Difficult and abusive client?

[hweselcouch]

Hi Upwork community!

I'm pretty new to freelancing on upwork and I've only ever had amazing experiences with some amazing clients. This week, however, I got a doozy. I'm feeling so bad about my experience I'm ready to stop working on upwork all together. Here's what's happening: 

I accepted an offer to flip a poorly built PowerPoint deck into Google Slides...in under four hours....for $75.

I have over 10 years of presentation design experience so yes, the offer is a little low. I wanted to take the project because it was for an interesting start-up that encourages little kids to play basketball.

I worked so quickly to flip a V1 in under 2 hours that I was sweating. The client approved V1, released $30, and gave me changes for a V2 which I needed to have back to her in another 2 hours. Amazingly, I got it done and sent the final file for her to review.... then, radio silence for four days. 

I reached out to her today and was met with quite the shock when she told me my work was not up to her standards and she was forced to hire another designer. She claims her approval of my V1 was not an OK to start on V2 (even though she gave me notes?) and refuses to pay the other $45. After I picked my jaw up off the floor I kindly responded that what she had done wasn't in good faith, if she didn't intend to pay me for a second draft she should not have a) approved V1 and b) given me notes. I told her I want to make it right for no additional charge but she just keeps saying my work is "unsatisfactory" and she's refusing to pay the difference. This isn't about the money. $75 for four hours of tense, expedited work is already too low to merit any kind of seriou dispute but she's now threatening to leave me an awful review. 

Has anyone else dealt with something like this? What can I do? What SHOULD I do? I'm so stressed out about the whole situation and really sad. I feel used and scammed. Initial PPT and V2 PDF are attached for reference btw. I did everything she asked me to do and more. 

advice kindly requested!

Helen

**edited for Community Guidelines**

[prestonhunter]

You know you can quit working for a client at any time, right?

[hweselcouch]

I don't want anything to impact my ability to find new clients i.e. a bump to my JSS or an awful (and unmerited) review. At this point I'm just going to refund her the initial $30 to erase everything as I was insulting myself and my experience accepting the $75 in the first place. I just can't help feeling like I've been scammed and I don't want her to continue to be able to do this to other freelancers. 

[prestonhunter · Accepted solution]

I think that is a good plan.

I certainly would not spend any more of my time in a situation like that in order to keep $30.

If you refund all the money, and then close the contract, it won't appear on your profile page.

If you close the contract, the possibility exists that the client never leaves feedback. If she leaves negative feedback, then that can negatively impact your JSS. But the amount of the effect is weighted based on the dollar amount of the contract. Hopefully if she does leave any feedback, but impact will be minimal.

[hweselcouch]

I refunded her the $30 wishing her well and hoping she can use the refund to find a designer to better suit her needs. I really want to wash my hands if it but she keeps messaging me saying I'm "offensive." In reviewing the terms of our fixed-price contract I do believe she is in the wrong and I feel very unsafe. Don't card about the money but how can I report her and/go over this incident with someone from upwork who can answer some questions I have?

[pgiambalvo]

Yes, report her to UW and ask your questions. But first off, I'd block her to stop recieving any more messages from her. That should send her a pretty clear message that you're done with her.

[prestonhunter]

re: "but how can I... go over this incident with someone from upwork who can answer some questions I have?"

This thread, in this Community Forum, is where you can get answers to your questions.

[tlbp]

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Helen W wrote:

I don't want anything to impact my ability to find new clients i.e. a bump to my JSS or an awful (and unmerited) review. At this point I'm just going to refund her the initial $30 to erase everything as I was insulting myself and my experience accepting the $75 in the first place. I just can't help feeling like I've been scammed and I don't want her to continue to be able to do this to other freelancers. 

---

There is nothing you can do to prevent the client from leaving the feedback of their choosing if they want to. 

If you close the contract, you may get lucky and the client won't bother to leave feedback and you can dodge it that way. 

If you want to warn other freelancers, give the client a 3 to 4 star rating and write a very short statement indicating that the client did not pay the 2nd agreed milestone. Smart freelancers will understand the subtext. Don't tell a long story in your feedback that makes you appear contentious as the only people who will really scrutinize it are potential clients. 

Also, in my non-scientific opinion, clients who need urgent work almost always have high expectations and little respect for your time. A credible client would have understood that this type of work at such speed was a difficult task and offered to pay much more to have it completed. 

[vitaliy-kuzmich]

If you quit any time, you would have bad review, wasted time and no money!

[a_lipsey]

I'm sorry you experienced this. I think it's quite possible she was scamming you to get the slide deck for free. I thought the work you did to fix the slide deck was good. Maybe it wasn't her style or she wanted changes, but it's the client's job to communicate revisions or changes they want. I recently worked with a graphic designer I've worked with on many projects on cleaning up my go-to slide deck and it was a few rounds of revisions, just tweaking things. It's not a "hands-off" process. 

