Escrow cant protect freelancers

[d98d74a1]

I have ongoing clients on Upwork, but I must admit I'm quite disappointed with the outcome of this dispute. Throughout my years in Upwork, I've had no complaints even regarding deductions. However, this is the first time I've needed support, and unfortunately, I didnt receive the assistance I was hoping for. Even there is an Escrow, I am still unprotected.

[tlsanders]

That is true. Escrow is absolutely meaningless unless it's a high enough value job that it's worth going to arbitration. I wish Upwork were clearer about this.  Can you explain what you expected from Upwork and what led you believe you would get help with this issue? 

[d98d74a1]

This is a rush job that demands technical expertise, so the price is justified. However, upon spending sleepless nights and submitting my work, the client is demanding additional work which is beyond our contract. It happened twice so I believe those demands won't end and still, I'm not paid yet for the work I have done. Requested the client's options and resolutions to our issues but the client suddenly ended our contract and demanded a full refund in Escrow. Of course, I file a dispute. The client is no longer responding to my messages.

[ArjayM]

Hi Cindy,

We certainly understand how disappointing this experience is for you and apologize for the inconvenience. Unfortunately, we can't disclose any information or actions being taken on a user's account publicly. What we can do is provide a Mediation Specialist who will work with both parties to reach a mutual agreement. That said, several support tickets have been set up with your case. We highly suggest you continue coordinating with the team through a single ticket here so that they can assist you accordingly. 

Please check this announcement for you to be more acquainted with how dispute works. Thank you!

[tlsanders]

If you really wanted freelancers to be more acquainted with the fact that escrow provides exactly zero protection unless the job is large enough that it's worth paying for arbitration and the freelancer can afford to do so, Upwork woudl be much more transparent on this point, rather than consistently referring to "escrow protection." 

[berg_shari · Accepted solution]

You're not protected if you use their time clock, either, for hourly work. I found that out the hard way. They claimed I wasn't actively "clicking" enough during every minute I was logged in. When pressed for specifics, they couldn't tell me how many clicks each minute qualified you for protection. They just kept skirting the issue.

As a writer, I don't just type words on my screen. I also think about the words I need to type. I sometimes have to read a document and interpret it before I type anything. It's still work and I deserve to be paid for it. But that doesn't count with Upwork. If you're not actively keystroking every minute, you're not covered. 

There's a lot about the freelancer protections here that are disappointing if you ever need to use them. I've been on this platform for a long time and never realized until recently when I had an issue that you're screwed if there's ever a problem. 

[tlsanders]

I'm also a writer, and recognized from the beginning that there was no payment protection for me on hourly jobs. That's not great, but I can't really blame Upwork for the policy. If they paid out payment protection without proof of activity, all they would ever do would be pay out money on fake jobs set up to collect payment protection.

I don't like the way escrow is handled because Upwork consistently creates the false impression that freelancers are protected, but the requirements for hourly payment protection are clear and they're simply not workable for certain types of work. 

[wlyonsatl]

Tiffany, Cindy and Shari.

I also do a lot of writing for the Upwork projects I work on and have never had a problem with payment protection on hourly projects, as long as I follow the clear rules Upwork has set up. The main sticking point I see from many freelancers who post here re: hourly payment protection is the requirement for keystrokes during each 10-minute TimeTracker segment, but proper memos for each time segment is also sometimes an issue.

When I am using TimeTracker I find a reason to use my keyboard and mouse regularly - taking notes, etc. I can't say the exact number of keystrokes or mouse clicks required per 10-minute segment, but I'd guess it's less than 100. (You can test this by keeping track of the number you do and then when that 10-minute segment is past go to the project's time sheet and see how full the time bar is. If it's well over half full, I'd guess that time segment meets Upwork's requirements for payment protection.)

I usually use only one memo per work project, so whether I work for 10 minutes or two hours on an hourly project, I only use the one memo. My memos are descriptive, but rarely more than 6 - 8 words.

Hope this helps!

[tlsanders]

Yes, Will, that was exactly my point. Since following the clear rules would mean distorting my writing process into something less efficient, more frustrating, and likely yielding a worse result, I knew right away that payment protection wasn't available to me because I wasn't interested in prioritizing clicking over productivity and good results. 

[wlyonsatl]

A freelancer who wants to serve their clients and satisfy Upwork's payment protection requirements can do both. All Upwork requires is the freelancer must "Maintain adequate and fair activity levels." If I am working on the client's behalf and confirm that to TimeTracker via use of my keyboard and mouse clicks, I'm doing what's required by Upwork. 

