Solved: Client scammer

04478534 · ‎12-27-2021

Since few weeks I tried to contact a client. He doesn't answer me anymore. The probs? We open a milestone of 72$, and he added lot of more work because he was in rush. As 99% of freelancers in this situation, we make a deal and work with the client on a good flow. Unfortunately this client never answered me once the work was done. In 5 years, it's the first it happens to me.

Upwork support speaks about the procedure that every freelancers know, it's ok. But why Upwork let this kind of client on his platform? I checked his feedback and I am not the only one to be in this situation. In short, this client ask freelancer to do not request milestone, add work again and again, and never paid or answer when the work is done.

It's an agency, not a small client. So my question, why don't investigate more? Is client more important for you than freelancer? Are you afraid to ban client from your platform?

I hope you will understand that this story is just a beginning for me, cause I personally hate injustice, and I will find a way to have justice.

roberty1y · ‎12-27-2021

Jean-Laurent B wrote:

I hope you will understand that this story is just a beginning for me, cause I personally hate injustice, and I will find a way to have justice.

The only justice that exists on Upwork is incorporated in the terms of service and the advice it gives to users. If you abide by that, you won't be scammed. On the other hand, if you do jobs without a milestone and the client won't pay, it's too late. If Upwork tried to help freelancers in that situation by pursuing the clients for the money they owe them, they would need to charge them 90 percent commision instead of 20.

Upwork has a very well thought out system for ensuring that people get paid, probably the most efficient and cost effective one that any such site has come up with. Anyone who works outside that system, e.g. by doing a job that's not funded, can't come back and expect Upwork to solve their problem at the company's expense. This would incur costs that would have to be passed on to other feelancers. I don't want to pay for the mistakes of others.

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petra_r · ‎12-27-2021

Jean-Laurent B wrote:
As 99% of freelancers in this situation, we make a deal and work with the client on a good flow.

Are you sure about that? 99% of freelancers work without a milestone?

Jean-Laurent B wrote:
I checked his feedback and I am not the only one to be in this situation. In short, this client ask freelancer to do not request milestone, add work again and again, and never paid or answer when the work is done.

The time to check a client#s history is before applying and again before accepting the contract. Had you done that, you wouldn't be in this situation now, would you?

It is not reasonable to expect Upwork to step in when you didn't follow the process that is in place to protect you (milestones) or look at the information that is there to inform you (client's history).

I bet you won't make those two mistakes again.

Jean-Laurent B wrote:
I hope you will understand that this story is just a beginning for me, cause I personally hate injustice, and I will find a way to have justice.

What do you mean?

04478534 · ‎12-27-2021

Actually, once you have a milestone opened, and a client asks you for one more work and he tells you "I will add that in the next milestone" yeah, 99% of freelancers do this because they have the first milestone. I am CEO and hire freelancers on a lot of websites, and everyone do that.

Please don't defend Upwork, you really don't care that UpWork let scammers hire a freelancer on their website? You feel comfortable with the idea that some of them who lives in south economic country was never paid by scammer?

What I mean is this post and topic will lasts a long time, cause this kind of problem need to be solved. Freelancer can't be scammed, and support and upwork shouln'd close their eyes on this point.

petra_r · ‎12-27-2021

Jean-Laurent B wrote:
Please don't defend Upwork, you really don't care that UpWork let scammers hire a freelancer on their website?

I care that people learn how to use Upwork safely and properly. If that means that they follow the set processes, read a client's history and work on properly funded milestones, that's great.

If they learn this by NOT doing the above and thus learning the hard way, that's also a valid way to learn.

Jean-Laurent B wrote:
I am CEO and hire freelancers on a lot of websites, and everyone do that.

You are "CEO" and you ask freelancers to work for free and without a properly funded milestone? Shame on you.

If you do that on Upwork, sooner or later a freelancer will report you for asking for free work which is a violation of Upwork's terms of service.

Jean-Laurent B wrote:
You feel comfortable with the idea that some of them who lives in south economic country was never paid by scammer?

