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fourohfourfilms
Community Member

Frustrated with Upwork and how they are handling a disput

So let me start by saying I have been on upwork for 5+ years, have 94% JSS, have a Top Rated PLUS badge, and have made $300k+ with over 80+ completed contracts, the most of which have been over the last 2 years. I have brought a lot of clients to upwork, and have reffered a lot of artist friends to freelance on the dervice.

 

I recently had a client, which started out great, paid and released a deposit as a milestone for a large NFT project. My role was to create the 3D artworks.
Everything was going good, saying they loved everything I supplied, making small tweaks and revisions where needed. They agreed and signed off on a lot of aspects, but would go back and forth with different revisions and additions that were previously ok'd. They wanted to "try" different looks and things, even though they said they loved what was made and said it was good. The project was suppose to be completed within a month. 3 months later, I was still working on revisions and additions/ tweaks that were previously "ok'd". I raised my concerns multiple times, being told multiple times over the space of months "its done, we just want this one small things changed". The client would say its perfect, but his "partner" (never mentioned at the beginning) wanted changes.

I suggested we go our different ways, as I was unable to continue on the project as the cleint could not come to a final decision, and perhaps might be suited to another artist. The client, while not at first (still wanted me to work on the project because they said they loved my work) agreed after discuss, and said I could pay them back the full released milestone/ deposit and keep the work I did as my own. I said I did not want to do that, as I had no use or want for the work.
They filed a dispute for the milestone - in UpWork mediation they used many defamatory terms toward me, such as "fraudulent" and should be "banned", "suspended" or "punished" from the service. They also made a lot of lies in their statement, and even though I offered to pay them back a portion of the payment, they did not want a portion. The mediation was closed after no agreement from both parties was made, UpWork Mediation suggested binding arbitration by April 7. 
This time time passed, with no notice, but then I recieved a notice from upwork that the client had their bank issue a chargeback for the full amount to upwork.

While upwork are disputing the chargeback (say this can take up to 90 days) - they have restricted my account from any withdrawals, and when another client released a milestone for a different project, Upwork took that money and sent it directly to previous client! How is this possible? When I asked upwork customer support, they said my account is restricted until I pay the previous client back. And money I earn will be used to pay the previous client back. Why am I expected to work for 3 months and not be paid anything for my work? Why is this client ( 1.85stars of 16 reviews) allowed to be paid back in full? 
I have extremely low hopes of recovering anything from the dispute of the bank's chargeback, as even customer support stated, "is at the bank's desrection".
The client found a loophole. Why I am charged and punished why the client is still actively using the service?
I do not understand. This has left a seriously bitter taste in my mouth and am considering leaving upwork.

-Ken

101 REPLIES 101
tjmisny
Community Member

Hi Ken - Expert Vetted freelancer with over $220k in earnings here.  You are 100% right in this situation.  Clients cannot keep asking for unlimited revisions after approving work, especially in animation.  You are not permanently on call for a client.  

 

Upwork: Get your act together and support Ken, who is obviously in the right here.  Disorganized, unrespectful, unprofessional clients are going to be the downfall of this site!

 

 

Thank you - I am really upset and disgusted by this. I have made a lot of money for upwork, and brought a lot of clients and freelancers to the platform over the years.

Hey Ken, I just read the feedback this client left for you and it's sickening.  What an absolute jerk.  This person should be kicked off of Upwork.  Your work also looks excellent!  Next time I have a project in need of CG work I will reach out to you, beacause you look like a reliable, skilled artist!  

petra_r
Community Member


Thomas J M wrote: What an absolute jerk.  This person should be kicked off of Upwork.

The client is already suspended.

The clients is already suspended never makes the freelancers happy. The freelancer would be happy when they get back their money.

What initiative upwork have taken on this? 

I am also been chargeback of $1300 and have been waiting what finally upwork says to me 

I appreciate the support.
It looks like client has been removed from upwork, and thanks about the work, I appreciate it.

 

petra_r
Community Member

The misunderstanding is that Upwork "gave the client their money back".

Upwork did no such thing.


When a chargeback is issued by a bank, it's not in form of "Please would you give back this money" - It's a "We have removed this money from your account". In other words, the money is gone the second the bank does the chargeback.

 

Upwork can try to dispute it with the client's bank, whether they'll be successful or not remains to be seen, but it would appear that with the larger chargebacks, they have been more successful so don't give up hope.

 

The client's Upwork account *is* suspended. The fact that they have (old!!) open jobs doesn't mean they are active, those job posts are from before the chargeback. A chargeback always leads to the client being suspended.

 

 

 

 

Thank you Petra.

d_samuel_udokpok
Community Member

Awful experience Ken. After my experience with a client last year, I only believe Upwork doesn't protect freelancers. They protect clients more than they protect freelancers. I understand that they're trying to keep the business going but there are a few clients that are really annoying. 

