Client post saying don't apply from these Countries due to taxation matters.

[pranjal_rewatkar]

//Reposted in Topic Freelancer//

Hi, 

I am an Agency owner of a game development studio and I saw this gig which we were a good match for according to their requirements. 

But as I scrolled down the client had written this text below: 

"You will be asked to answer the following questions when submitting a proposal: 

Please specify where in the world you are from, At the moment we are not hiring people from Pakistan, India, Africa, China due to taxation matters, I am SORRY but please do not apply if you are from the above counties. 

Do not forget to send relevant portfolio, If you have created kids games in the past please feel free to send links!" 

Can someone explain what is the taxation matter they are talking about? 

Job Post Link:

**Edited for Community Guidelines** 

[feed_my_eyes]

I can't imagine what "tax matters" might apply to those particular regions. I think it's more likely to be a clear case of discrimination and they're just pretending that they have a legit reason for it. You can flag it if you want Upwork to look into it.

[ashrafkhan81]

The client could have discriminated by not hiring anyone from that region, he made it clear with a fake reason, so the smart people will not apply and not waste their connects. But you know what? He'll still end up with loads of proposals, especially from India and Pakistan! 

Any average Upwork client with some history on the platform will eventually have an Indian or Pakistani freelancer in their work history, this one does not, so he probably means it when he says he is not willing to hire from those regions, ofcourse for tax reasons 😜

[prestonhunter]

There is nothing wrong with a client having a preference about where they hire from.

All people have preferences about things.

If a client is not currently hiring from certain locations, then the client is doing people on those locations a service by saving them from wasting their time and wasting their connects.

[81f2681a]

I thinks any client has rights to choose from what location he wants to hire for any reason. Maybe he is just trying to avoid scammers, and maybe he thinks these countries is the ones that has most of them. (Yes there is freelancers who are scammers too, not just clients.). And there IS some countries that has more scammers than other countries has, the number is so high that I think some countries has more scammers than honest workers.

There is a country that I definitely don´t work anymore, when I see a job post form this specific country, I don´t bid in anyway. I just had very bad experiences with this specific country, so I don´t work for them anymore.

[prestonhunter]

Maybe a client lives in Japan. And he doesn't want to hire any freelancer writers from Japan because he doesn't need their perspective. He already has that within his local team.

Maybe a client lives in Nigeria. He doesn't want to hire any freelancers from Asia or Europe because his company doesn't have customers in those places.

Maybe a client's wife is Brazilian, and she asked him to not hire any freelancers from Brazil or Portugal.

There could be countless reasons why a client is not going to hire freelancers from specific places.

[feed_my_eyes]

---

Andre A wrote:

I thinks any client has rights to choose from what location he wants to hire for any reason. Maybe he is just trying to avoid scammers, and maybe he thinks these countries is the ones that has most of them. 

---

So - discrimination, in other words. 

[81f2681a]

If you had 3 bad experiences in a line with clients or freelancers from same country, then you decided to not work anymore with this specific country anymore, would you call that as "discrimination"? Ok, maybe 3 times is jus few times to decide not working for them anymore, then you try work again with this specific country, and 9 between 10 times is bad experiences, would you keep working for this country?

I knows that some clients don´t hire agencies in anyway, can I call it as "discrimination" too? All those clients said they had bad experience with agencies.

Could be many reasons a client don´t hire freelancers from specific country or region, it could be because he thinks they can´t do quality work, or because they can´t talk english very well, or because they get long time to deliver, or maybe they just don´t want to help a country that isn´t aligned to their life values, or as said above, just because someone´s wife said "I don´t want you hire anybody from this country, my dear. I love you!". And, in my opinion, clients has rights to hire or not hire whoever he wants, for any reason.

[prestonhunter]

Upwork's user interface has filter settings that have a list of every country that has freelancers, every region, and every continent.

A client may choose a SINGLE country or location to search for freelancers from. Or 2. Or 3. Or any number. A client could click on every country EXCEPT the United States and Sweden if she specifically wanted to NOT hire freelancers from United States or Sweden. Perhaps the client is from the United States and her husband is from Sweden, so she doesn't want to hire freelancers from those two countries.

It would be easier if Upwork provided a list which clients could click on specific regions or countries to exclude freelancers from, but Upwork doesn't currently have that as part of its user interface.

