Re: JSS computation with additional feature

Neil P · ‎05-13-2019

I just have an idea that might help on computing JSS. You may be aware that the thing I am about to suggest is being practiced by some other freelancing website. That is the token being merited to the freelancers and clients based on income/ expenditures they contributed to the site. This reserved tokens can be used to block negative feedback both by client and freelancers.

I think this addition to system is very logical and beneficial.

If the freelancer is working with two projects, one amounting $3000 and the other is $30. The timeline of deliveries here is very vulnerable. If the contract of $30 went not cool and client can easily file dispute with nothing really to worry but a very small amount of money in the contract? What is left for the freelancer here? 50% bad record for his JSS while he still works to deliver $3000 contract which by the way, can last for over a month or months to deliver even before he can offer his service to another potential client? I thinks this is something we are missing. These two contracts that the freelancer have should not be treated equally in terms of his JSS. They are not. One of these brings weight to the income, work and time both for the platform and freelancer.

Given the scenario that both work is over, the current system will still count them as two jobs. Good rating for the $3000 contract and bad rating for $30 contract, equals 50% on your JSS?

Isn't it logical to see that $3000 contract is about 100 x of that $30 contract? If the freelancer took so much time to deliver the $3000 contract, should it only fair to give it a little more merit than the lost $30 contract?

What do you think guys? I am not a newbie in the world of freelancing. I am just wondering if this is a thing to consider. Let me know your thought.

Kholleras I · ‎05-13-2019

Something similar is already in place; long-term contracts (on which people tend to earn more) boost the JSS.

Neil P · ‎05-13-2019

The problem is, long term contract is only applied on new milestones or hourly jobs. I don't think it applies to one time project with a fixed price contract? Does it?

Neil P · ‎05-13-2019

That is what I am actually looking for. For a one time job with big amount? What kind of deal we have in that?

Petra R · ‎05-13-2019

Another "Hey Upwork, please change your processes to benefit me based on my very specific circumstances" post...

Neil P · ‎05-13-2019

Just thinking if the case is worth considering? It could be anybody's case.

I believe upwork do change for the better. Who doesn't like that?

I'm not sure if this matter has already appeared in other community thread. I would love to hear other's opinion.

Robert B · ‎05-14-2019

Hey Neil,

Don't sweat the trolls. There seems to be a contingent of posters on here who are way more focused on chastising and patronizing fellow freelancers than they are on being helpful.

In my opinion you've raised a good point, I'm sure there are others who will agree or at least see it as a valid query.

Richard W · ‎05-14-2019

Weighting the effect of jobs by their earnings has its pros and cons. Maybe the best option would be a nonlinear formula, so a $3000 job doesn't count for 100 times as much as a $30 job, but maybe 4 times as much.

Rene K · ‎05-14-2019

Robert B wrote:

In my opinion you've raised a good point, I'm sure there are others who will agree or at least see it as a valid query.

And at the end, Upwork does what benefits the most Upwork. So yeah, express your ideas, as much as you want.

-----------
"Where darkness shines like dazzling light" —William Ashbless

Jennifer M · ‎05-14-2019

Robert B wrote:
Hey Neil,

Don't sweat the trolls. There seems to be a contingent of posters on here who are way more focused on chastising and patronizing fellow freelancers than they are on being helpful.

In my opinion you've raised a good point, I'm sure there are others who will agree or at least see it as a valid query.

No, she's right. People don't seem to be able to see beyond their shortsighted pov, and it's always noobs too that scream the loudest.

What the OP fails to see is that it goes the other way too. If you get a bad rating on a project, you can take several short, small jobs to boost your score. It wouldn't be possible if things were dollar weighted, so there are advantages too.

But yeah, it's always "i'm not top rated yet so change everything to suit just me because my ideas are valid." Most times these ideas are terrible.

Neil P · ‎05-14-2019

Hi Jennifer M.