I think she was either trying to scam you or expected you to read her mind. And I know a bad review on the profile isn't desirable, but now your feedback about her won't be visible to other freelancers either. And her private feedback can still impact your JSS. 

You know the answer to all this: in the future, only work for clients who know your worth and value your time. $75 for that turn around time is simply ridiculous. 

[hweselcouch]

This made me feel better after an overall sucky day. Thank you!

[AveryO]

Hi Helen, 

I'm sorry to learn about your experience with this contract. I looked into this further, and I can see that the client funded the first milestone and paid you for it. While they did leave feedback on the first milestone, they did not fund the second milestone. We always recommend that freelancers refrain from working on unfunded milestones. This doesn't protect you and your client under Upwork's Payment Protection program. Please note that only the money that's held in escrow is secure. Upwork can't help you collect any funds that have been promised but not deposited to escrow. Therefore, it's crucial that the amount held in escrow is appropriate for the work you will perform for that milestone. 

I can see that you already have an open ticket regarding the same concern. Please don't hesitate to update the same ticket thread if you have further questions about this contract. 

[hweselcouch]

Yes I completely understand. But the requesting of specific changes and reminding me that it's due in 2 hours are clear indicators that she was expecting a second draft. It's 100% my fault for getting so caught up in the lightening fast turnarounds that I didn't stop to see that the 2nd milestone wasn't funded (another clear indication of a scam).

Then... doesnt coming back to me saying I didn't make the requested changes (which I have proof that I did) blatantly imply that she was, in fact, waiting on a 2nd draft? I was working in good faith. If she wanted to stop working with me she should have a) cancelled the contract immediately and b) not given me feedback and a due date for round two. I also checked and she has no other job requests for any kind of presentation work so she is undoubtedly using my work which she obtained for free. Sad to start 2022 stuck in an upwork scam and really hope there is a way to report her so she can't keep doing this  😞 

[prestonhunter]

This should have been an hourly contract, not a fixed-price contract.

[a_lipsey]

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Helen W wrote:

Yes I completely understand. But the requesting of specific changes and reminding me that it's due in 2 hours are clear indicators that she was expecting a second draft. It's 100% my fault for getting so caught up in the lightening fast turnarounds that I didn't stop to see that the 2nd milestone wasn't funded (another clear indication of a scam).

Then... doesnt coming back to me saying I didn't make the requested changes (which I have proof that I did) blatantly imply that she was, in fact, waiting on a 2nd draft? I was working in good faith. If she wanted to stop working with me she should have a) cancelled the contract immediately and b) not given me feedback and a due date for round two. I also checked and she has no other job requests for any kind of presentation work so she is undoubtedly using my work which she obtained for free. Sad to start 2022 stuck in an upwork scam and really hope there is a way to report her so she can't keep doing this  😞 

---

I totally get this. It's a risk we take, acting in good faith when there is a deadline. If you put the brakes on, the client thinks you're uncooperative because, who knows, they are in a meeting currently and need it for the very next meeting, OR, they are playing you. 

Also, in just 4 hours, it's not like you can work miracles. Even if everything wasn't perfect, it was FOUR hours! I had a client who wanted me to edit something and have meetings with her about it, and generally editing this specific document takes a few hours, so I added the time I estimated for the revisions with the 2 meetings she wanted to have and gave her a quote. She then wanted me to negotiate to only spend an hour editing, and then two short meetings. I said okay but that limits how much I can do. Then she was disappointed with the result. Well, duh! I'm good but genius takes just a tiny bit of time, you know? lol...it's okay though, you learned what I learned. Don't compromise your process or your worth. 

[vitaliy-kuzmich]

Helen is a second victim(for today) of your fixed price projects, I think you should stop the contract and send warning to the email in case current milestone closed and client did not fund the next milestone. There is definitely something wrong with your fixed price projects, please do something with it. I also have negative expereince with fixed price projects.

[martina_plaschka]

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Vitaliy K wrote:

Helen is a second victim(for today) of your fixed price projects, I think you should stop the contract and send warning to the email in case current milestone closed and client did not fund the next milestone. There is definitely something wrong with your fixed price projects, please do something with it. I also have negative expereince with fixed price projects.

---

Nonsense. Nobody is a "victim" of fixed price contracts unless they disregard all common sense and don't use upwork as intended. Who needs a warning that the next milestone is not funded? Come on! You see it in the contract at any time, and you get an email once the milestone is updated. 