Christine, you are welcome to call this "discrimination" if you want to, and you are are welcome to state or imply that this is a "bad" thing. I understand where you are coming from.

But "discrimination" is something that everybody does every day and is a normal part of life, such as when when a friend asks if you want to go to a pie shop or a cupcake shop for dessert. Or when you decide to ask out Nancy from accounting rather than the your neighbor's cousin Jenni.

Other words for "discrimination" include "discernment", "preferences", "differentiation", "distinction."

If a client doesn't want to hire freelancers from France, are you going to tell them that they're not allowed to make that decision? Are you going to tell me that this client is wrong for making that decision? I'm not critiizing a person for being uncomfortable with this. I'm not going to say somebody has to agree wth me about this. My preference would be that people have more of an "off-hands" approach to clients making decisions about what is best for them.

And speaking very practically:

A client named "Patrick" is married to a woman from France. Patrick is NOT going to hire freelancers from France. Patrick is from Argentina. Patrick is NOT going to hire freelancers from Argentina. Patrick put in his job posting: "We are not hiring freelancers from France or Argentina for this job." I hope that people WILL NOT flag this job posting, and I hope that Upwork WILL NOT remove or censor such job postings. Because Patrick isn't going to hire freelancers from France or Argentina whether or not he is allowed to include that language in his job posting. If he isn't allowed to include this perfectly reasonable preference in his job posting, then the only people it hurts are freelancers from France and Argentina, who will be wasting their time and connects (money) if they apply to this job.

[feed_my_eyes]

---

Preston H wrote:

If a client doesn't want to hire freelancers from France, are you going to tell them that they're not allowed to make that decision? Are you going to tell me that this client is wrong for making that decision?

---

I'm going to say that they're wrong if they're excluding an entire continent and giving a BS reason like "tax matters". 

So is it okay if clients state a preference like, "No women" or "no Jews" or "no homosexuals", in your opinion? After all, they're just stating a preference.

[bilal1983]

Preston, could you help me understand why a person would automatically not hire from the country where his wife is from? I just find that to be quite funny.

[prestonhunter]

re: "Preston, could you help me understand why a person would automatically not hire from the country where his wife is from? I just find that to be quite funny."

A client would not automatically do that. You saw this mentioned in examples. Below are some examples written to help provide adding context, to answer your specific question:

Frank hires freelancers to handle social media marketing in countries around the world, where his company sells its products. He strongly believes in hiring people who,lived in the target countries themselves. His wife is from Bolivia and has extensive experience with social media marketing within Bolivia. So she directly handles that market. He now wants to hire social media marketers from around the world, for a new marketing campaign. But he won't be hiring anyone in Bolivia.

Samuel is hiring freelancers to take photographs of local bridges for a blog essay he is creating. His wife is going to be taking a trip, along with her mother, to their home country of Liberia. While there, they will take photographs of bridges themselves. He is hiring people from all over the world, but not people in Liberia.

Cedric is hiring freelancers to develop a new personnel website. His wife is from the Netherlands. She asked him not to hire anyone from there.

Henry is hiring freelance writers for a new prodict line. His wife is from Telnaria. She told him that she knows the kind of writing that Telnarian Upwork writers turn in and that he would be wasting his time hiring them. So he is not going to hire anyone in Telnaria for the job.

[bilal1983]

Are you married? Is she from another country, and has she forbidden you from hiring freelancers from her home country? 😄 That would make me understand this concept better... 

EDIT: Just wanted to add.... I hope I never run into a client who has a Pakistani wife....

[prestonhunter]

Bilal:

This thread has nothing to do with marriage or wives or me.

I think you are reading way too much into hypothetical examples.

This thread is clients who post job postings that specify countries or regions they want to hire freelancers from, or that they don't intend to hire from.

Here is an example:

A client hired any freelancers from around the world to work on his software development projects.

After doing this for about a year, his accountant told him that there were so many complications and difficulties associated with hiring freelancers from some specific countries, that they should not hire freelancers from those places. The client also knew that he had nothing but trouble when hiring freelancers from a specific continent.

When he posted his next job, he mentioned that he wouldn't be hiring from those countries or that continent, in an effort to avoid having freelancers from those places submit proposals. This would save him time and he knew it would save the freelancers from those places from wasting their time, money and connects.

