Is there an "Other" list for proposals? - Page 2

atreglia · ‎08-20-2023

I recently learned there are three places our proposals can end up: the boosted list, the organic list, and a third list called “Other”. Can anyone, preferably a moderator, explain what the “Other” list is for? As far as I know there are only two types of proposals; Boosted and Organic. If this is true why are there three lists? If there is an “Other” list, where is it placed and what are the determinining factors that send our proposals to the “Other” list.

I’m asking because years ago there was a big hoopla about proposals being sent to an “Archived” list, unbeknownst to the freelancer that sent it. Upwork said they stopped doing this, so now, and especially since we now purchase connects, I’m wondering if the “Other” list is really the same thing, just another name. Thanks.

tlsanders · ‎08-29-2023

The emails notifying a client of proposals with the freelancer's info in them do seem to go out close to in real time.

celgins · ‎08-29-2023

Yes, but can't those notifications be turned off?

If they can't be turned off, are clients being notified when each proposal arrives in real time or near real time?

yofazza · ‎08-29-2023

Thought about that as well and my view ratio doesn't change. Maybe it's a combination between too many emails, client preference (that don't open emails), and delay in email delivery.

tlsanders · ‎08-29-2023

That is **bleep**ty.

They seem to be tripping over themselves yelling "SPEND CONNECTS!" A couple of days ago, I bought some connects and within about two minutes they were emailing me pushing me to use them. I mean...I bought them for a reason... Did they think I was starting a collection?

atreglia · ‎08-29-2023

Right, and if these are the business practices we see, imagine what we don't see.

feed_my_eyes · ‎08-30-2023

Radia L wrote:
And yes they're manipulated, and we are uninformed, but I can understand the reason though (they want to start gaining profit).

I don't see how it profits anyone - not Upwork, not clients and not freelancers - if Upwork is telling clients that their "best match" is somebody with an empty profile who doesn't even provide the skill that's required.

yofazza · ‎08-30-2023

That part might be a mistake, an "excess" of what they're trying to do.

The business development might simply instruct the tech division to 'rotate' the opportunities, they don't usually know about the details, and this is where things could (often) go awry.

I don't know about empty profile in the best match, they should fix it. But 'no-history', 'rising talent', still makes sense (for the rotation).

celgins · ‎08-28-2023

Clark, I don't quite get it. Do you mean, "proposals are not ranked based on the time they are received"?

Yes, that is what I mean.

The way I perceive the algorithm working, when a new proposal is submitted, the algorithm decides where it goes--it isn't simply added to the end of the stack or based on time. That would be of no benefit to Upwork or the client.

For example, let's say a client is seeking an information paper on the personal and athletic commitments of a woman gymnast. There are 30 proposals already submitted by college gymnasts with great information. However, as an expert, Simone Biles submits a superb proposal that matches the client's requirements 100 percent. The algorithm decides where her proposal should be ranked among non-boosted proposals. My guess is, the algorithm weighs such a proposal and includes it in "Best Matches."

It would make no sense--to me--to even have an algorithm if proposals were ranked based on their time of receipt. It would seem the auto-submitters would always be directly behind any boosted proposals simply because they submitted within 10 seconds, or 2 minutes, or 30 minutes after the job is posted.

yofazza · ‎08-28-2023

That's true, the "problem" is (our problem, because from Upwork's POV it's a feature instead) the other way around can happen. When Simone Biles submitted first, her proposal could always stay at the bottom. So the client is almost can't even have a glance at her proposal snippet when they look at the list after there are 50+ proposal submitted already.

We've seen many people (clients) testify that the "best match" section contains freelancers with 0 previous jobs, and freelancers who should have been a good match placed in the "other" folder, etc. So freelancers and Upwork has a different understanding in the word "best match". "Rotation" is one "irrelevant" element from FL's POV, that is considered by UW in determining best match.

So I imagine, if "it's not my time yet to get another chance of hire by having a view", my proposal will always be placed at the bottom no matter how "fit" I am for the job, and no matter how fast I submit. The algo will try to prevent me from getting a view. But once it's rotated enough, it will "give" me the chance.