I've actually seen that and already considered it in reverse manner which is just equally bad as I was hoping it to be good, of course. However, if we take a look at my original post, I was actually hoping to get this important variable not a direct contribution to the JSS (though it really sounds like it is) but more of "reserve token" which can be accumulated from the "earning" value and not really from the feedback or rating given by the client or freelancer. The fact is, whatever rating or feedback that the client will give you, you still had brought yourself and the platform a certain amount of earning (same thing as the client). And this earning varies from project to project. Simpler one small earnings. But complex ones got big earnings. So, a freelancer as well as the client can accumulate these extra tokens depending on the "amount" of business they brought to the platform or Upwork. In time of need then, they can use these extra token or merits to use or help them boost their JSS... I hope I was able to express it clearer. It is like, the more you earn, the more business you brought to the platform, the more insured we can be.

Jennifer M · ‎05-14-2019

Neil P wrote:
Hi Jennifer M.

I've actually seen that and already considered it in reverse manner which is just equally bad as I was hoping it to be good, of course. However, if we take a look at my original post, I was actually hoping to get this important variable not a direct contribution to the JSS (though it really sounds like it is) but more of "reserve token" which can be accumulated from the "earning" value and not really from the feedback or rating given by the client or freelancer. The fact is, whatever rating or feedback that the client will give you, you still had brought yourself and the platform a certain amount of earning (same thing as the client). And this earning varies from project to project. Simpler one small earnings. But complex ones got big earnings. So, a freelancer as well as the client can accumulate these extra tokens depending on the "amount" of business they brought to the platform or Upwork. In time of need then, they can use these extra token or merits to use or help them boost their JSS... I hope I was able to express it clearer. It is like, the more you earn, the more business you brought to the platform, the more insured we can be.

I have no idea what a token is supposed to mean. I don't even understand what you're getting at in this post, but there's a 99.9% chance it's terrible. If you're trying to desperately figure out ways to get more connects, it's not gonna happen, sweaty.

Phyllis G · ‎05-14-2019

Jennifer M wrote:
Neil P wrote:
Hi Jennifer M.

I've actually seen that and already considered it in reverse manner which is just equally bad as I was hoping it to be good, of course. However, if we take a look at my original post, I was actually hoping to get this important variable not a direct contribution to the JSS (though it really sounds like it is) but more of "reserve token" which can be accumulated from the "earning" value and not really from the feedback or rating given by the client or freelancer. The fact is, whatever rating or feedback that the client will give you, you still had brought yourself and the platform a certain amount of earning (same thing as the client). And this earning varies from project to project. Simpler one small earnings. But complex ones got big earnings. So, a freelancer as well as the client can accumulate these extra tokens depending on the "amount" of business they brought to the platform or Upwork. In time of need then, they can use these extra token or merits to use or help them boost their JSS... I hope I was able to express it clearer. It is like, the more you earn, the more business you brought to the platform, the more insured we can be.

I have no idea what a token is supposed to mean. I don't even understand what you're getting at in this post, but there's a 99.9% chance it's terrible. If you're trying to desperately figure out ways to get more connects, it's not gonna happen, sweaty.

He wants to be able to take on a huge, complex project and make hash of it, and then use a magic token to remove the bad fb. Because he would've earned money for UW--never mind the PO'd client who never comes back and tells all their friends.

Jennifer M · ‎05-14-2019

Phyllis G wrote:
He wants to be able to take on a huge, complex project and make hash of it, and then use a magic token to remove the bad fb. Because he would've earned money for UW--never mind the PO'd client who never comes back and tells all their friends.

lol jeez. If these sweaties would just focus on making money instead of all the garbage distractions, they might have time to rub two brain cells together and go do something with their lives. Top Rated gets a perk to remove bad feedback (I guess this is a token?), and then if you get enough gigs you can really go nuclear on your profile and have a hard time going below 90%. The perk is great, and with it this is stuff you don't have to worry about. There are so many better things to worry about. For instance, it's dangerous to click on anything on reddit cuz those incel bastages keep trying to drop spoilers for Game of Thrones and I'm kinda pissed I accidentally clicked on one thread and saw one of the sentences and now I'm angry. These are legitimate concerns.

