he imagined a thing B to be included that wasn't even mentioned at the outset. What can I possibly do to "manage expectations" -- aside from a list of  the things that are included?

However, he shred that list right up, and invented a new upside-down world where that feature B is "customarily included'. Hmm, ok.

My point is, the definition of abusers is that they find ways to be bad people, regardless of whether anything is wrong. A wife-beater will beat his wife because dinner was too cold, and if it wasn't, he will invent another reason, like the bed wasn't made right.

This very thread started about a lady who unreasonably demanded free work 3 months after closing of the contract. I understand that's life and 10% of people will be like that.

My question is, are there mechanisms in place in Upwork to weed out such people in the long run?

[petra_r]

---

Jorg S wrote:

In software development, there are a myriad of possible directions in which a program can develop. It's never "finished" and there is always "one more thing" that can be added.

---

Then it was unwise to include a cost ceiling on an hourly contract. That's basically the single factor that caused this thing going t*ts up.

If that hadn't been in place, you could have

a) tracked time happily while creating thing B

or

b) the client could have decided they didn't need (couldn't afford) thing B after all.

The whole thing wouldn't have gone south.

As to how to spot them..... Instinct. I learned to "sense" little red flags. I've ignored them at my peril.

---

Jorg S wrote:

 A wife-beater will beat his wife because dinner was too cold, and if it wasn't, he will invent another reason, like the bed wasn't made right.

---

Don't even go there. The comparison is breathtakingly inappropriate and offensive.

Please let me know if you need an explanation of why there is a universe of difference between being at the receiving end of poor feedback on a random page on the Internet and being beaten to pulp by an abuser... 

I really can't believe you just wrote that.  Unbelievable. You'll compare yourself to a victim of the holocaust next.

---

Jorg S wrote:

My question is, are there mechanisms in place in Upwork to weed out such people in the long run?

---

What makes you think the client has problems with their other freelancers? Does he?

If a client has a history of a high percentage of poor outcomes, their feedback is automatically excluded from their freelancers' JSS.

[comm]

As to how to spot them..... Instinct. I learned to "sense" little red flags. I've ignored them at my peril.

That's sage advice, I will never guarantee time caps on hourly contracts again, ever. Sets the wrong tone from the start.

I really can't believe you just wrote that. Unbelievable. You'll compare yourself to a victim of the holocaust next.

Ok who's projecting now? 😄 I never compared myself to beaten wives or holocaust victims. I said, the hallmark of abuse is that the abused doesn't need to make any mistakes, example domestic abuse.

Strike that and insert "treats the help bad". Or "habitually wants to get more than he paid for". Same line of personality IMO, though clearly less dramatic outcomes. Though for some here a lowered JSS is borderline catastrophic.

Upworks' system, as good as it is, does have that loophole. Feedback, as you said, doesn't need to be factual. Other P2P platforms, like AirBNB, do get into the he-said/she-said, they look at the photos, the facts, they censor "emotionally written" feedback, you can even call 24/7 and they assign a consultant to the case for free. And they only charge 15% 🙂

I think critiquing Upwork's business model is fair. If you allowe me to say, it would be helpful to not throw the "I'm offended and I can't believe you just wrote that" hammer -- even in the face of flowery language. I didn't come here to present myself a victim, that should be clear by now. Give me some credit, come on! 😄

I genuinely want to help improve a system (or at least understand a system) that I feel has some "loopholes" for clients who tend to always want to eek out that extra bit. Which is what this whole thread is about...

On a happy note, he came around and deleted his bad feedback 😄

[tlsanders]

The big mistake you made here was agreeing to do anything. 

I would guess that if she contacts Upwork, they will send her a cut-and-paste message saying they're sorry she's unhappy and suggesting that she try to work it out with you.

You won't respond to her again, so that will likely be the end of it.

[prestonhunter]

Three months...

THREE. MONTHS.

Somebody showed up three months after a contract was closed and thought she had the right to demand design changes!

There really are ALL KINDS of people in this world!

[prestonhunter]

re: "So again, if demanding free work is a TOS violation, how do I bring it to the attention to an actual live person inside Upwork?"

It IS a violation.

One can flag a job posting and there is a specific option for reporting a client asking for free work.

But aside from that, the existence of this prohibition does not mean that I rely on an Upwork employee to enforce this rule.

I have never thought about asking for Upwork's help to enforce this rule after a contract is already in place. I welcome input from others on this question. It never crossed my mind before.

It is Upwork freelancers who must enforce this rule.

If a client goes to Upwork Support and complains that a freelancer won't work for free, Support won't help that client force a freelancer to work for free.

But in most any way that matters, it is freelancers themselves that make sure clients don't violate this rule.

[roberty1y]

---

Preston H wrote:

Three months...

THREE. MONTHS.

Somebody showed up three months after a contract was closed and thought she had the right to demand design changes!

There really are ALL KINDS of people in this world!

---

Nothing surprises me on Upwork. If clients could rise from the dead, they'd be coming back looking for revisions and extra work.

[kimg93]

Thanks very much for your advice everyone. I feel more confident communicating this to her now. I will also try and flag/report as I really don't want to be receiving any more rude messages from her.

Thank you

[prestonhunter]

re: "I will also try and flag/report as I really don't want to be receiving any more rude messages from her."

Flagging/reporting won't stop her from sending you messages.

Right-click on her icon or name in the messages tool and BLOCK her.

re: "I feel more confident communicating this to her now."

You aren't required to communicate anything to her. You can simply block her.

[prestonhunter]

re: "On a happy note, he came around and deleted his bad feedback"

Jorg:

This is tremendous news.

Thanks for letting us know.

I see that the client replaced what appeared to be sordid Dostoevsky novella with "we had some issues but worked through them."