Frustrated with Upwork and how they are handl... - Page 2

fourohfourfilms · ‎04-26-2022

So let me start by saying I have been on upwork for 5+ years, have 94% JSS, have a Top Rated PLUS badge, and have made $300k+ with over 80+ completed contracts, the most of which have been over the last 2 years. I have brought a lot of clients to upwork, and have reffered a lot of artist friends to freelance on the dervice.

I recently had a client, which started out great, paid and released a deposit as a milestone for a large NFT project. My role was to create the 3D artworks.
Everything was going good, saying they loved everything I supplied, making small tweaks and revisions where needed. They agreed and signed off on a lot of aspects, but would go back and forth with different revisions and additions that were previously ok'd. They wanted to "try" different looks and things, even though they said they loved what was made and said it was good. The project was suppose to be completed within a month. 3 months later, I was still working on revisions and additions/ tweaks that were previously "ok'd". I raised my concerns multiple times, being told multiple times over the space of months "its done, we just want this one small things changed". The client would say its perfect, but his "partner" (never mentioned at the beginning) wanted changes.

I suggested we go our different ways, as I was unable to continue on the project as the cleint could not come to a final decision, and perhaps might be suited to another artist. The client, while not at first (still wanted me to work on the project because they said they loved my work) agreed after discuss, and said I could pay them back the full released milestone/ deposit and keep the work I did as my own. I said I did not want to do that, as I had no use or want for the work.
They filed a dispute for the milestone - in UpWork mediation they used many defamatory terms toward me, such as "fraudulent" and should be "banned", "suspended" or "punished" from the service. They also made a lot of lies in their statement, and even though I offered to pay them back a portion of the payment, they did not want a portion. The mediation was closed after no agreement from both parties was made, UpWork Mediation suggested binding arbitration by April 7.
This time time passed, with no notice, but then I recieved a notice from upwork that the client had their bank issue a chargeback for the full amount to upwork.

While upwork are disputing the chargeback (say this can take up to 90 days) - they have restricted my account from any withdrawals, and when another client released a milestone for a different project, Upwork took that money and sent it directly to previous client! How is this possible? When I asked upwork customer support, they said my account is restricted until I pay the previous client back. And money I earn will be used to pay the previous client back. Why am I expected to work for 3 months and not be paid anything for my work? Why is this client ( 1.85stars of 16 reviews) allowed to be paid back in full?
I have extremely low hopes of recovering anything from the dispute of the bank's chargeback, as even customer support stated, "is at the bank's desrection".
The client found a loophole. Why I am charged and punished why the client is still actively using the service?
I do not understand. This has left a seriously bitter taste in my mouth and am considering leaving upwork.

-Ken

feed_my_eyes · ‎05-01-2022

Peter G wrote:
I'm not disagreeing with you, I just don't know how this works. It seems that if the client is suspended, at least the jobs that don't have active contracts would be removed, and the client wouldn't be able to post more, right?

Nobody can apply to the old jobs that the client posted - as shown in Petra's screen cap - and the client can't post any more jobs.

Peter G wrote:
And so if the freelancers who do have active contracts with them are notified, does that mean they should be very worried about ever getting any money from them?

If they were hourly and tracked properly, they'll get paid, or if the money was in escrow, they'll get it unless the client tries to do a chargeback with them, too.

pgiambalvo · ‎05-02-2022

That's what I was saying. Upwork will pay them for the protected hourly if they used it perfectly, not the client. And there is no guarantee they will get the money that was in escow because the client can always do a chargeback if they want.

pgiambalvo · ‎04-30-2022

But still, bottom line, would you agree that if a client doesn't want to pay, there is no way a freelancer can make them, or make Upwork make them pay? Payment protection, Upwork pays. Escrow, client can get a chargeback. I think a big misunderstand many freelancers have is that if Upwork looks into such situations and sees the freelancer did in fact deliver what they were supposed to, Upwork will then charge the client's card and pay the freelancer. Of course, that is not the way it works.

gilbert-phyllis · ‎05-01-2022

Peter G wrote:
But still, bottom line, would you agree that if a client doesn't want to pay, there is no way a freelancer can make them, or make Upwork make them pay? Payment protection, Upwork pays. Escrow, client can get a chargeback. I think a big misunderstand many freelancers have is that if Upwork looks into such situations and sees the freelancer did in fact deliver what they were supposed to, Upwork will then charge the client's card and pay the freelancer. Of course, that is not the way it works.

The only way a FL would think that is if they choose not to inform themselves about the terms of use of this platform and instead, assume it will work to their advantage in any situation.

fourohfourfilms · ‎05-01-2022

They still have open job postings that people can apply to.

petra_r · ‎05-01-2022

Ken W wrote:
They still have open job postings that people can apply to.