Nope, I feel comfortable with the idea that I can protect myself if I use some common sense, use the site correctly and do my due diligence before working with a client. That has NOTHING to do with the economy you live in, that is just basic common sense.

I'm all grown up. I don't need a nanny to protect me when I mess up. I learned years ago that if I decide not to use safety measures that are designed to protect me, I could and probably eventually will get hurt. This is as true in freelancing as it is in every other aspect of life, sport, traffic, relationships, etc.

04478534 · ‎12-27-2021

Don't spend lies on me please. Stop defamation.

You are defeding upwork like if it depends of your life. Are you paid to do that?

I never ask free work, I even give bonus to a big part of my freelancer, because they all became friends. Some have even part of my company. And here whare you are doing is defamation. You take what I say and try to defend upwork, you are awesome.

a_lipsey · ‎12-27-2021

Jean-Laurent B wrote:
Actually, once you have a milestone opened, and a client asks you for one more work and he tells you "I will add that in the next milestone" yeah, 99% of freelancers do this because they have the first milestone. I am CEO and hire freelancers on a lot of websites, and everyone do that.
-

I don't. I don't work without a funded milestone. I also don't expect freelancers to work without a funded milestone. I have only ever had one client complain that they had to fund a milestone, and they also then asked me to take payment off platform, so I ended the contract and reported them. Everyone does not "do that." Only freelancers willing to take the risk "do that."

Jean-Laurent B wrote:
Please don't defend Upwork, you really don't care that UpWork let scammers hire a freelancer on their website? You feel comfortable with the idea that some of them who lives in south economic country was never paid by scammer?

Upwork can't know that a client will behave this way prior to letting them on the site. But additionally, this is a he said/she said. It's your word against the client's. How is Upwork supposed to adjudicate that? Did you deliver the work to the client? If they did not pay for the work then you own it. Inform them of that and prohibit them from using until such time that they pay.

But furthermore, it's not about defending Upwork, but looking at where the solution to the problem really is. The solution to the problem is not for Upwork to spend millions of dollars and increasing our fees and driving clients away by "vetting" them, but by freelancers simply not working unless a milestone is funded. One is certainly far easier than the other.

I'm sorry this happened to you. It's a hard lesson to learn. But as Petra remarked, I'm certain you won't make that mistake again.

04478534 · ‎12-27-2021

The problem is not me, the problem is why you can't recognize that you let scammer on upwork? I mean, if this guy do this to 10 people, new on upwork, you will tell to this people, "it's the game"? You should read ToS?

petra_r · ‎12-27-2021

Jean-Laurent B wrote:
The problem is not me

Oh, someone else didn't bother to read the client's history and someone else worked without a properly funded milestone?

The problem is usually the people who think "the problem isn't me".

a_lipsey · ‎12-27-2021

Jean-Laurent B wrote:
The problem is not me, the problem is why you can't recognize that you let scammer on upwork? I mean, if this guy do this to 10 people, new on upwork, you will tell to this people, "it's the game"? You should read ToS?

"I" have not let anyone on Upwork.

Yes, all new freelancers should read the TOS and learn how to protect themselves. Upwork cannot protect you if you don't follow the rules. It's really as simple as that. A seatbelt can't protect you in a car crash if you aren't wearing it. A helmet can't protect you from brain injury in a motorcycle crash if you aren't wearing it. Upwork can't protect you against scammers if you don't follow the rules. The rules are there to protect you against scammers. If you won't avail yourself of the protection, what are we supposed to do? Micromanage you so you don't get scammed? I thought you were a big-time CEO? Shouldn't you be able to discern how to protect yourself against scammers by following the rules set in place for the sheer purpose of protecting you?

Honestly, you don't sound like a CEO. You sound like an employee who wants to be managed closely.

04478534 · ‎12-27-2021

I believe in human, it's a part of my christian education. If you ask me to work for you and you tell you will paid me, I will believe to you. I refuse to live in your selfish word where you tell to people to educate themselves, to read ToS, to show paper, to validate if there are good or not.