 

Upwork needs to come up with some form of protection for freelancers. If you're going into disputes with a client, rest assured you'll never win which is not a good experience.

I fully agree with this David.  I think as freelancers we have to be very careful who we choose to work with.  Maybe Upwork will fix this issue if freelancers refuse to take on jobs from clients with less than excellent ratings.  

Upwork has essentially stated it is not their purpose to help or protect freelancers. By having a TOS, Upwork believes it absolves itself from any responsibility. That is what all TOS are: we can do this, and you can't hold us accountable.

There are a couple of freelancers I know who have won disputes. However, the offenses by the client were so over the top they were crimes. What happened with Ken is also a crime. This type of theft/fraud/deception is happening in other areas of the net, from freelancer platforms to eBay to Etsy. People will purchase an item or service and then try to keep the item or work and get money back, too. If the freelancer or seller does not agree, then they go to the business with outrageous demands. Depending on the business, you may receive lip service or some assistance. If the thieves still can't get the money, they cry to the credit card companies that they have been robbed. It is an automatic practice to immediately put a lock on all money until the dispute is settled. No matter how innocent - it doesn't matter. Once that dispute is claimed, you will not have access to your money, and worse, the credit card company holds any money up to the disputed amount so they can return it to the holder. Disputes are supposed to be determined in 30 days, but they can take longer. So freelancers need to remember that we are being paid by a credit card from people we have never met. Any time we receive payment through Upwork or any business through a credit card, there is the potential for the buyer to steal. That being said, it is still relatively rare. I have never encountered this type of fraud, and most never will.
Still, it is something to consider and another reason to build in milestones to show a pattern of accepted work.


David S wrote: If you're going into disputes with a client, rest assured you'll never win which is not a good experience.

This is complete nonsense.

Also, Ken's issue has nothing to do with a dispute, it's a chargeback.

I don't know why what I said is complete nonsense. I'm not the only one who has complained about how disputes are handled by Upwork Freelancers vs clients. So why is absolute nonsense?


David S wrote:

I don't know why what I said is complete nonsense.


Because it is simply untrue.

Then all the freelancers complaining about their experience during disputes are lying then. Good luck with that


David S wrote:

Then all the freelancers complaining about their experience during disputes are lying then. Good luck with that


I don't think they are lying. They don't know what they are doing and what is going on, so they think the mediator is siding with the client, which is not true. The way to deal with mediation is not to fight or defend yourself at all. It's useless because mediators don't side with anyone. So they get upset and think Upwork is siding with the client because the mediator will always ask what you will take as a payment and then see if you will work more as a compromise, to which you should always say no.  The only thing it's for is to come to an agreement so that the contract doesn't go to arbitration.


David S wrote:

Then all the freelancers complaining about their experience during disputes are lying then.


You claimed that no freelancer can ever win a dispute. That is untrue. For starters, neither clients nor freelancers ever "win" disputes unless the other party concedes. Upwork does not make a decision in the case of a dispute. They only make non-binding suggestions. If no mutually agreeable solution can be found, the next step would be arbitration, which tends to go in favour of the freelancer.

 

ericaandrews
Community Member

That's completely insane, man.   Sorry to hear that.

 

This is why I have always believed the freelancer "payment protection" promise was a joke....because I have heard way too many stories of freelancers doing the work, following the rules, and when the client acts up and "takes the money and run", UW just "shrugs" and says "too bad".  Personally, I find it completely inappropriate that UW would was interfere with a completely unrelated contract to try to 'resolve' issues on another country - by "intercepting" payments and "re-routing" them.  It's also disturbing that no matter how long ago a milestone was released and paid, a client can 'demand' the money back at a later date with no time  limits, filing "disputes" months later.   Personally, I don't bother with any client with less than 4 star total reviews or ones that don't have enough reviews to have 'stars'. I think if client has more than 5 reviews and has anything less than a total 3-star, their account should be suspended or closed by Upwork as an unfit client.


CJ A wrote:

That's completely insane, man.   Sorry to hear that.

 

This is why I have always believed the freelancer "payment protection" promise was a joke....because I have heard way too many stories of freelancers doing the work, following the rules, and when the client acts up and "takes the money and run", UW just "shrugs" and says "too bad".  Personally, I find it completely inappropriate that UW would was interfere with a completely unrelated contract to try to 'resolve' issues on another country - by "intercepting" payments and "re-routing" them.  It's also disturbing that no matter how long ago a milestone was released and paid, a client can 'demand' the money back at a later date with no time  limits, filing "disputes" months later.   Personally, I don't bother with any client with less than 4 star total reviews or ones that don't have enough reviews to have 'stars'. I think if client has more than 5 reviews and has anything less than a total 3-star, their account should be suspended or closed by Upwork as an unfit client.