--

Again I need to clarify:

This is my imagination and might not happen to all freelancers.
My total earning is low but the experience is: I used to have no problem in getting jobs here. I used to wake up with messages after I send some proposals.
Right now (after the changes and also the release of the viewed feature), 80% of my proposals are not seen, although I'll still most likely got hired if clients see my proposal (I get like 5 hires out of 6 interviews).
And finally, I am not actually complaining. I might do the same thing if I'm in the management where a decade is almost passed but operating cost always exceeds the revenue.

yofazza · ‎08-28-2023

Or do you mean the 'rotation' is when a single proposal can go outside and into the "other" folder as new proposals submitted? Well that's a possibility, but you know I've also tried to not submit a proposal if the job is in the 20+ phase already, and no the view ratio doesn't change. 😁

celgins · ‎08-29-2023

Well, the "Other Proposals" list is an issue, which is why Anna started this post.

The goal of the algorithm is to determine the best matches for a client's job and generate a positive outcome for the client (i.e., hire a qualified freelancer to complete my task on-time, within my budget, etc.).

From my research and experience, algorithms constantly use reasoning to determine the best match (i.e., who is the best candidate to solve the client's problem). I believe the result is a "weight" being applied to each proposal, and those weights are used to rank a group of proposals.

If we revisit the Simone Biles scenario, her non-boosted proposal should be at the top of the "Best Matches" list. For example, the algorithm--in all it's wondrous glory--would analyze her proposal based on the following types of questions. (Weight -- Poor=0.0 -to- Strong=10.0):

Question/Analysis	Weight
Is Simone Bile's proposal related to the job requirements?	9.8
Using her title, summary, skill categories, and other sections of her profile, and matching those with her proposal, how confident can I be in adding Simone's proposal to this client's list of proposals?	9.2
Based on the relevance of her proposal and her profile to the client's job, how great is Simone Biles' proposal when compared to the 30 proposals already in the pile?	10.0
Looking at historical data from similar jobs and the proposals submitted to those jobs, how likely is that Simone's proposal is the best for this job?	9.7
When analyzing feedback and success indicators of freelancers and clients engaging in similar completed jobs, what are the chances that Simone can successfully complete this project for this client?	10.0

Under great circumstances, Simone's proposal would be ranked higher than every other proposal and she would be in position #1. But noooooooooo... Upwork isn't normal and Upwork allows boosting, so she will never be in position #1. So this means, her non-boosted proposal should now be at the top of "Best Matches," but even that might not happen if the algorithm, in all its glitchiness, incorrectly scores her proposal.

Even worse (getting back to Anna's original message) is when the algorithm really gets it wrong and deposits Simone's proposal in the "Other Proposals" pile, where some clients may never see it.

My argument is--and I think Anna's is too--is that when I pay 16 Connects to submit a proposal, my proposal should appear alongside every other freelancer who paid 16 Connects. Whether my rank is low or high, my proposal should be in the same list with everybody, and should not be dumped into the "Other Proposals" folder.

feed_my_eyes · ‎08-28-2023

Avery O wrote:
I want to share that a proposal may show under the Other Proposals section if it doesn't meet some of the preferences the client defined on their jobs, like previous work history, availability, or skills. However, the client can still access all proposals sent for their job, shortlist, accept or decline them.

Best Match proposals will show at the top of the list, together with any boosted proposal. Clients are also notified that a proposal is boosted and what boosting means.

The algorithms don't work, though. "Best Match" is often a freelancer with no previous work history who doesn't even provide the service that the client has requested, with better matches relegated to the "Other" pile. Upwork can't get it right, so it would be better if they didn't try.

Avery O wrote:
If a client feels that a proposal in the Others tab was mistakenly added there, they can contact support directly so we can forward it to the team to be investigated further.

The liklihood of that happening is approximately zero, though, isn't it? I doubt very much that even if a client cared enough to report this, Upwork would do anything about it.

tlsanders · ‎08-28-2023

It's happened to me, and it certainly never occurred to me to contact support. I just feel like Upwork is not going to re-do its algorithm because I got a great candidate in the other list.