Yes, it is possible to misuse Upwork's requirements in this respect. I don't - and no client among my 400 or so has ever complained that my TimeTracker-tracked work record was out of line with the quantity or quality of work they expected of me.

If you want to sacrifice your own income security without violating either the spirit or the letter of Upwork's rules, that's a very personal decision. 

To each his own.

[tlsanders]

You disagree that different freelancers have different optimal ways of working and turn out a better product when they use the systems that work for them instead of forcing awkward processes that slow them down and eliminate flow?

Perhaps you do. You do seem to believe that your way is the only way in all regards, so if you work well by clicking away constantly then it can't possibly be true that I produce better content by mapping things out on paper and marking up printed source materials. 

In any case, I don't care in the least about payment protection. I was freelancing before www, let alone Upwork. In the real world, no corporation steps in to provide me a safety net if I make bad decisions about the clients I work with. 

[wlyonsatl]

No, Tiffany, I don't think my way is the only way. I was replying to Shari, and included you in my response, because you said, "there was no payment protection for me on hourly jobs" and "the requirements for hourly payment protection are clear and they're simply not workable for certain types of work." j

Yes, some freelancers might have to find a way to conform with Upwork's requirements for hourly protection. I am assuming most are smart enough to find a way.

If you share with the board your way of working and final work product maybe someone can help you figure out a way to better comply with Upwork's requirements for hourly payment protection. I hate to see any freelancer's hard work go unprotected when protection is available by following a few simple steps.

Now, have the final post if you must. 

[d98d74a1]

The bottom line is that when we need assistance and support, we can't always rely on the platform because it has lapses in its rules that clients can use to abuse freelancers. Honestly, I feel mistreated by the client, and it seems apparent to me that Upwork may not provide the support we need in such situations. Now, their proposed resolution is arbitration, which would involve a substantial cost on my end.

[tlsanders]

As I said, I'm not at all concerned about payment protection. I've been freelancing for 34 years and the vast majority of my work is out in the real world without a net. I've only ever not been paid once in all that time, and it was when I declined payment because I had learned something about the client that made me not want them to use my work. 

That said, if there is some genius here who has a way of using the time tracker without touching or being near your computer, I'm certainly interested in hearing it. 

[the-right-writer]

Some of us do not work by clicking and moving the mouse. It simply does not work for many jobs. I don't know why so many insist hourly is the only way to go.

Not only do I not work in a click and mouse move way, I am not a freelancer to have some client checking in on me as I work. If you hire me, you hire an experienced, quality freelancer, not someone you are going to have to check on and watch how often you move a mouse. That is how you treat employees. If I am going to have a constant supervisor, and you make the rules, then I want my employer taxes paid and all those things I pay, and a real employer would.

If people want to use hourly, that's their choice. But when I see real freelancers losing a lot of money, why would I even want to consider it? I have never used hourly here or anywhere else, nor will I. If Upwork made hourly mandatory, I would leave permanently. I have never been scammed on this platform, the other platforms, the journals, the medical professionals, the scientists, and all my other clients - none of them have cheated me, scammed me, or given me a bad review.

Fixed price jobs are not evil, and from talking to numerous freelancers, more are losing money with the tracker than fixed-price. If you follow the rules with fixed price, you get paid with no nonsense about how many times you used the keyboard or mouse. What a ridiculous way to assess work.

[wlyonsatl]

Jeanne,

I don't disagree with you.

Different project types can best use either fixed price or hourly contract structures.

You say you would stop using Upwork if only hourly contracts were available. I would do the same if only fixed price projects were allowed. That doesnt mean one of us must be wrong or misinformed about what is "best" for us.

But I do believe the general trend of complaints about non-payment to freelancers involved unpaid-but-apparently-escrowed fixed price projects and hourly contracts in which the freelancer has not ticked all the boxes for hourly payment protection.

I do not expect to ever do a fixed price project unless Upwork figures out a way to make "escrowed" funding actually be in escrow. I have had no major instances of non-payment under hourly contracts - and that's over 400+ projects involving what I would guess to be about 300 - 350 different clients.

To each his/her own. Upwork allows for both and does neither approach perfectly. Considering the massive losses Upwork experiences due to fraud (the extent of which may be well above the publicly reported $6 million or so every three months) I'm sure Upwork would like nothing more than to reduce the fraud-related losses it and freelancers regularly experience.

And I should point out that my use of hourly contracts is better for my clients. My average billable hours on jobs is probably in the range of 15 - 18 but can range up to 60. I never know ahead of time a reasonable tight range of eventual billable hours for each new project, but if I were forced to guess because only fixed price payment structures were available, I'd always price my services at the higher end of my best guess range of actual work hours required. I don't have any interest in over-charging my clients, but I certainly wouldn't offer clients low-ball fixed price proposals. Charging for the exact work time I spend on each job is the fairest approach for both me and my clients.