Be an employee is a gift for a CEO, it's where you learn to be human and how to fight for their probs. If a CEO should sound like a selfish one who wants to explode the world in order to send some men on Pluton to have a bigger Wikipedia page, I would be happy to stay away from what a CEO should be 🙂

a_lipsey · ‎12-27-2021

If you don't believe in contracts then why should the client?

Stop playing like you understand business. The problem is here is that you don't. The problem is that you want to believe every person on the internet that they will pay you when Upwork explicitly tells you how to protect yourself against scammers. You want someone to run your business for you. Frankly, you should go ahead and leave Upwork. You are only going to continue to have these problems, since you refuse to read or abide by the TOS or fraud/scam protection recommendations.

This is not selfishness. This is ruthless compassion. You cannot take care of yourself or your business online. It would be safer for you to only conduct business with people you personally know.

04478534 · ‎12-27-2021

Because actually client was a milestone open with me, and ask me one small task. Then one more, then ask me he will only validate after I do the task. This kind of probs could happen to everybody. Of course not you and the one who answered, too educated, but random people like me are close to meet this situation in their future.

You defend Upwork like if it was your life. I am out of Upwork since a long time, I stay here because one of my clients and freelancers. And yeah it's selfishness.

a_lipsey · ‎12-27-2021

You don't make any sense. Validate what?

Who exactly is selfish?

Myself and others who have commented over and over that the way to protect oneself is by understanding how to appropriately use the platform spend countless hours on the forum educating others - for free. You are here trying to blame your own error on others. Who is selfish?

Most of us continue to beg for an appropriately readiness test for new freelancers so they avoid scams. This would be a much better use of Upwork's limited resources that chasing after clients and freelancers who refuse to use the platform correctly even when they know better (this isn't about new freelancers, is it? Because you aren't new and you do know better. You chose to put yourself at risk. And you expected others to take care of you. That's selfishness right there, bud.)

All you have is a he said/she said with your client. Upwork does not need to spend limited resources trying to figure out your own contracting error. Upwork resources would be much better spent educating new freelancers so they don't do what you did. But no, you want everyone to operate however they want (you want) and you want Upwork to.cover you from all of OUR fees. Who is really selfish here? Stop and think.

04478534 · ‎12-27-2021

Yeah the Avengers of Upwork. It's awesome. Send me your CV, I have a friend in Hollywood, he would be happy to make a script for your incredible story Wonder Woman.

a_lipsey · ‎12-27-2021

You're the only person telling stories here. Unfortunately it's not a very good one. Stop trolling and go do some real work, CEO.

04478534 · ‎12-27-2021

It's my job, telling bad stories that nobody read, employee*

a_lipsey · ‎12-27-2021

Well, I have to go work on my funded milestone with my happy clients who will certainly pay me. No more time to try and educate and help a troll who is telling stories about his made up injustice and his Hollywood friends.

prestonhunter · ‎12-27-2021

re: "Since few weeks I tried to contact a client. He doesn't answer me anymore."

Clients are not obligated to respond to freelancers.

As a freelancer, I get paid the same amount, whether or not a client responds.

re: "We open a milestone of 72$, and he added lot of more work because he was in rush."

I don't care if a client is in a rush. A client can not "add a lot more work" to a milestone. A client can not add a little bit of work to a milestone.

A fixed-price milestone means that a specific amount of money was set aside for a specific task. The task can't change.

If a client is in a rush, then he needs to set up an hourly contract to pay me for my work.

Or he needs to RELEASE the money currently in escrow and ask me if he may set up a new fixed-price milestone to pay for the new work.

re: "But why Upwork let this kind of client on his platform?"

Upwork has no way of enforcing or controlling these things.

Freelancers are the ones who need to enforce these policies.

When I say:
"A client may not change a milestone in any way. A client may not ask for additional things."

...This is all true. But there is no way for Upwork to ensure this happens. It is my responsibility, as the freelancer, to instruct the client in how to use the platform properly when dealing with me.

04478534 · ‎12-27-2021

In fact in France, where I live, once you have an invoice, yeah client are obligated to answer, it could allow a law action 🙂

I care if a client is in rush. I am human, you're not.

prestonhunter · ‎12-27-2021

This is not France. This is Upwork.

