Is there an "Other" list for proposals?

atreglia · ‎08-20-2023

I recently learned there are three places our proposals can end up: the boosted list, the organic list, and a third list called “Other”. Can anyone, preferably a moderator, explain what the “Other” list is for? As far as I know there are only two types of proposals; Boosted and Organic. If this is true why are there three lists? If there is an “Other” list, where is it placed and what are the determinining factors that send our proposals to the “Other” list.

I’m asking because years ago there was a big hoopla about proposals being sent to an “Archived” list, unbeknownst to the freelancer that sent it. Upwork said they stopped doing this, so now, and especially since we now purchase connects, I’m wondering if the “Other” list is really the same thing, just another name. Thanks.

spectralua · ‎08-20-2023

Its a simple: Upwork force you to boost. You can waste money to boost with no guarantees or you proposal will be trashed to "others".

25005175 · ‎08-20-2023

OTHER is the bottom of the pile, reserved for proposals that the algorithm determines do not meet the criteria of the job post. Apparently it was around at least as far back as the beginning of 2020. As far as I can tell, all screenshots of the setup have been taken down. This is the most recent example that I know of (note that OP said that he received the screenshot from the client, who knew OP since high school).

motoyen · ‎08-20-2023

Yes there's an other list. It appears at the bottom of the page. The propals are hidden and so you have to click a link to open it.

Upwork won't tell you if your prposal ends up in the others list or not but they will be happy to take your money for the connects you just spent!

tlsanders · ‎08-20-2023

The other list is not new. The archived section was a different issue entirely: clients can archive proposals if they're not interested to clean up the list and Upwork was taking it upon itself to do that for the client, with the client never knowing it had happened and not knowing they'd received those proposals unless they opened their archived tab for some reason.

debi-f · ‎08-21-2023

Hello,

What do you mean by "there are three places our proposals can end up".

I work here for more than 10 years and never heard about it.

Who/what decides where our proposal end up?

pgregory_indigo · ‎08-21-2023

Given the information available, I'd guess that it might be where proposals that don't meet some preferred criteria defined by the client end up. For example, some clients specify a freelancer location as a preference, not being from that location doesn't prevent you from submitting a proposal to that job, it'll warn you that you don't meet the client's preferences, but you can still apply (because of course, there's connects to be collected, why would they prevent that), so it wouldn't be outside the realms of possibility that your proposal will end up in "Other" in that situation.

Just conjecture until someone from UW chimes in to clarify.

yofazza · ‎08-21-2023

Mods might say that the "other" folder is used for that (unmatched criteria, etc), but what I'm getting from reading threads similar with the one Jonathan's posted above, and also my experience, the reason that could put you into that folder is random, or, determined by the secretive sorting algo to be exact.

Mods confirmed, and there are many evidence, about Upwork "rotating" the search result. What prevents them from doing the same thing to proposals? It's for exactly the same goal; to rotate the perception of opportunity to as many freelancers as possible.

But of course it would be great if mods can confirm and someone could actually prove it. If I'm wrong, at least I'll know that submitting with something that are not "preferred" by the client is next to useless.

"rising talent preferred"
"preferred location"
"preferred budget"
?

atreglia · ‎08-21-2023

Radia L wrote:
Mods might say that the "other" folder is used for that (unmatched criteria, etc), but what I'm getting from reading threads similar with the one Jonathan's posted above, and also my experience, the reason that could put you into that folder is random, or, determined by the secretive sorting algo to be exact.

Mods confirmed, and there are many evidence, about Upwork "rotating" the search result. What prevents them from doing the same thing to proposals? It's for exactly the same goal; to rotate the perception of opportunity to as many freelancers as possible.

But of course it would be great if mods can confirm and someone could actually prove it. At least we'll know that submitting with something that are not "preferred" by the client is next to useless.

"rising talent preferred"
"preferred location"
"preferred budget"
?

Radia, exactly what I was thinking. I had no idea this rip-off practice was going on and am absolutely shocked by the blatant disregard of our time to craft proposals and the money we spend on them. It explains that I need not look any further as to why mine and countless other qualified proposals are not viewed.

Years ago when connects were free was one thing, but now that we pay for them is a game changer. No matter who we are, where we’re from, or what our qualifications are, once Upwork tenders our money all bets should be off and our proposals need be equal in value-just as we paid for them. My goodness, this is proposal manipulation! No wonder thousands of qualified freelancers are scratching their heads wondering what they can do better. We can’t do any better because there is a blind and indiscriminate road block ahead of us that takes our money first, then unilaterally decides what to do with it. Oy vey.

atreglia · ‎08-24-2023

A few day's back I posted a question regarding the "Other" list of proposals. I specifically want to know why Upwork only has two types of proposals-Boosted and Organic, but has three piles to put them in-Boosted, Organic, and "Other"?