Phyllis G · ‎05-14-2019

Jennifer M wrote:
Phyllis G wrote:
He wants to be able to take on a huge, complex project and make hash of it, and then use a magic token to remove the bad fb. Because he would've earned money for UW--never mind the PO'd client who never comes back and tells all their friends.
lol jeez. If these sweaties would just focus on making money instead of all the garbage distractions, they might have time to rub two brain cells together and go do something with their lives. Top Rated gets a perk to remove bad feedback (I guess this is a token?), and then if you get enough gigs you can really go nuclear on your profile and have a hard time going below 90%. The perk is great, and with it this is stuff you don't have to worry about. There are so many better things to worry about. For instance, it's dangerous to click on anything on reddit cuz those incel bastages keep trying to drop spoilers for Game of Thrones and I'm kinda pissed I accidentally clicked on one thread and saw one of the sentences and now I'm angry. These are legitimate concerns.

I just enjoy that I never know, when I wake up each day, where my morning's entertainment might come from.

Phyllis G · ‎05-14-2019

Robert B wrote:
Hey Neil,

Don't sweat the trolls. There seems to be a contingent of posters on here who are way more focused on chastising and patronizing fellow freelancers than they are on being helpful.

In my opinion you've raised a good point, I'm sure there are others who will agree or at least see it as a valid query.

Mistaking (or intentionally mischaracterizing) forum members offering plain-spoken, candid comments as "trolls" is IMO a form of trollery. It's typically the last resort of people who can't muster a rational counter-argument.

troll (noun) :a person who intentionally antagonizes others online by posting inflammatory, irrelevant, or offensive comments or other disruptive content https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/troll

Tonya P · ‎05-14-2019

Neil P wrote:
Just thinking if the case is worth considering? It could be anybody's case.

I believe upwork do change for the better. Who doesn't like that?

I'm not sure if this matter has already appeared in other community thread. I would love to hear other's opinion.

What if, at the end of your large contract, the client suddenly decides that they can use the leverage of that weighted score to ask for free work or a discount? Then, would you still want the large contract to count 10x that of the smaller one? One bad large contract would put your JSS so far down that you would need several small contracts to even begin to bring it back up. And, it would be very hard for you to get any contracts with a low JSS. Best to be careful what you wish for.

Petra R · ‎05-14-2019

Tonya P wrote:

I'm not sure if this matter has already appeared in other community thread. I would love to hear other's opinion.
One bad large contract would put your JSS so far down that you would need several small contracts to even begin to bring it back up. And, it would be very hard for you to get any contracts with a low JSS. Best to be careful what you wish for.

That is how the average star rating is / was calculated, it also weighs "quality" and "skills" twice as heavily as the other factors.

I remember getting nervous when a contract got big, because it meant that one human being had the power to essentially wipe out your freelancing career in one angry moment...

Will L · ‎05-14-2019

It makes sense that higher-value, more complex projects should carry a greater proportional weight than lower-priced projects for a freelancer's JSS calculation.

If one contract accounts for 40% of a freelancer's revenue over the past year and another accounts for 4%, it makes no sense that both carry the same weight in calculating the freelancer's JSS.

This sort of weighting would likely be a more useful input for the JSS than the "long-term customers" measure we’re told is currently being used in calculating the JSS because total contract time for many projects doesn't reflect how much work by the freelancer was required on the project. (I recently asked some idle clients to close their projects with me if no further work was required. One involved a little over seven hours of work over nearly two months. Another was a paused project, on which I worked a total of about 15 hours over eight months.)

But no change is likely because the JSS is serving its purpose as a marketing tool to make clients happy. Freelancers should want clients to be happy and never forget the JSS system is not intended to be a useful feedback mechanism for freelancers. Useful feedback is clear and transparent, neither of which applies to the hidden key elements of the JSS.