Categorically NOT.

The job posts are old, abandoned and CAN NOT be applied to. The client is suspended.

This is what happens when you try to apply.

fourohfourfilms · ‎05-01-2022

Ah, Thanks.

petra_r · ‎05-01-2022

Peter G wrote:
Not knowing the client, I can't check

You could check it easily enough if you could be bothered.

The client is suspended, their contracts are suspended, their job posts can't be applied to.

Yes, I did check.

the-right-writer · ‎04-30-2022

Hi Ken,

I'm sorry this has happened to you. I can certainly understand your discouragement, anger, disgust, and all the other emotions you feel. In trying to find something positive to say, as top-rated, you will be able to remove the client's nasty feedback. The thieves do that to prove to Upwork/credit card company bank that you are a horrible person who cheated them. Please know that they woud say this about anyone, and it has nothing to do with your skills. It is part of the scam.

There are a few telling items just looking at the job. Why did they pay you if you were doing crap work? Why didn't they end the contract? Because it was fine as long as they could use you as a free employee. Only when you rightly stood up for yourself did a problem arise.

In the feedback, they admit to wanting multiple changes. With a professional freelancer such as yourself, you don't maintain that position and produce the quality of work you have if you are someone who needs to make numerous changes. I hope you fight this as much as you can. You have the right to submit evidence to the credit card company bank. Send them copies of every relevant document, conversation, message, or work. I cannot predict what your chances are, but it is worth a try.

fourohfourfilms · ‎05-01-2022

Hi, thanks for your reply and support.
You mention that as top rated, I can remove clients feedback - how can I do this? This is the first I have heard of this.

You get my frustration. 3 months (with a happy client at this point) I worked, and now I am being charged back the project in full.

the-right-writer · ‎05-02-2022

Here is the link that explains how to remove feedback -

https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/219801228-Feedback-Removal

gilbert-phyllis · ‎05-01-2022

Jeanne H wrote:
Hi Ken,

I'm sorry this has happened to you. I can certainly understand your discouragement, anger, disgust, and all the other emotions you feel. In trying to find something positive to say, as top-rated, you will be able to remove the client's nasty feedback. The thieves do that to prove to Upwork/credit card company bank that you are a horrible person who cheated them. Please know that they woud say this about anyone, and it has nothing to do with your skills. It is part of the scam.

There are a few telling items just looking at the job. Why did they pay you if you were doing crap work? Why didn't they end the contract? Because it was fine as long as they could use you as a free employee. Only when you rightly stood up for yourself did a problem arise.

In the feedback, they admit to wanting multiple changes. With a professional freelancer such as yourself, you don't maintain that position and produce the quality of work you have if you are someone who needs to make numerous changes. I hope you fight this as much as you can. You have the right to submit evidence to the credit card company bank. Send them copies of every relevant document, conversation, message, or work. I cannot predict what your chances are, but it is worth a try.

Interestingly, I have a very different read on the whole situation. Evidently the OP persuaded the client to pay up front and during the course of the project they became dissatisfied with each other. Three months is a pretty long time to keep going, given clear signs there is a mismatch re. expectations. Most successful FLs I know (maybe all) would call time out long before that and either renegotiate terms or extricate themselves. Not to do so is mismanagement of a project and a client and it can obviously be quite costly--especially if the FL has managed to secure payment in advance. (The problem with a hefty advance payment is that it raises the emotional stakes right off the bat. Any client who forks over ten grand up front is going to have very high expectations of delight with the end result.)

All UW veterans know (or should), on a fixed-price project the client is paying for the deliverable regardless of how much time and effort the FL invests. It's essential to specify at the beginning how and when the deliverable will be considered finished. Clear parameters around revisions ensure both parties know where they stand and what they are and are not entitled to. Then, if things start to go sideways, it's easier to negotiate partial payment and part ways without open acrimony.

In any case, there are two sides to every story. For the client's part we only have the visible feedback to go on but it certainly is not the first time (or even the second) a client of this OP has been seriously disappointed. Any of us can misjudge a prospect and wind up entangled with a flaky client, have something blow up in our face all of a sudden. But this wasn't a sudden thing, it took three months for the client to get so fed up they were willing to abandon the platform altogether. I disagree with your characterization of these clients as thieves.

petra_r · ‎05-01-2022

I agree with you to a point, Phyllis, but the fact remains that the client could and should have used the official dispute process and gone to arbitration to (try and) get their money back if they were so convinced that they are right.