Utimately, my concern is that many of our proposals that we spend time crafting and purchasing connects for are ending up in this "Other" pile. I do not think it's fair because as long as we are purchasing connects Upwork need not have any say in how we spend them.

Can a moderator kindly explain this so we can all be aware of this little known practice? Where was it originally written that this is happening? I just recently learned of it but am reasonably certain many others still don't know of it. I asked this a few days ago and did not get a moderator response. I've since flagged it three times and still no response. Thank You.

debi-f · ‎08-24-2023

Hello Anna,

I work here for years, and I really don't know what is the "Other" list.

I send proposals for specific jobs that fit my skills, and clients even don't read my proposals, I don't receive invitations anymore.

Is it related to the "Other" list?

Thank you

atreglia · ‎08-24-2023

Hi Debora, you asked this question a few days ago when I first posted it but I was hoping a moderator would come around and respond. I flagged the post three times and it still didnt work. Today, on this post, I PM'd a moderator and no luck so far. Perhaps you can flag it too?

I'm beginning to think moderators just don't want to go near this question because there's no sugar coating manipulating our proposals once they are submitted with purchased connects.

celgins · ‎08-24-2023

The most recent discussion I can remember was back in late July. You can see that discussion here.

Moderators Pradeep and Arjay noted that a proposal might show under the "Other Proposals" section if it doesn't meet some of the preferences the client defined. But I doubt either of them--or any other Moderator--will tell us why there are only two types of proposals (Boosted and Organic), but three different tabs to put them in.

In my opinion, even if a proposal does not meet most of the client's job requirements, it shouldn't be segregated to another tab/pile. My guess is, Upwork does this to prevent clients from seeing proposals that don't match their job descriptions. The problem is, the algorithm decides this and sometimes places highly relevant proposals in "Other" that shouldn't be there.

atreglia · ‎08-24-2023

Right, and I find it a disingenuous practice. To me, when Upwork tenders our money the transaction is over.....none of this, "well, first pay us, then we'll run your proposal through our secret algorithm to determine what to do with it". No, no, no. When we purchase connects our money is equal, and our connects should be too. This is very unnerving.

yofazza · ‎08-24-2023

the algorithm decides this and sometimes places highly relevant proposals in "Other" that shouldn't be there.

In the other thread, you mentioned that it's an error by the algo. I believe, it's not an error but a feature to support their goals.

Looking at how they have time to research with placebo boost has convinced me even further 😄

But a funny thing 😄

Just like the "ignored" scam posts, they have their priorities.

celgins · ‎08-24-2023

Yeah... I can understand that mindset, but I still think it's an error. Upwork's various algorithms come with glitches and I'm sure many quality proposals are dumped into "Other" when they are comparable or better than the proposals not sent to "Other." A machine learning algorithm that continuously attempts to predict placement and rankings for millions of proposals? That's a recipe for disaster as I see it.

I can understand Upwork's desire to show clients the best proposals, but like Anna said--if I'm paying 16 Connects and other freelancers are paying 16 Connects--I really don't want an algorithm deciding that my proposal isn't worthy to be in the starting line-up.

By the way, I've seen quite a few jobs from banned countries, but I never flag them. Just another example of glitchy algorithms not blocking what should be blocked. 😂

yofazza · ‎08-24-2023

I can understand Upwork's desire to show clients the best proposals

Just to clarify, the mindset of me is "Upwork is prioritizing rotation". Just like the confirmed rotation in search result, rotating proposal views has exactly the same goal.

So, they are no longer interested in showing 'best proposals'. They tried that (having good/quality freelancers) for years, but it didn't work for their net income. They are currently trying something else, but of course, they will still attempt to find a balance to prevent reaching the saturation point that could eventually make all real clients leave.

Again, this is just me without actual proof etc. 😊

tlsanders · ‎08-24-2023

I can understand Upwork's desire to show clients the best proposals, but like Anna said--if I'm paying 16 Connects and other freelancers are paying 16 Connects--I really don't want an algorithm deciding that my proposal isn't worthy to be in the starting line-up.

Arguably, the same is true when the algorithm decides your proposal belongs in the 79th spot.

tlsanders · ‎08-24-2023

It would be very strange if Upwork's goal was to make sure qualified freelancers did not get hired and Upwork did not collect fees.

yofazza · ‎08-24-2023

My response would be, "they tried that for years and didn't work".

did not collect fees.

We know collecting connects money is more provitable than collecting the fees on some projects. They just have to find some balances here and there to make sure "the chance is rotated" while still prevent reaching the saturation point that could eventually make all real clients leave.

tlsanders · ‎08-24-2023

Sure, but if all the clients leave because they're not finding anyone to hire, there won't be anything to spend connects on.