[bilal1983]

Preston, I understand now. I just found your use of wives as examples funny and perhaps took it too far and teased. I know this thread is not about marriage, wives or your personal life. I'm sorry if I offended you. 

[prestonhunter]

re: "I'm sorry if I offended you."

No worries!

Your posts are great. You asked valid questions.

[feed_my_eyes]

The populations of India, Pakistan, China and the whole of Africa amount to something like 4 billion people. Making assumptions that everyone who lives there doesn't speak English very well or misses deadlines or whatever, is absolutely discriminatory, and Upwork has a policy against this. Maybe you'd like to read it for yourself: https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/360047360093-Upwork-s-Commitment-to-Nondiscrimination-I...

[prestonhunter]

Christine:

This is the pertinent document that people should read:

https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/360047360093-Upwork-s-Commitment-to-Nondiscrimination-I...

If anyone reads it, they will see that is not applicable to the job post quoted by the original poster.

In fact, this document makes it clear that the original poster's quote does not violate the spirit or intent of this Upwork policy:

"Clients and freelancers are free to decide on any lawful basis which freelancers or clients they would like to work with and which projects to post or accept."

Note that the non-discrimination document specifically does not say that where a freelancer lives is a "protected" class.

AND it states that people can not discriminate "unlawfully". The Upwork page states that clients may discriminate lawfully and provides specific examples of doing so.

So there are two reasons why the document doesn't apply: lawful discrimination is explicitly allowed and a person's place continent or where they live is not a protected group.

Nationality is specified, but not location. So, for example, this document would allow for not hiring a freelancer who lives in the United States (a location) but the document indicates that it would violate Upwork rules to discriminate against people whose nationality is U.S. American, regardless of where they live. It is fine to say you only want to hire people living in Pakistan, as long as you don't say you want to hire only people living in Pakistan as long as they are not U.S. citizens.

I totally get where you are coming from.

I agree with the philosophy of vigorous non-discrimination as set forth in Upwork's document. That is how I hire.

But I believe everyone is better off if clients have freedom to hire people from the countries they want to hire from, and if they can be honest about those preferences within their job posts.

[alexandernovikov]

They can't plain out say that they won't hire from X and Y countries **Edited for Community Guidelines**, so they invent this excuse.

[prestonhunter]

A business owner living in Billingon regularly hired landscapers.

During the past year, he hired 5 landscapers from Luton, 5 from Woburn and 5 from Dunstable.

All of the landscapers did quality work, commisserate with their credentials.

Except the landscapers from Dunstable. All of them did shoddy work and called in sick excessively. The business owner ran some numbers and saw he was actually losing money with every one of those hires.

The business owner's wife (who was actually born in Dunstable and still has family there) told her husband to stop hiring landscapers from Duntable. So he did. Whether or not this is "discrimination" is neither here nor there. His wife called it a "good business decision."

[m_terrazas]

---

Preston H wrote:

A business owner living in Billingon regularly hired landscapers.

During the past year, he hired 5 landscapers from Luton, 5 from Woburn and 5 from Dunstable.

All of the landscapers did quality work, commisserate with their credentials.

Except the landscapers from Dunstable. All of them did shoddy work and called in sick excessively. The business owner ran some numbers and saw he was actually losing money with every one of those hires.

The business owner's wife (who was actually born in Dunstable and still has family there) told her husband to stop hiring landscapers from Duntable. So he did. Whether or not this is "discrimination" is neither here nor there. His wife called it a "good business decision."

---

No matter how many examples you give, if you don't focus on what OP is commenting on, it doesn't matter if you go on and on.
Clients can specify that they are only interested in certain countries to work with, which is fine with me because there can be multiple reasons for this.
But, using such a blatant lie to avoid certain countries, I find it embarrassing and even more so that you support it.

OP's question is clear, "Can someone explain what is the taxation matter they are talking about?"
Can you answer this?
And no walls of text or irrelevant examples, please.

[prestonhunter]

I am not a tax expert. I think that that the whole question of taxation should be irrelevant. None of my examples were about taxation.

Clients can choose to not hire people from certain countries, regions or continents. Clients clearly do so, for a variety of reasons. I have hired over 180 freelancers, from every part of the world. I don't select freelancers based on where they live. So this is not my personal practice, but it is a real practice. Selecting a freelancer based on where they live is a practice that Upwork supports and enshrines in its user interface and policies.