Filing a chargeback was the wrong way to resolve it, is against the terms of service and a **Edited for Community Guidelines** thing to do.

What puzzles me is that the OP's anger is directed not at the client who did this, but at Upwork who could have done absolutely nothing to prevent the chargeback. he actually even says so.

gilbert-phyllis · ‎05-01-2022

I'm not condoning the client's choice to file a chargeback. I just don't find it surprising, given what I understand about how the situation unfolded. **bleep**ty, yes, but not altogether unforeseeable.

And yes, I continue to be perplexed by people who blame UW for chargebacks. Of all the things that could be managed more strategically and effectively, that is one that UW can do absolutely nothing to forestall or repair.

fourohfourfilms · ‎05-01-2022

Hi Phyliss - Thanks for the reply.
Work for 3+ months for a client, who appears to be more than happy the entire time, drag the project out byt forever changing the goalposts, only to file a chargeback (after dispute didnt rule in their favor) and be billed $12k+, you might understand some of the frustration. Any client could do this, and happen to any freelancer.

chillynguyen · ‎05-01-2022

Ken W wrote:
"While upwork are disputing the chargeback (say this can take up to 90 days) - they have restricted my account from any withdrawals, and when another client released a milestone for a different project, Upwork took that money and sent it directly to previous client!"
Any client could do this, and happen to any freelancer.

This is scary. In the place I live, for most people, 12000$ is 3 years of salary. If this happens to one of them, his/her family would be dead starving.

fourohfourfilms · ‎05-02-2022

Yes, its not a small amount of money - not only have I lost 3 months of work, but now I have to work for another 3 months to get my money back.

chillynguyen · ‎05-02-2022

Basically, if nothing changes, you have been robbed 24000$.

Normally I don't pay much attention on chargeback threads, since they are often because of the freelancers violating Upwork's ToS and stepped into the "clients" 'traps, but in this case you did nothing wrong.

I'll push the "notify a morderator" button and hopefully someone could leave us an answer.

petra_r · ‎05-02-2022

Nhu Nhu N wrote:
Basically, if nothing changes, you have been robbed 24000$.

No, he hasn't. It's half that. You can't double it, that's faulty logic.

Normally I don't pay much attention on chargeback threads, since they are often because of the freelancers violating Upwork's ToS and stepped into the "clients" 'traps, but in this case you did nothing wrong.

Whatever do you mean? You are mixing up reversals of funds and chargebacks. A chargeback is the client's bank taking the money from Upwork (something Upwork can't prevent), which puts the OPs Upwork balance in the red. The client's bank simply takes the money back. That is what a chargeback means.

I'll push the "notify a morderator" button and hopefully someone could leave us an answer.

Whatever for?

gilbert-phyllis · ‎05-01-2022

Ken, I do understand your frustration and I'm more sympathetic than I probably sound. I'm crossing my fingers that UW will recoup at least some of the money for you through the chargeback appeal process. (I am puzzled why, with so much money on the table, neither you nor the client was inclined to invest in arbitration.)

The main reason I've put in my two cents' worth is that forum threads like this comprise a valuable knowledge base about how things work on the platform, especially when it comes to projects that go awry. The narrative needs to be accurate about ToS and policies; and I think it's valuable when it includes robust discussion of best practices. Certain universal laws operate in freelancing. One is the inherent power imbalance between client and FL. Another is that as FLs we live and die by risk management. Less experienced FLs reading along need to understand all that. As you say, a chargeback can happen to any of us at any time--on UW or any place we accept payment via credit card.

fourohfourfilms · ‎05-02-2022

Question - Why would I invest in arbitration? They had a dispute with me, not the other way around. They were trying to get the funds back from me, and they were given the choice of arbtitration when the dispute didnt go in their favor. They didnt do that. I still had the funds at this point.
They went against upworkd ToS and filed a chargeback. Now, that is being disupted by me and UW, and can take up to 90 days. If that dispute doesnt result in anything positive, I could then take to arbritritaion then.

I feel they didnt go to arbritation because they feared it wouldnt go in their favor.

petra_r · ‎05-02-2022

Ken W wrote:
Question - Why would I invest in arbitration?

Sorry, what?

So the client doesn't get their money back. That's why. If you refuse to go to arbitration, the client wins by default. Read the Terms of Service.

If the client refuses to go to arbitration, you win by default.

If that dispute doesnt result in anything positive, I could then take to arbritritaion then.

You won't be able to go to arbitration if the chargeback isn't successfully defended. The arbitration ship has sailed.

I feel they didnt go to arbritation because they feared it wouldnt go in their favor.