On Upwork, clients are not obligated to respond to freelancers.

If I click the "Submit work for payment" button, then a client can do absolutely nothing, and I still get paid the same amount as if the client responds by releasing payment. If the client comments or says "thank you," that is nice. But if the client doesn't respond, the money I receive is the same.

Upwork's system, wherein freelancers get paid AUTOMATICALLY is better than having a "law" that "requires" a client to manually respond to an invoice. Upwork's legal language essentially stipulates that by doing nothing, the client is allowing payment to be made to the freelancer.

04478534 · ‎12-27-2021

If you want to be the slave of the submit work button, I could do one for you in my company, you will be happy to be one of them. Millions USD leave upwork everyday because poor business plan and support system. And by replying like this you only showing why this website has no future: because clients and freelancer for you are nothing.

Read bible, try to make you friends, became human againts.

martina_plaschka · ‎12-27-2021

And yet, you are still here. Can't be that bad, can it.

martina_plaschka · ‎12-27-2021

Clients are more important than freelancers. That is nothing new. They bring the money to the platform. If 10K clients tried to join each day, desperately to get on upwork, which a small number of freelancers, it would be the other way around.

That does not mean that upwork wants bad clients. They don't. They will ban clients for all kinds of violations. This might be one of them, or it might be not. First and foremost, it's every freelancer's responsibility to use the platform correctly and always get paid. If a client tells me that he needs something really urgently and can't create a milestone, I tell him I'm happy to wait.

Upwork doesn't have the resources to read your messages and determine who is right and who is wrong. In short, if you have done work not covered in a milestone, you will not get paid.

04478534 · ‎12-27-2021

That's the prob. They don't ban that client. They close their eyes. Can we even report a client? Why do not investigate? Is it better to live the eyes closed, in a platform where scammer could find way to scam when they want?

martina_plaschka · ‎12-27-2021

Every client can be reported by flagging the job posting.

feed_my_eyes · ‎12-27-2021

Jean-Laurent B wrote:
We open a milestone of 72$, and he added lot of more work because he was in rush. As 99% of freelancers in this situation, we make a deal and work with the client on a good flow.

If a client is in a rush, then they need to hurry up and fund the milestone so that there are no delays. If they refuse to fund the milestone, I don't start working (and I highly doubt that 99% of other freelancers would, either). If the client is having payment problems, there's no reason for it to become my problem or Upwork's problem.

Jean-Laurent B wrote:
I hope you will understand that this story is just a beginning for me, cause I personally hate injustice, and I will find a way to have justice.

I hope you understand that Upwork is very clear that freelancers shouldn't work on unfunded milestones, and there's no dispute process if you choose to ignore this. All you can do is leave feedback for the client in order to warn other freelancers, and hope that they read it and don't make the same mistake that you did.

04478534 · ‎12-27-2021

You bet? Should i make you a video of a scam? I am CEO and have a client account on upwork, how many freelancer could I scam if I open a 50$ milestone then I ask more and more work? A lot I tell you. So, stop to to defend Upwork like a guru.

Nope. What I can do, is let this post, and write it evryday. Make duplicate content of all content I make for this freelancer, contact his client and tell them about it. And make justice action against him, cause in France freelancer are protect too.

prestonhunter · ‎12-27-2021

Regardless of how many other freelancers are willing to make the same mistake, the more important thing is what YOU will do.

If you have specific ideas for how Upwork can change things to make the platform better for freelancers and/or clients, you are welcome to post those ideas here in the Forum.

But it is always more effective when we separate:

- talking about how to use the Upwork platform effectively, based on how it exists right now

[from]

- talking about ways that we would like to see the platform change in the future

04478534 · ‎12-27-2021

The more important, is you have lot of freelancers of south economic. If you use this system you could steal them. For us, 50$ is nothing, for other on earth, it's lot of.

Improve Upwork? Yeah, try to understand freelancers before clients. Upwork is yet a small company, and I know lot of CEO and companys who stops to work here because the probs I quote here.