I say that clients should be able to do so, using both inclusion and exclusion filters, and that Upwork should institute an additional filter that makes it easier to do so.

Are there legitimate tax reasons why a client would hire one freelancer over another? Of course. But I have no way of commenting on another client's tax situation. If the client is saying that in order to avoid Upwork restrictions on such language within job posts, I say that Upwork should lift those restrictions.

[the-right-writer]

It is a way to discriminate without appearing to discriminate. That being said, if you wish to rule out specific countries there are easy, simple, quick ways to use the filters to choose whom they wish. There is no need to literally advertise, because many freelancers don't even read the ads. There will still be plenty of applicants from every country.

[81f2681a]

I disagree. So, if the job post says "I want to hire someone just from Pakistan.", is it ok? The job post isn´t being discriminatory to all other countries on the world? Why clients can say in job posts that they wants to hire just people from a certain country and it is ok, but when they says they don´t want to hire people from a certain country of region, isn´t ok? In the first, "discrimination" is being applied to the rest of the world and, in the second, "discrimination" is being applied just to one country and isn´t ok, why? Double meassures, I see...

In my opinion, clients can have any preferences they wish, and if their preference is hiring freelancers from mars or venus, its their preferences and it´s their rights.

[the-right-writer]

Clients decide whom they wish to hire. I would not change that. In this case, I believe it is because they are prejudiced against people from certain countries. As a client, to rule out so many millions of people is foolish. There are great freelancers in all parts of the world. It does not, however, seem to violate the Terms of Service.

It has been my experience that clients phrase ideas in different ways. There is no point in advertising that you may discriminate - legally through Upwork or not. Clients sometimes want people from a specific location for the language and the local dialect and slang.

In this situation, I do not believe it has anything to do with taxes; it is about judgment. That's my opinion.

[alexandernovikov]

Hahah! This sort of posts - "i want to hire only from X, Y, or Z" (the 3 countries being from different continents, speaking different languages and having different dominant religions, but sharing in common one trait - very low GDP per capita) - makes me laugh every time. They scream "i am cheap, don't apply to me folks, you will waste your time with me".

[prestonhunter]

There are far more clients who only hire from those three countries, than clients who say they won't hire from those three counties.

Which is one of the reasons I don't think there is any sort of endemic problem that needs to rooted out.

[elisa_b]

As a freelancer, I never even take into consideration job postings from specific countries. I have my reasons for doing so. Am I acting in a discriminatory way myself, even if I don't state it publicly? I don't think so, I am just doing what I think is best for my business - and if I miss on great opportunities, that would be entirely my fault. I am eager to accept this risk.

The client made a faux pas by referring to imaginary taxation issues, that was such an obvious excuse. But if they have their own reasons for excluding freelancers from specific countries, well the client will face its consequences, for the good or for the bad. Surely I don't judge them and I see no discrimination here - real discrimination is a whole different thing.

[the-right-writer]

You have every right to conduct business as you choose. I am cautious with every client; sometimes I wonder if it's bordering on paranoia as I check time zones, scrutinize language and phrasing, investigate alleged past hires, and consider how the job could be a scam. I don't trust the client is located where they claim, no matter what country. I could be labeled as discriminating in my choices as well.

I think part of the issue is the interpretation of "discrimination." The word can mean bigotry and injustice or discernment and acumen.  Also, whether we are discussing legal or ethical,  morally/ethically right or wrong, and about this particular client or clients in general.

People with discriminating tastes are often admired for their ability to choose what some consider the finest in quality. Yet, the same word can mean despicable behavior that may have legal repercussions.

I think you can tell much from the way the job is worded. I've seen jobs where they want English speakers from Australia. I don't feel treated unfairly, because I know language and culture change from one country or region to the next.

I think twice before applying for a job, which to me speaks poorly of the client's mindset. If they are openly offensive, it tells me that they either do not understand how to conduct themselves in public or they don't care whom they offend and feel it is appropriate to declare personal feelings. My personal, admittedly limited experience with clients who make similar posts is that they tend to be very rigid. If my feelings are accurate, I will remove myself from the situation if possible. Everyone has the right to their opinion; however, if the client insists on bringing prejudice into the job, I won't work with them.

[bilal1983]

It sounds like the client is trying to present an excuse to discriminate by blaming'taxation matters'. It is clear that there are no known tax related issues in hiring from the said countries/regions.