That is not the case. A client can only file a dispute within 30 days of the last payment. That is why we sometimes have clients complain in the forum about not being ablee to recoup their money when they've let too much time elapse after payment was made.

 

A chargeback, which the OP suffered, is different from a dispute. The time limit on that is set by the bank that issued the client's credit card. I think six months is typical but it varies. When the client issues a chargeback, several things happen. The bank takes the money from UW. UW permanently suspends the client from further activity on the platform. UW appeals the chargeback--how much effort they invest is unknown but conventional wisdom says it's extremely difficult to win such an appeal. UW claws back the money from the FL. It sucks but it's the client's fault, not UW's. There is no way for UW to predict when a chargeback is likely. Any of us could encounter this bad luck--on this platform or another or when working with clients directly.

 

Unfortunately, even though upwork admitted that the client has indeed gone against UW's terms of service by doing a charge back, the client is still very much active on upwork, with 9 jobs currently in progress and another 8 jobs currently advertised.


Upwork with double standards. The client's work history is really awful. I don't think I'll be able to work for any client that pays freelancers $3/hr. Those clients usually cause a lot of trouble. They'll pay you a penny and expect you to work the whole heaven for them. In your case Ken, the client decided to pay you higher but as usual, she decided to cause you a lot of trouble. 


Ken W wrote: the client is still very much active on upwork,

The client is suspended. Not "very much active" at all.

 


with 9 jobs currently in progress and another 8 jobs currently advertised.

No. The contracts are suspended and the job posts are not "currently advertised" - They are all old posts that were abandoned. If you try to apply, you get a warning that the jobs are no longer available.

 

no longer available.png




The client is suspended. Not "very much active" at all.




Jobs that the client has hired people closed overtime and often show 'No longer Available.'  Client hasn't been suspended


David S wrote:



Jobs that the client has hired people closed overtime and often show 'No longer Available.'  Client hasn't been suspended


Yes, he has been suspended. Clients who file a chargeback are always, ALWAYS suspended.

That is why the open (!!) job posts (!!) can't be applied to. Because open (!!) job posts from suspended (!!) clients show as open, but can't be applied to.

Yes, he has been suspended. Clients who file a chargeback are always suspended.

That is why the open job posts can't be applied to. Because open job posts from suspended clients show as open, but can't be applied to.

 

The better answer, no?

This makes sense in cases where the money is still sitting in the freelancer's account, 'waiting' to be taken when a chargeback occurs. It doesn't make sense that Upwork still ASSISTS with these 'chargeback' efforts AFTER a freelancer has taken the money out of their account - often leaving the freelancer with a 'negative' balance (i.e, debt).   It simply doesn't make sense that the client does something wrong, the freelancer did everything they were supposed to do, but Upwork punishes the freelancer by taking their money or putting them in debt.  Either way, Upwork loses no money and assumes no 'risk'

 

Upwork makes more than enough revenue to cover the freelancer when these things happen, but they should be doing MORE to keep the crooks off the site to begin with, like requiring full photo ID checks, business records, etc before clients can begin 'posting' jobs they never intend to pay for.  Often the SAME clients do this over and over again under different accounts, repeatedly, BECAUSE Upwork doesn't do any type of identity verification for the clients: If they started making 'clients' show a Driver's license, passport, etc before 'posting' anything, much of this would stop, because a client that gets 'banned' wouldn't be able to come back the very next day under a brand new UW account he/she just created, and Upwork would also have something to hand over to the POLICE to help get these people locked up when they steal from freelancers.  If all UW is requiring for clients is an email address that could be made up/fake/temporary and a credit card number, which could be stolen, that isn't much information to send to the police, FBI, etc. "Suspending" accounts for fraudulent clients is great, but handcuffs, orange jump suits, and lengthy jail sentences for clients that steal are even better remedies  LOL

 

Either there is a 'payment guarantee' or there isn't.  If there's a 'payment guaranteed except when the client turns out to be a crook', well, that isn't much of a 'guarantee' at all, because there are lots of crooks in this world and plenty of them on Upwork.  A 'charge back' from a bank is a REQUEST to refund money based on the so-called client claiming a 'fraudulent' charge on their card when they aren't happy with the freelancer's work or just don't want to pay.  Upwork is ultimately the entity that DECIDES to actually hand that money back over to the bank. They could also REFUSE and NOT send the money back because both the client and the freelancer signed an agreement in their contracts that they would resolve disputes ON upwork, not by whining to their banks about false allegations of 'fraud' because they don't want to pay for work performed.  If the client is going OUTSIDE the system specified in the contract to try to resolve the dispute, they are violating their contract with Upwork.  Instead of simply handing money over everytime a bank demands it, Upwork needs to be working with the FBI (or appropriate law enforcement in the client's country) to get these clients arrested for fraud.  However, if they are just going to 'hand money away' everytime somebody files a false fraud allegation with their bank, then Upwork should at least provide the FULL contract information to the freelancer in case they wish to SUE or Press criminal charges - especially if both the freelancer and the client are in the same country.  If the client is being allowed to 'take' the 'dispute' OFF upwork, the freelancer should be allowed to as well. Many people don't realize that making false claims of being a 'fraud victim' to initiate a 'chargeback' as a quick way to get a 'refund' when you don't want to pay for goods or services is actually illegal, and a felony in many states.   Either way, they shouldn't be advertising that payment is 'guaranteed' when it really isn't.  Most of the instances of freelancers NOT getting paid are from scam artists and crooks running 'chargeback' schemes and deliberately putting in fake credit cards, so if 'protection' is not available in the most common cases, it's not really 'protection' at all.