The idea that they're pushing newer and lower level freelancers does make sense to me, though, because I've been convinced for the past couple of years that Upwork is moving away from freelancers, and that seems to have accelerated dramatically in the past 6 months or so.

feed_my_eyes · ‎08-28-2023

Tiffany S wrote:
Sure, but if all the clients leave because they're not finding anyone to hire, there won't be anything to spend connects on.

I think that's exactly what's happening.

tjmisny · ‎02-19-2024

I am certain this is what is happening - there are so, so many jobs I have applied to where nobody has been hired. And I am not even viewed. So by all likelihood very few or no people are viewed. Clients look at this absolute clusterf*ck of casino style ranking-results and decide it's not trustworthy.

feed_my_eyes · ‎08-27-2023

Tiffany S wrote:
It would be very strange if Upwork's goal was to make sure qualified freelancers did not get hired and Upwork did not collect fees.

Well, they rotate search results to supposedly give everyone a fair chance, even though this means that some clients end up seeing totally unsuitable freelancers at the top of the list, with more qualified freelancers buried dozens of pages back, so that has nothing to do with connecting clients with the best talent. If their goal has shifted to profitting from connects sales, it would make sense to ensure that as many freelancers as possible get jobs at least occasionally, because that means that they'll keep buying connects. They could be rotating the proposal order in the same way as the search results.

tlsanders · ‎08-28-2023

I think rotating freelancers in search, especially when clients have the option of filtering by things like top rated and earnings, is very different from burying the proposals from people the client might actually consider hiring.

I'm honestly not sure anymore, though, because I believe you and I are the type of freelancers Upwork is preparing to weed out.

2ef54d61 · ‎08-24-2023

That's really frustrating, because it's not at all uncommon for a client to have preferred qualifications that are stupid, like wanting someone to be in the same exact timezone for a remote job that requires no interaction.

celgins · ‎08-24-2023

True... and if my proposal is outside of the preferred qualifications, I could understand why it would be relegated to the "Other Proposals" tab.

My concern is with an algorithm that uses current and historic data, profile content, proposal content, job descriptions, and other factors to predict your proposal rank. It doesn't get it right all the time, which is why I think good proposals sometimes end up stuffed in a client's "Other Proposals" tab--exactly where they shouldn't be.

tlsanders · ‎08-24-2023

That part doesn't bother me, because the client chose that. But when great freelancers who are a perfect fit end up there....

tlsanders · ‎08-24-2023

My experience as a client is that sometimes the perfect freelancer ends up in "other."

That said, "boosted" and "organic" are categories for the freelancer--proposals you boosted and proposals you did not. That has nothing to do with the organization of proposals the client sees, which is the top four boosted positions (not all boosted proposals) followed by an algorithmic shuffle of all proposals Upwork thinks meet the client's criteria followed by a link in the list that says "other" and the client must click to open. In my experience, a very small percentage of proposals end up in "other," and the bigger problem for freelancers is being shuffled to page 7 by the algorithm.

atreglia · ‎08-27-2023

This is the second post I created on this topic; both times requesting a moderator, flagged 5 times, and PM'd two moderators. After each post I received the following "no reply" email. So now, in addition to my original question, ummm, why send this email if I can't respond to it? I mean, it specifically asks if any of the replies solved your problem and my answer is no.

Perhaps boosting questions is next as I'd certainly have boosted this one if I could have recieved an honest, non-boiler plate answer. But for now I'm going to have to assume that no anwser from Upwork is, in fact, my answer.

tlsanders · ‎08-28-2023

Anna, for what it's worth, I think most clients who are not total newcomers know that Upwork's idea of best match and who should be dumped into other very often doesn't match ours. I always open "other," and I'm sure many other clients do, too--especially experienced ones.

atreglia · ‎08-28-2023

Tiffany S wrote:
Anna, for what it's worth, I think most clients who are not total newcomers know that Upwork's idea of best match and who should be dumped into other very often doesn't match ours. I always open "other," and I'm sure many other clients do, too--especially experienced ones.

Tiffany, I believe that and thank you for sharing your experience. However, your experience may not necessarily help me because part of my issue is that I prefer new, or fairly new, clients. I prefer them because, frankly, I prefer to get hold of them before they realize they can get nearly the same work for pennies on my dollar by hiring off-shore. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve looked at client hiring histories only to find that within 1-3 hires they’re hiring off-shore. I can’t compete with that. That said, I’m fairly quick to send proposals to these clients in the hope they’ll see I’m a good match with excellent native communication but that isn’t working anymore. This is, for the most part, how I realized something is very wrong here. My previous stats were about 1 job every 4-6 proposals. So far this year it’s 1/41 causing me to lose my TR status-adding insult to injury. So, when I read about the “Other” list, the bells went off, and I’ve concluded that that is where my proposals are likely ending up-despite my best efforts to apply early and be a best match.