[martina_plaschka]

Not related to your original question: you have 6 ended contracts, but only 2 with feedback. Don't end contracts yourself, always let the client do it. You need feedback to build a presentable profile. Once you get a JSS, the less contracts with feedback you have, the more each one counts. 

Also, I'm totally against hiding earnings. It just looks like you have --- something to hide, when you really don't or at least shouldn't. Your earnings are a marketing tool. People want to know what range you usually earn, and if they have a project in that range, they get a good feeling that they are in the right place. The hourly rate means nothing if it is not reflected in the jobs you did. Too often (not saying in your case) the hourly rate seems to be nothing more than a wish-list. Some people have an hourly rate of e.g. $50, but work for 5$. This is the kind of incongruency is not a good look on a profile. 

[hweselcouch]

Hi Martina,

Thanks for this interesting response, however, it feels like this kind of advice contributes to freelancers feeling like upwork is working against them. When I started with upwork I read all of the information available to me and there is quite literally a section of the manual that appears to encourage keeping your earnings private (see attached). I have never felt strongly either way, and your response is the first time I've heard an opinion on the matter, so I'm feeling quite conflicted.

As a new freelancer, I have proposed and accepted contracts below my normal rate to establish good connections, positive reviews, and user experience. While there were hiccups in closing contracts and garnering feedback, these projects gave me confidence, connected me to wonderful clients, and allowed me to learn on my feet while navigating this very complicated platform. Now that I'm coming into 2022 with more momentum and confidence, I don't consider it a marketing tool to display the prices I charged while starting out. My portfolio and the tailored supplemental materials I submit with every proposal speak to my experience and support my current rates. If a client feels uncomfortable working with me because they can't see that I charged $150 for a logo design in May of 2020 they're missing out on working with an excellent designer and---at least for now and especially in light of the absolute nightmare I went through last week---I'm okay with that. 

This is a moot point as I'm likely moving back to the free membership this month anyway so we'll see how things go when everything becomes public... I really want to succeed here and I especially want to feel like upwork is a safe and supportive space where Community Gurus give respectful advice that is congruent with upwork user recommendations. 

Anway, thank you for the food for thought. I'm learning more every day!

[petra_r]

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Helen W wrote:

I don't consider it a marketing tool to display the prices I charged while starting out. My portfolio and the tailored supplemental materials I submit with every proposal speak to my experience and support my current rates.  

Clients you apply to see all your history anyway, so hiding your rates is at best pointless.

It also excludes you from certain searches.

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Helen W wrote:

When I started with upwork I read all of the information available to me and there is quite literally a section of the manual that appears to encourage keeping your earnings private (see attached). 

---

It doesn't really recommend it, it's an option Upwork never wanted people to use because according to their earlier research it led to less hires and earnings, but when some freelancers kept asking for it, they made it optional in the paid plan.

In NO way is it recommended as best practice. It really isn't best practice and not in a freelancer's interest.

[hweselcouch]

Everything you're saying is eye opening and makes complete sense, I just don't understand why the information given to freelancers does not make it abundantly clear that this is not best practice. As I pointed it out (regardless of whether or not this was the intention) the informational hierarchy of the page supports the notion to "Keep your earnings private." Upwork should reword this page and make keeping your earnigns private a footnote, not a heading. They're likely doing it to make the paid plan seem like it gives you more and better options...    which isn't right. 

[alekseevpavel78]

Martina P wrote:

Also, I'm totally against hiding earnings. It just looks like you have --- something to hide, when you really don't or at least shouldn't. Your earnings are a marketing tool. 

---

It works just well against potential scammers, etc. 

Do you like showing what is inside your wallet to everyone walking through? Pretty sure, you don't. But it still works just fine as a "marketing tool"  in the cases of the jobs you applied for. 

[martina_plaschka]

Upwork doesn't recommend to hide earnings, they just made that option available I guess some people wanted it.

What I am proposing is strategic thinking and making the most of the marketing tool your profile is. If you had received feedback on all your closed contracts you would have a JSS by now, for example, a real important factor to show to prospective clients. 

[tlbp]

Upwork is not a pretty place where everyone is reasonable or kind. Some clients are kind. Some are pragmatic. Many are mercenary. Others are straight up deceitful. 

• You feel "unsafe" because a client was mean. 
• You think the platform is to blame because you roared past a whole line of red flags.
• It's not your fault you have to work for less than your value. 
• Advice from people who know how to survive is unwelcomed and critiqued. 

These are victim statements. There are clients on Upwork who chew up victims by the hundreds. Learn to recognize them and not be their target. 

Honest advice doesn't always make us feel good. 

[hweselcouch]

Hi Tonya,

I had written a long reply to this but I deleted it because it's just not worth my time and energy. Whatever moved you to write such an agressive response is beyond me but speaks volumes about you and the types of people upwork will consider as a "Community Guru." I hope to see the world become a prettier, more reasonable, and much kinder place in 2022 and I will do my part to contribute. I hope at some point you grow to come to that understanding as well.