Tonya P · ‎05-14-2019

Will L wrote:
It makes sense that higher-value, more complex projects should carry a greater proportional weight than lower-priced projects for a freelancer's JSS calculation.

If one contract accounts for 40% of a freelancer's revenue over the past year and another accounts for 4%, it makes no sense that both carry the same weight in calculating the freelancer's JSS.

This sort of weighting would likely be a more useful input for the JSS than the "long-term customers" measure we’re told is currently being used in calculating the JSS because total contract time for many projects doesn't reflect how much work by the freelancer was required on the project. (I recently asked some idle clients to close their projects with me if no further work was required. One involved a little over seven hours of work over nearly two months. Another was a paused project, on which I worked a total of about 15 hours over eight months.)

But no change is likely because the JSS is serving its purpose as a marketing tool to make clients happy. Freelancers should want clients to be happy and never forget the JSS system is not intended to be a useful feedback mechanism for freelancers. Useful feedback is clear and transparent, neither of which applies to the hidden key elements of the JSS.

You aren't implying that a 2-month contract or a contract that remained idle but for which payments hadn't been received for 15 months are counted as long-term contracts are you? That would be a bit misleading. I believe the minimum qualifications for a long-term contract are 3 months and regular payments. If I understand the process correctly, a contract for which a payment was received in month 2 which remained open with no additional payments for 13 additional months, for example, would not qualify as long-term.

Will L · ‎05-14-2019

Well, Tonya, what you say may, or may not, be true.

But I have seen no information from Upwork that states, "...the minimum qualifications for a long-term contract are 3 months and regular payments. If I understand the process correctly, a contract for which a payment was received in month 2 which remained open with no additional payments for 13 additional months, for example, would not qualify as long-term."

What is "regular"? - Once a month, once a quarter, something else? I have never had a contract stay idle for 13 months and would always ask, as I just did recently, that clients close their projects that have been idle for only a couple of months. Most clients do so without question; some admit they had no idea they needed to close their completed projects on Upwork. Reminding them is part of what a freelancer has to do - clients have much less reason to understand Upwork's many rules, protocols, quirks, etc. than freelancers have.

Some posters here tell us they know much more about many elements of how Upwork works than Upwork has stated publicly, so, for most of us, this sort of thing is just another blacked-out window in the edifice that is Upwork. We can't see in.

Petra R · ‎05-14-2019

Will L wrote:

Some posters here tell us they know much more about many elements of how Upwork works than Upwork has stated publicly,

Not that again.

You keep repeating that lie over and over hoping that someone out there will take it as anything other than the malicious claptrap that it is.

"Some posters" repeatedly show you where Upwork has publicly stated what you claim is not publicly stated, or patiently explain why certain conclusions are obvious, but that does not fit into your obsessive stance that the JSS is so opaque that nobody could possibly understand how any of it is calculated, which you spew all over post after post whether the post has anything to do with the JSS at all or not. It is not "some posters" fault that you don't understand how the JSS works and are either unable or unwilling to read and comprehend the information that is available.

Enough already.

Will L · ‎05-14-2019

Petra,

You have posted clearly incorrect information often enough that I take much of what you claim to know with a grain of salt. That doesn't mean most of what you post isn't useful.

Keep up the good work.

Will L · ‎05-14-2019

Petra,

You have posted clearly incorrect information often enough that I take much of what you claim to know with a grain of salt.

That doesn't mean most of what you post isn't useful.

Keep up the good work.

Petra R · ‎05-14-2019

Will L wrote:

You have posted clearly incorrect information often enough that I take much of what you claim to know with a grain of salt.

1) I have? "Often enough?" Without instantly correcting myself when I make a mistake? For example? LOL - wow. You really do have a deep-seated problem, don't you?

2) What does that have to do with your constantly repeated lie that "some people claim to know stuff that is not publicly available?"

I know of no person who has ever made any such claim.