On the heels of Upwork’s new money grab I do not believe any proposal should be put in “Other”, without properly informing the freelancer that this is a possibility and how to avoid it. They wanted their money, they got their money; now they need to butt out and reap what they sowed. They can’t have it both ways. I’m really getting tired of discovering Upwork’s little known secret practices. They’re costing a lot of people a lot of money.

AveryO · ‎08-28-2023

Hi Anna,

I had to merge your threads since they discussed the same topic. It will also help consolidate all feedback regarding the topic if there's a need to forward this to the product team.

I understand that there's some confusion for some users regarding the Others tab. I want to share that a proposal may show under the Other Proposals section if it doesn't meet some of the preferences the client defined on their jobs, like previous work history, availability, or skills. However, the client can still access all proposals sent for their job, shortlist, accept or decline them.

Best Match proposals will show at the top of the list, together with any boosted proposal. Clients are also notified that a proposal is boosted and what boosting means.

I want to clarify a few things that were mentioned to avoid confusing any silent reader of this topic:

Christine A wrote:
"They could be rotating the proposal order in the same way as the search results."

Radia L wrote:
"Mods confirmed, and there are many evidence, about Upwork "rotating" the search result. What prevents them from doing the same thing to proposals? It's for exactly the same goal; to rotate the perception of opportunity to as many freelancers as possible."

Proposals are not rotated the same way as search results are rotated. These are both separate components and don't work the same.

If a client feels that a proposal in the Others tab was mistakenly added there, they can contact support directly so we can forward it to the team to be investigated further.

~ Avery

atreglia · ‎08-28-2023

Avery O wrote:

Proposals are not rotated the same way as search results are rotated. These are both separate components and don't work the same.

This tells me that proposals are, in fact, rotated. They're just rotated differently than search results. So, I guess we're back to square one.

celgins · ‎08-28-2023

I wonder if any rotating of proposals is based on the "shuffling" as new proposals are added to the pile. Meaning, each new proposal must be ranked against all others and not simply tacked onto the end of the pile of proposals. For example:

The way I see it, the Best Matches and non-Best Matches keep getting shuffled as new proposals come in. Each new proposal is ranked by the algorithm and those ranks are compared to the ranks of existing proposals, and things are constanctly getting bumped around (until no more proposals are coming in).

This is an oversimplification because I'm sure the algorithm jumps through several hoops to rank and position proposals.

yofazza · ‎08-28-2023

Clark, I don't quite get it. Do you mean, "proposals are not ranked based on the time they are received"?

Isn't that what it is the whole time?

Yes when someone submit without boosting after there are 50+ proposals submitted already, their proposal can still go to position #5. But the problem is, that person need not to be the best matching person to the job...

"Our" problem actually, because from Upwork's POV it's a feature instead of a problem.

And just in case, I need to clarify too that "our" means "most of us", not "all freelancers in all niches".

--

Client preference and the "other" tab

I actually have tried to never again send proposals when the client prefers something that are not in me such as location, english proficiency, and budget (I think I missed the 'prefer rising talent' one, will keep this in mind in my future proposals).

But no, my view ratio doesn't change.

atreglia · ‎08-28-2023

Radia L wrote:
Clark, I don't quite get it. Do you mean, "proposals are not ranked based on the time they are received"?

Isn't that what it is the whole time?

I'm unsure if I understand your comment but I recall reading several times that non-boosted proposals are not presented in the same order they were received-even though they are purchased. To me, this means they are being manipulated by some secret algorithm that denies us the right to make an informed purchase.

yofazza · ‎08-28-2023

non-boosted proposals are not presented in the same order they were received

That's correct.

And yes they're manipulated, and we are uninformed, but I can understand the reason though (they want to start gaining profit).

atreglia · ‎08-29-2023

Right, I read the same thing too. But have a look at what they emailed me the other day. Honestly, there's just no reason for this other than to entice someone to hurry up and purchase a proposal. So sad.

celgins · ‎08-29-2023

Very sad, because the only way I see "posting as soon as possible to gain a good competitive position" as viable, is if a client is actively viewing proposals as they arrive. For example, a client posts a job, and within 30 minutes to 1 hour, the client is already reviewing submitted proposals.

Since we have no idea when a client will view their proposals, I have no problems with freelancers who want to submit as soon as they see a new job. But when clients are receiving 30+ jobs within an hour or less, the algorithm begins to determine rank and positioning.