Happy New Year.

[martina_plaschka]

You can read everything as aggressive or an attack, but that approach really doesn't serve you well. More experienced freelancer maybe have developed a more realistic approach. They know how to spot an unreasonable client within seconds and have learned to decline these offers. I also hope the world to be a prettier place to be in 2022, but upwork isn't the place where I expect to find that, and that's perfectly fine. 

[researchediting]

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Helen W wrote:

...the types of people upwork will consider as a "Community Guru."

---

Upwork doesn't "consider" anyone a Community Guru. Forum ranks are strictly determined and automatically conferred by posting volume. Post enough, and you'll be a guru, too. It's got nothing to do with quality of advice or any explicit or implicit endorsement by Upwork. Many if not most of us hate the forum ranks.

You may find the leaderboards at the right useful. While there's no guarantee that popular posters give good information, the numbers of accepted solutions are a clue.

[tagrendy]

Hey, there is loopholes in Upwork when it comes to fixed projects. You can do everything right, the client can simply decide not to pay, and there is nothing "practically" that you can do about it. Even if 2nd milestone was funded, if she refused to release it - you wouldn't get paid. Contacting Upwork will only lead to them offering arbitration, which costs $300 - regardless of the outcome. So you would be at a net loss. If you don't use arbitrar, then money defaults to the client - will not matter who is wrong or right.

It is very frustrating loophole, one that clients abuse quite often, so be aware, cut your losses with this one and move on. 

Don't stress over what you cannot control. Client leaving a bad feedback - can't control that, client not paying you on a whim - for small projects like this one can't do anything about either.

Disengage, focus on better clients in the future. Try building long term relationships. My 2 cents. I know it's not a solution.

[researchediting]

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Helen W wrote:

....When I started with upwork I read all of the information available to me and there is quite literally a section of the manual that appears to encourage keeping your earnings private (see attached). I have never felt strongly either way, and your response is the first time I've heard an opinion on the matter, so I'm feeling quite conflicted.

Appearances can be deceiving. Upwork long refused to hide earnings. Their response to the clamor to be able to do so was always that their research showed that contractors with hidden earnings earned and were hired less than contractors that showed their earnings. Eventually they succumbed to demand from a vocal minority, and allowed hiding earnings, at a price. What they are "encouraging" here is not hiding earnings, but giving them money for a Plus membership.

As a new freelancer, I have proposed and accepted contracts below my normal rate to establish good connections, positive reviews, and user experience.

Seasoned and successful freelancers frequently warn against that strategy. What's done is done. The fix is to keep working, and push those lower-earning jobs off your front page.

While there were hiccups in closing contracts and garnering feedback, these projects gave me confidence, connected me to wonderful clients, and allowed me to learn on my feet while navigating this very complicated platform.

Not sure what you mean. Freelancers generally don't close contracts except under particular cirumstances. The best course is to  allow (or if needed, ask/remind once) clients to close contracts, at which point they must leave feedback. (I hope  and trust you are using garner in a passive sense; it is poor form, and potentially counterproductive, to go chasing after feedback.)

....

This is a moot point as I'm likely moving back to the free membership this month anyway so we'll see how things go when everything becomes public...
As mentioned above, Upwork's data suggests you may do better in the long run.
I really want to succeed here and I especially want to feel like upwork is a safe and supportive space where Community Gurus give respectful advice

OK

that is congruent with upwork user recommendations. 

That's a bit much to ask. Upwork's "recommendations" are often  not written from the point of view of working professional freelancers. (Their product and service promotional copy never is.)

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[edited to add: Sorry for rehashing points others have made. I'm still grappling with the new forum thread organization.]

[hweselcouch]

Hey Douglas,

Thanks for this and for your post above. In turning to community forums I (at the very least) expected neutral feedback but responders have been weirdly hostile. Good to know that the "community guru" designation is simply based on making noise otherwise I'd be even more disappointed.

You've laid out really good points and responses here that are well-written and have helped me to understand a lot of the intricacies that make upwork work (or not work...) and best of all you've done it kindly and honestly. I appreciate you taking the time!

[vitaliy-kuzmich]

Since you are new to freelance, you should have some lessons. I had similar experience on fixed price projects. There are clients that watching for a new freelancers to hire them to do fixed price job. When I was new to Odesk(upwork was Odesk before), I had exactly the same issue. Client hire me to do the job for 30$ but I spent 2 days to do the job! We are all learning from past experience, and my past experience tells me to avoid fixed price projects at all! And I recommend to you to do the same! Accept hourly tracked projects only!