Should Upwork Change the Feedback System?

[joansands]

The biggest problem I have with Upwork is the feedback system. I would like to see them change it. My suggestions are to do away with private feedback and also do away with the 1 to 5 rating system. Both clients and freelancers could be allowed to leave written feedback that could be seen on both sides but with no numbers, which are sort of meaningless anyway. Does anyone have additional suggestions?

[lysis10]

Without numbers, they wouldn't be able to rank/rate freelancers in their algorithms, so that's not possible.

Like I said in my other post, private feedback was introduced because freelancers harass clients to change bad star feedback. 

[joansands]

Jennifer - I have read over and over that the JSS rankings take into account many different aspects, although they don't actually say what, so I have assumed that it is not just based on the numbers. Apparently, the fact that people are getting paid has something to do with the rankings. There must be some way to create a better feedback system. I know that I have read over and over that private feedback was created because freelancers were harassing clients over public feedback. I know also that this is heretical - but maybe freelancers should not be ranked. Maybe they should just have a list of the jobs they have done with written feedback.

[lysis10]

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Joan S wrote:

Jennifer - I have read over and over that the JSS rankings take into account many different aspects, although they don't actually say what, so I have assumed that it is not just based on the numbers. Apparently, the fact that people are getting paid has something to do with the rankings. There must be some way to create a better feedback system. I know that I have read over and over that private feedback was created because freelancers were harassing clients over public feedback. I know also that this is heretical - but maybe freelancers should not be ranked. Maybe they should just have a list of the jobs they have done with written feedback.

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Yeah, that's not possible. There would be no way for clients to separate the wheat from the chaff from a simple search.

[joansands]

Well, Jennifer, maybe you are right - but, right now, many clients are limited to choosing 3 people to send an invite to - so they are having to separate a lot of wheat. It would seem that maybe Upwork wants more freelancers to make proposals instead of getting invitations. In that case, the client has to check out at least some of the proposals. One of my clients told me her way of ranking is to start out with the lowest bid and work her way up until she finds the person she wants. 

[lysis10]

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Joan S wrote:

Well, Jennifer, maybe you are right - but, right now, many clients are limited to choosing 3 people to send an invite to - so they are having to separate a lot of wheat. It would seem that maybe Upwork wants more freelancers to make proposals instead of getting invitations. In that case, the client has to check out at least some of the proposals. One of my clients told me her way of ranking is to start out with the lowest bid and work her way up until she finds the person she wants. 

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I don't agree with them charging clients a monthly fee. I'm not hugely against the $30 one-time fee but I think there should be incentive to hire by giving them a credit on that money if they hire and pay out to a freelancer. But if there is one thing I've learned from Upwork, it's they have to learn the hard way if it's a bad decision. They don't really understand how their own clients/freelancers work together. It's evident by thinking that giving clients freelancer management tools is something clients would be interested in when most clients use trusted PM tools. Upwork has too many bugs and issues for anyone to rely on it when they can just use Trello and Slack (for example).

$50/month is ridiculous though. Maybe I'm just lucky, but several clients of mine fall into the 5 figure contract limit with me (some faster than others) but they don't post a ton of jobs on Upwork to excuse the $50/month charge. I wish they would push the $30 one-time charge more, because I don't think that's anywhere near as bad. But eh, again this is just ranting into the void to make myself feel better about this junk.

[researchediting]

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Joan S wrote:

....One of my clients told me her way of ranking is to start out with the lowest bid and work her way up until she finds the person she wants. 

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Presumably you have reasons to keep such a client. I would run screaming into the night.

[versailles]

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Joan S wrote:

but maybe freelancers should not be ranked. Maybe they should just have a list of the jobs they have done with written feedback.

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I hire at times here and without the JSS and the feedback system, I would go someplace else to hire. In a perfect world, ratings and ratings should not exist. In an imperfect world, they cannot be the only criterion taken into account when hiring freelancers on B2B platforms, but they provide valuable clues. A B2B platform in which you would have no ways of reading the feedback of past clients wouldn't inspire trust. It's overcrowded, as a client you have so many choices, so many people to pick from. You need to know if previous clients have been happy.

It is only when you use Upwork as a client that you realize how valuable the JSS and the rating system is.

[joansands]

I understand what you are saying, Rene. But I have not suggested doing away completely with feedback. I think it is important to have written feedback. What I don't like is when a client leaves 5 stars and then turns around and completely negates that with private feedback that the freelancer can't even see. It just seems unfair to me. In addition, some clients are just really very difficult to please.