True is my mistake. But it's every human mistake, once you are confident with someone, you make mistake. So it's a really big prob to don't investigate more, at least to tell avoid freelancer to have this kind of experience, cause this client was 4.6/5, but if you scroll a long time you could see that experience was made over and over by other, but yeah... you need to scroll a looooong time.

martina_plaschka · ‎12-27-2021

Upwork explicitely tells you to never work without a funded milestone. Yet you did. What would you tell a fellow freelancer that complains about it? You might tell them to read the ToS and adhere to them, or not?

petra_r · ‎12-27-2021

Jean-Laurent B wrote:
Upwork is yet a small company, and I know lot of CEO and companys who stops to work here because the probs I quote here.e.

LOL... Are you quite done with your "I'm CEO" - We are all CEO of our freelancing business...

Upwork is "a small company?" REALLY?

And clients don't leave Upwork because of what you describe. Freelancers who don't use Upwork correctly maybe. That's fine. There are way too many freelancers on Upwork anyway.

Upwork is literally drowning in freelancers.

04478534 · ‎12-27-2021

Are you paid to defend upwork?

Upwork is what a 4.5B company in stocks, for what 20 years of work? So yeah, it's a small company.

Client leave upwork for what of I describe. I know a bunch who doesn't stay here for mix a fees and bad support. Stop telling mistake. Now, are you paid for what you telling here?

petra_r · ‎12-27-2021

Jean-Laurent B wrote:
Now, are you paid for what you telling here?

Of course not. I am a top rated Plus Upwork freelancer with near $600k in billing on the platform.

It is typical for a certain type of person to accuse someone who disagrees with them of being paid. Cheap trick. Very transparent.

04478534 · ‎12-27-2021

It's a question. Why should you defend Upwork? The best way to help Upwork is to help them to understand their prob, not close the eyes. It's a cool support you do for them here, you are the better advocate.

You live in selfish world, where you prefer defend company and the rich more than freelancers and poors. I am happy to open this post, because it will last.

martina_plaschka · ‎12-27-2021

Rest assured, upwork knows the problem. They know that both clients and freelancers can be scammers. Read the announcements. Read the forum. There are many things in place to protect both parties. It is impossible to get scammed when using upwork correctly.

The problem is people refusing to educate themselves.

04478534 · ‎12-27-2021

Educate? Please we pay 20% fees on new milestones with new clients. I really want to be educated if you delete this fees. You see the prob? I paid thousand USD of fees, I should have, at least, a support here or anywhere, who investigates a bit.

I don't do this for me, but for you. For all uneducated, for newcomers. Because it will happen again, and again.

martina_plaschka · ‎12-27-2021

Of course you are free to take legal action. Nobody is saying you can't.

feed_my_eyes · ‎12-27-2021

Jean-Laurent B wrote:
You bet? Should i make you a video of a scam?

I'm not saying that you weren't scammed. You definitely were. But you're blaming Upwork for this, when you were the one who made bad choices. You can either learn from your mistakes, or not. Again, your choice.

Jean-Laurent B wrote:
I am CEO and have a client account on upwork, how many freelancer could I scam if I open a 50$ milestone then I ask more and more work? A lot I tell you.

You must be choosing to work with some very inexperienced freelancers, if they don't read feedback and don't object to unfunded milestones.

04478534 · ‎12-27-2021

You know why Amazon is number 1 in the world? Cause once their clients have this kind of problem they find for them a solution. Their logo is a smile, it means a lot. Here, hope it never happens to you otherwise you will be like me.

Very inexperienced freelancers? You really want to bet? I work with some of the top freelancers on lof of sites, and because they know me, they don't even ask milestone or so on. I could scam them everyday. And lot of companies and agency work like that.

martina_plaschka · ‎12-27-2021

The Amazon logo isn't a smile, it's an arrow pointing from A to Z. It's about delivery. If it were a smile, I'd probably find them even creepier. Anyway, go to the client section and read about client accounts getting suspended. It happens every day when diligent freelancers flag job postings for violations.