[the-right-writer]

The problem is, I can't recommend hourly to freelancers, without a lot of explanation, cautions, and the facts.

It wasn't always this bad. So many are losing money off the mouse and keyboard movements, Upwork must fix it. Until they do, I can't recommend hourly.

[tlsanders]

But I do believe the general trend of complaints about non-payment to freelancers involved unpaid-but-apparently-escrowed fixed price projects and hourly contracts in which the freelancer has not ticked all the boxes for hourly payment protection.

It seems that more and more over the past several months, freelancers are coming here and saying they've been denied payment protection even though they HAVE ticked all the boxes. Part of it is the click-tracking thing, but at least one said he was told his memos were insufficient, although they conformed to what a moderator had previously said would be sufficient. And a few seem to have been offered no explanation at all. This seems to me to be a significant shift versus the first several years I used the site.

[celgins]

I agree 100 percent.

I have completed only a few jobs on Upwork and most were fixed price. I can't remember how I completed the three or four hourly jobs, but I didn't use Upwork's tracker, and I have never been scammed on this site. I remember downloading and installing the tracker years ago, but never used it, and it's probably because I don't agree with the idea of using a tracker.

I absolutely refuse to work an hourly job where a client can track mouse clicks and scrolling, and where screen captures are required. I might as well be employed, and at this point in my career, I wouldn't take a job where an employer wanted to track me so closely.

Like many others here, I write a lot (outside of Upwork) and that often includes a vast amount of research, solution development, conversations with subject matter experts, and 20 other things that can't be tracked accurately by a piece of software. The tracker would get in my way and I don't have time to babysit a piece of software.

I'm sure the time tracker works great for some freelancers, but I will not use it. If someone wants to hire me to deliver a product/service, I will use my experience to accurately calculate the time required to complete the task. Then, I will give my client a fixed term (e.g., 80 hours at $120/hour). I've never had a client refuse a fixed fee or request an hourly contract.

[wlyonsatl]

See Clark. Upwork allows for every smart freelancer to find a way to be fair to clients and themselves.

But both fixed price and hourly have certain requirements of both client and freelancer that must be fulfilled before freelancers can expect to be paid by their clients. Based on the comments we regularly see on this message board, rookie freelancers who don't take the time to understand how Upwork works can be scammed under either payment structure. A fair few clients have the same problem, based on various messages over on the Clients message board.

[celgins]

Yes... I definitely understand.

I think the fact that I was freelancing and dealing with clients and payments for more than a decade before using elance/Upwork is why fixed-price payments are not an issue for me. Like you said, a lot of rookies who know next to nothing about freelancing, and even less about Upwork, come here and attempt to get paid, and quickly become scam victims.

[tlsanders]

I like fixed price, but it provides no protection at all for freelancers who work on small jobs. 

[the-right-writer]

If you have a contract, do, and submit the work, you get paid unless there is a dispute.

I have never been scammed, and never lost money.

[berg_shari]

I've never had a client complain. What I've had is Upwork automatically issue a refund to clients if there is any issue with their account status before trying to work it out with the client, which negatively affects me every time. One of my most recent issues was a long-term client was in the process of changing his credit card on file here. Upwork considered that a reason to "pause" our contract and they issued him a refund. Then they started the run-around about me not qualifying for hourly protection when I raised an issue with them refusing the client (the client didn't authorize or know anything about it and didn't want the refund). It created a headache for the client because to return the money to me, he had to issue me a "bonus" in the amount Upwork had refunded to him. 

[wlyonsatl]

This is what happens with an algorithm-driven system.

Maybe implementing artificial intelligence will actual add some intelligence to the same system.

[the-right-writer]

Yes, Upwork did the same to me, twice. Both times, the client didn't want to end the contract. I have older jobs open, waiting for the client as requested, so I have no idea why they thought these jobs must close immediately.

[berg_shari]

We shouldn't have to guess the number of keystrokes that qualify us for protection. Upwork should clearly disclose that information. The fact they don't tells me they can set whatever arbitrary guideline they want at the time and then be vague about how they made their determination. 

The memos weren't the issue for me. I give very detailed memos before starting a job. 

[berg_shari]

But that's what the screen shots are supposed to be for, to back up any progress you've made. It's just not a good system all the way around and you're right. There truly is no real protection here for freelancers. 

[d98d74a1]

I agree; our situation is quite challenging. Over the years, I believed Upwork was the best platform for freelancers like us. However, based on my recent experiences, my confidence in this platform has diminished.