Of course. From what we have seen here, arbitration goes oberwhelmingly in favour of the freelancer.

fourohfourfilms · ‎05-02-2022

Sorry, what?

So the client doesn't get their money back. That's why. If you refuse to go to arbitration, the client wins by default. Read the Terms of Service.

How would this have stopped the client gettign their money back? They filed a chargeback, which you have been saying this whole time is out of UW's hands. Nobody refused to go to arbitration, just no-one decided to. At this point after dispute mediation, I had the money. If the client wanted to take me to arbitration, so be it, I would fight them. If I won arbritration, it wouldnt really have changed anything, they could still file a chargeback.

Im waiting to see what happens with the chargeback dispute, and If I have to fight further, I will decide then if its worth it.

chillynguyen · ‎05-02-2022

I believe that filing a chargeback is completely wrong; but talking about arbitration cases, it's like this:

Upwork's mediation team can't decide who is right, no matter what proofs any parties send. Their job is to persuade both parties reach an agreement. So, if there is no agreement made, the last option is to hire an AAA agent.

If the client pays for arbitration and the freelancer doesn't: The escrow money + the arbitration fee will be returned to the client.

If the freelancer pays for arbitration and the client doesn't: The escrow money + the arbitration fee will be returned to the freelancer.

If no one pays: The money will go to the one who filed the dispute. (I'm not 100% sure about this last part since I read it a long time ago)

So, if you believe that you are right, pay for the arbitration.

d_samuel_udokpok · ‎05-01-2022

So you think the client is right by filing for a chargeback? Ken isn't the only freelancer with poor experience with the client. The only fault of the FL is not splitting the project into milestones.

gilbert-phyllis · ‎05-01-2022

David S wrote:
So you think the client is right by filing for a chargeback? Ken isn't the only freelancer with poor experience with the client. The only fault of the FL is not splitting the project into milestones.

If you're replying to me, then no, I don't think the client was right to file a chargeback. I'm just not surprised that they did and I think the whole situation could have been avoided by managing the contract and project differently. It's easy for me to be an armchair quarterback but that's the value of these discussions. Also, I'm vehemently opposed to the idea that UW is somehow responsible for preventing and/or remedying the situation.

petra_r · ‎05-01-2022

David S wrote:
So you think the client is right by filing for a chargeback?

Where did she say anything of the sort?

The only fault of the FL is not splitting the project into milestones.

What in the world makes you think he didn't? And what difference does it make? (Hint: It makes no difference whatsoever at all.)

fourohfourfilms · ‎05-02-2022

Milestone were made. The first one, was approved.
At the end, they requested a refund and disputed when I said no, which didnt go in their favor as I had a LOT of work to show.
Then they filed a chargeback. Wouldnt matter how many milestones were made or approved.

the-right-writer · ‎05-01-2022

Phyllis,

You have some good points. Advanced payments are a bad idea for multiple reasons, for both freelancer and client. I understand wanting a deposit or down payment as in other industries, but that isn't how Upwork or most platforms function. When most are not insisting on pre-payment, it adds to the look of an unprofessional request.

Were mistakes made by both parties? Apparently, but when a client/buyer runs screaming to the bank that they have been cheated - why do they take no steps at all for mediation? Why aren't they demanding Upwork fix this? That is the red flag that tells me they are; if they are not outright thieves, they behave as thieves.

but in my experience, when a client/buyer/purchaser of a product or service does little to nothing in mediation but instead

gilbert-phyllis · ‎05-01-2022

Jeanne H wrote:
Phyllis,
You have some good points. Advanced payments are a bad idea for multiple reasons, for both freelancer and client. I understand wanting a deposit or down payment as in other industries, but that isn't how Upwork or most platforms function. When most are not insisting on pre-payment, it adds to the look of an unprofessional request.

Were mistakes made by both parties? Apparently, but when a client/buyer runs screaming to the bank that they have been cheated - why do they take no steps at all for mediation? Why aren't they demanding Upwork fix this? That is the red flag that tells me they are; if they are not outright thieves, they behave as thieves.

but in my experience, when a client/buyer/purchaser of a product or service does little to nothing in mediation but instead

According to the OP, they did walk through the mediation process but could not reach agreement. Evidently, both parties were absolutely convinced they were in the right and yet with $10k or more on the table, neither was willing to invest $291 in arbitration. We all need to remember when push comes to shove--whether it's a fixed-price contract on this platform or any other or via direct payment, any client who pays us with a credit card has an ace up their sleeve: chargeback. ETA: Just read back up the thread and see you made this point already. Do I condone that choice on the client's part? No. But there's nothing UW can do to prevent it and I certainly don't want my fees to increase so UW can cover the rear ends of FLs who mismanage contracts and get into that particular jam.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say, "why aren't they demanding Upwork fix this?" Fix what? Upwork did everything it promises to do: created a venue where the client and FL could find each other and execute a contract; faciliated payment(s); provided mediation; and made available binding arbitration by a third party. It's not UW's business to intervene in the contract terms or oversee the work and believe me, we don't ever want them to get the idea that they should.

petra_r · ‎05-01-2022

Phyllis G wrote:
Evidently, both parties were absolutely convinced they were in the right and yet with $10k or more on the table, neither was willing to invest $291 in arbitration. .