Totally agree - why are clients under 3 stars for example even able to continue to post jobs?  **Edited for Community Guidelines**... and remember, without freelancers, Upwork would be a worthless company.  We provide the value to Upwork, not the 3 star and below clients!

Thanks for the support.
What troubles me the most is not what the client is doing/ done, but how upwork is handling this situation. The client is stil active on upwork, while im punished and charged randomly to pay them back in full despite all the work I committed (months worth), even though upwork has admitted they went against UW terms of service. This isnt a small amount of money either.   

It's incredibly frustrating.  It should be obvious to Upwork that YOU are more valuable to the site than this **Edited for Community Guidelines** client.  You are bringing more money to the table and have the reputation to prove it.  

Yes, it is logical for a business to take care of the cogs in their money wheels, but hardly the first business to make that mistake. For the want of a cog, the machine was broke. Freelancers need to be as alert online as you would in real life.


CJ A wrote:

Personally, I find it completely inappropriate that UW would was interfere with a completely unrelated contract to try to 'resolve' issues on another country - by "intercepting" payments and "re-routing" them.


What in the world are you talking about?

The client filed a chargeback, which means the money was taken back by the bank, putting the OP's Upwork account in the red by the sum charged back.

 


  It's also disturbing that no matter how long ago a milestone was released and paid, a client can 'demand' the money back at a later date with no time  limits, filing "disputes" months later.

Again, whatever do you mean? It is not possible for a client to file a dispute months after the last payment.

 


I think if client has more than 5 reviews and has anything less than a total 3-star, their account should be suspended or closed by Upwork as an unfit client.

That client's star rating was way above that until the contract with Ken. The star ratings are fully Dollar weighed, and the reason why their star rating is now so low is because the contract with Ken was of such a high $-value-

And anyway, the client *IS* suspended.

kochubei_valeria
Community Member

Hi Ken,

 

I understand your frustration. Unfortunately, we won't be able to discuss details of a specific case here in the Community, so I encourage you to refer to the support ticket you have with our team as well as the section 6.3 of the User Agreement for more information. We've also followed up with the team handling your case. 

~ Valeria
Upwork

Thanks for the message - however, UW, while fowoing the standard protocol (which is pretty hopeless), is not much prepared to do much else.

lysis10
Community Member

You should use your TR perk to have that feedback removed.

 

Also, the client isn't active if they filed a chargeback. They are suspended when this happens.

He says in a later post that are still active and have not been suspended.


Peter G wrote:

He says in a later post that are still active and have not been suspended.


I saw that and he's wrong, just like most freelancers are about that whole process. A chargeback is against the ToS and the client is suspended when it happens.

So he's mistaken when he says that the client has "9 jobs currently in progress and another 8 jobs currently advertised?" I mean, either the client does or they don't. Not knowing the client, I can't check, but I don't think he would be lying about it.


Peter G wrote:

So he's mistaken when he says that the client has "9 jobs currently in progress and another 8 jobs currently advertised?" I mean, either the client does or they don't. Not knowing the client, I can't check, but I don't think he would be lying about it.


Well they don't just delete all the jobs that the dude currently has opened. lol Those contract are suspended too. Filing a chargeback is against everyone's ToS on the entire planet, including Upwork's. 

 

I'm not saying he's lying. I'm saying he's mistaken. What do you think happens to all the contracts currently open? They don't just disappear. They are still there and those freelancers will get notified that the client is suspended. Just because a client is suspended also doesn't mean they can't log in, so seeing them online doesn't mean anything either.

 

Very rarely do I see any freelancer get the whole mediation/arbitration/chargeback thing right. They usually get a lot of things wrong.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I just don't know how this works. It seems that if the client is suspended, at least the jobs that don't have active contracts would be removed, and the client wouldn't be able to post more, right? If not, then what does suspended mean? And so if the freelancers who do have active contracts with them are notified, does that mean they should be very worried about ever getting any money from them?

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