If he had given a genuine reason for his preference, then we could've said it is not discrimination, but the way he went about it points out that he probably knows if he openly states WHY he does not want to hire from said regions, it would show his discrimination.

In general, clients are allowed to have their preference, based on practical and valid reasons for not wanting to hire from a particular country, but I think discrimination actually depends on someone's real intention, and it's not always easy to know what someones true intention is. Sometimes the intent is apparent as in the case of the OPs client.

[prestonhunter]

Bilal:
As a client, I have hired over 180 freelancers. I have hired freelancers from every continent (except Antarctica) and I have hired freelancers from all of the countries excluded from the job post quoted by the original poster.

I don't hire freelancers based on where they live. But I understand that many clients do and that Upwork allows this and that Upwork's user interface has many features which support this.

So nothing in this thread really applies directly to me.

re: "apparently one of those reasons is your wife being from that country?"

Like I said, this thread is not about me.

But if you are wondering about how client's wives or husbands have something to do with this discussion:

There are concerns expressed in this thread that a client posting geographic preferences in a job post is exhibiting discrimination. And if one uses a strict definition of the term "discrimination," that is true. Similarly, a client is practicing a form of discrimination when she hires a French-speaking translator to translate his manuscript into French, instead of hiring a French-speaking pastry chef, or a German-speaking translator.

These are business decisions, and the reasons behind these decisions are not "racial prejudice" or something along those lines. The client who is himself Chinese (born in the United States, but the son of immigrants) and his wife is Chinese (born in mainland China), but who does not hire freelancers from China is making a business decision. He doesn't harbor prejudice against Chinese people.

That is what those examples serve to illuminate: The difference between a business decision when it comes to hiring, and "discrimination" as the word is used in other contexts.

[bilal1983]

Edited my comment and removed the off-topic line.

So discrimination basically depends on the true intention of the client. If it is based on valid reasons for preference or lack of, for a particular geographic region, then it is a business decision, but if it's based on prejudice then it is discrimination. But sadly there's no litmus test to check true intention.

[yofazza]

There's a known bad neighborhood.

We don't generalize every single person in that area is a criminal, but we also don't walk into that area at night. A "business decision".

And, a good/wise person from that area should be able to see things from a higher point of view and shouldn't complain about generalization.

With that said, talking about these things usually goes into something that I don't know how to say it in English but probably it's something like "circular debate" or "futile discussion". I know this because we have lots of (racial, ethnic, religion) discrimination problem here. I'd just flag and ignore if I feel discriminated and leave it to the staff and their rules/stand to decide. And in fact I believe they (staffs) take this thing quite seriously. 2-3 days ago I read a client complained about being banned for discrimination in the Client forum. He wrote his defense there but the thread is gone after a few minutes. I thought the thread was moved so I searched and even looked 1 by 1 into other forums but can't find it. So it's moved to a forum I can't see. If not please tell me where it is 😅

[bilal1983]

It's a good scneario you've presented.

However, there is a twist. What if there's a misconception or misrepsentation about what is 'known' about a neighbourhood. Chinese-whispering could be involved to a certain extent.

Maybe this particular neighborhood which someone went through, they didn't realize is a huge one and they just passed through a few blocks of it and were victims of crime? And those who heard of this place from victims, thought it was the same in size and population as compared to their much smaller neighborhood?

For e.g. a small town only a few blocks, with 50 people has 6 reported crimes per month, and the larger neighborhood 'known' as bad was much bigger in area and has 50,000 people and a reported 3000 crimes. Percentage-wise the smaller town has a higher crime rate.

And if you ask the people living in the larger town, they don't really think the crime-rate is too bad. So, the good/wise person would complain about generalization, and would advise to avoid certain areas of the town at certain times.

[pranjal_rewatkar]

Thanks, everyone for their insights into this job content, In the end, I believe the client has the right to hire from the country of their choice and exclude others if they have some bad experience with the freelancers of that specific country.

But they should be clear instead of giving foolish reasons like taxation matters because as a freelancer I legitimately thought that I could lose work because there are different taxation rules in some countries. So the Client who posted this should have not misled freelancers from these countries with reasons like taxation. Us freelancers also have to put a lot of faith in clients when accepting a job, It's not only the other way.