In fairness, the OP likely WAS willing to go for arbitration because the client would have got their money back automatically had the OP declined arbitration and the chargeback would have been unneccessary.

gilbert-phyllis · ‎05-02-2022

OP could have requested arbitration, right? For $12k or $10k or however much was at issue, I would've.

the-right-writer · ‎05-02-2022

I didn't say Upwork should do anything, nor did I say any implementation affecting fees was required. I didn't make myself clear. You wrote

"I'm not sure what you mean when you say, "why aren't they demanding Upwork fix this?" Fix what?"

I was referring to the client's attempts to settle the dispute before calling the bank. Most clients demand that Upwork fix the situation, but they did not. Unhappy clients complain and insist on justice. They do not race to their bank and demand all the money back. I have never been in a fight with a client, but I have seen plenty. I stand by my previous statements. Advance payments are a bad idea; mistakes were made by both parties, and the client is behaving badly and acting with bad intent.

Upwork has responsibilities and should be held to them, but this is not one of them. The truth is we are on our own, taking a chance every time we connect with a stranger and make financial transactions. Upwork will do nothing to assist anyone with a chargeback. Nowhere in all of the literature is there any mention of taking care of freelancers or protecting them. It is crucial freelancers understand they are on their own and behave accordingly. To me, it's just a different version of the precautions you take in life. Be cautious, don't get involved with crime (such as taking a job offering vast amounts of money for almost nothing), follow what rules there are, look for red flags, and be very careful. If it seems too good to be true, it definitely is. If freelancers want or expect Upwork or any platform to protect them, they should not be an online freelancer.

pgiambalvo · ‎05-02-2022

Mostly agree, but for me, I often ask for part of the total payment to be paid as the first milestone for me start the project. Rarely do clients decline to do this because they understand I am trying to both protect myself and the client by the way the milestones are set up. I protect them by giving them the option to cancel the project after I've delivered half the project as the second milestone, but that has very rarely happened. I usually work on screenplays. so without getting that first milestone for me to start, I could work on something for a week, send it to them, they hate it, don't want to pay, and I'll have spent a week working for free. Then after they do approve the second milestone, I finish the project to get the final milestone.

the-right-writer · ‎05-02-2022

I use milestones consistently. I have no problem using them or ensuring you receive what you need to work. I was under the impression that the advance was just that and not set up in milestones. I could be wrong about that. I usually split the job into manageable milestone chunks with appropriate fees for the reasons you mention.

karinskold · ‎05-01-2022

I understand your frustration. It is sometimes so hard to understand Upworks way of doing things. How an account could be restricted. You can not reach the people to help or answer your concerns.

It has upset me too.

chillynguyen · ‎05-01-2022

I had just been in a dispute and the job was closed when the case was closed. I used my perk to remove his feedback, then I found out that he used his perk to remove my feedback too, and his feedback for me is still kept in his wall.

After a period of time, a new Upwork agent reopened the dispute case (I believed it was because the client asked Upwork to) and keep asking me to send him new revision files in order to help him "continue his project". Those files haven't been created yet.

I truthly believe that Upwork favors the clients more, although they don't say it out publicly.

petra_r · ‎05-01-2022

Nhu Nhu N wrote:
I had just been in a dispute and the job was closed when the case was closed. I used my perk to remove his feedback, then I found out that he used his perk to remove my feedback too, and his feedback for me is still kept in his wall.

There is no way his feedback to you should show on the client's profile. When you remove feedback, it shows "This feedback has been removed" both on the client and the freelancer's side.

Also, Ken's issue isn't with the dispute, it's with a chargeback.

chillynguyen · ‎05-01-2022

It still shows. I've just sent you a google doc that includes the screenshot through message. The moderator will remove it if I send it here.

petra_r · ‎05-01-2022

Nhu Nhu N wrote:
It still shows. If you want, I can send you a screenshot through message.

Please do. That must be a bug, because it is literally always removed from both sides. Keep on at support to fix it, because it should not be that way.

Frustrated with Upwork and how they are handling a disput