[petra_r]

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Joan S wrote:

I understand what you are saying, Rene. But I have not suggested doing away completely with feedback. I think it is important to have written feedback. 

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Written feedback is meaningless and easily manipulated drivel.

The JSS is a hell of a lot less complicated than people try and make it out to be. If clients are really happy they leave positive private and public feedback. 

Other than feedback, the only thing that hurts your JSS are contracts that never lead to any earnings. That's just about it. It is not rocket science and frankly I think the majority of times a freelancer with an ounce of sensitivity and the ability to read client reactions right, KNOWS when something did not go as well as it possibly could have done.

Sure, there is the occasional "What the hell was that for?" client reaction, but in general, imperfect as it may be, the current system works for the purpose it was designed for.

[michelle-trevino]

I guess since the only two times I ever received negative feedback was due to my refusal to do free work, I don't take the JSS seriously. Anything that can be abused, will be.

[joansands]

OK - I still think private feedback is unfair - but I am going to shut up.

[lysis10]

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Joan S wrote:

OK - I still think private feedback is unfair - but I am going to shut up.

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The sad truth is that people that make good money here are the outliers, so we have to deal with the stupid trash Upwork lets in and the rules that cater to that trash. Private feedback is a perfect example. Increased fees and paid connects are another.  It makes me rage in many ways but I just vent in private to other freelancers because Upwork I don't think really cares about the trash and the frauds that much if they get some money out of them.

[dzadza]

I would get rid of the public (stars) feedback - it's totally useless. Clients give 5 stars to freelancers to avoid being harassed (that apparently happens way too often), so upwork introduced private feedback where some clients can vent their frustration because they have to be nice in public feedback, lol however, I think upwork should fix video chat issue, fix counter on the stats page - or get rid of it, remove those idiotic emojis from people's profiles, get rid of fake freelancer profiles... I'm not asking much 😉

[versailles]

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Joan S wrote:

OK - I still think private feedback is unfair - but I am going to shut up.

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I'm genuinely interested in any alternatives that would not bring back the issues the private feedback is addressing, namely the public feedback manipulation. Not that I like the private feedback thing, even though I agree with Petra that one can generally see a bad private feedback coming. I would want to get rid of it. But I can't come with an acceptable alternative since simply removing it would put all the weight on the public feedback, and we would see people harassing clients for positive feedback. Well, we see this happening actually, but at least clients can leave a private feedback.

[petra_r]

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Joan S wrote:

OK - I still think private feedback is unfair -

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"Fair" is relative. Clients and freelancers being able to express how they feel without fear of repercussions may feel "unfair" to some, "fair" to others.

It is not an Upwork thing, it is common all over the Internet in one form or the other.

On ebay, for example, if your DSR (Detailed seller rating, which is private falls below 4.6 (out of 10, or the equivalent of a 92% JSS) you might as well quit ebay.

Amazon is not far behind.

Are you familiar with the NPS (Net promoter score?)

"Private feedback" will not go away, ever.

Get used to it.

[dzadza]

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Petra R wrote:

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Joan S wrote:

I understand what you are saying, Rene. But I have not suggested doing away completely with feedback. I think it is important to have written feedback. 

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Written feedback is meaningless and easily manipulated drivel.

The JSS is a hell of a lot less complicated than people try and make it out to be. If clients are really happy they leave positive private and public feedback. 

Other than feedback, the only thing that hurts your JSS are contracts that never lead to any earnings. That's just about it. It is not rocket science and frankly I think the majority of times a freelancer with an ounce of sensitivity and the ability to read client reactions right, KNOWS when something did not go as well as it possibly could have done.

Sure, there is the occasional "What the hell was that for?" client reaction, but in general, imperfect as it may be, the current system works for the purpose it was designed for.

---

I had a really bad experience last year - one not super happy client  (4 stars and probably less  than stellar private feedback, lol) - but the real issue  was with two clients  (in one month)  who wanted logos for their newly established businesses.  Both awarded projects,  one  showed up months later to let me know that he found a "real job" and doesn't want to start a business, and the other one never showed up. I closed those contracts after a while by choosing the "client doesn't need the work anymore" That led to my JSS being 84%-86%. In the following 8 months, I got 3  job invites (super lousy ones - one of them was asking for free work and didn't land a single new contract . Good thing is - Upwork is not my main source of income. But still,   I don't believe it was my fault - sometimes these things happen. But here - it's freelancer that pays the price...

[joansands]

That's the problem, Sanja. It seems the whole feedback arrangement is skewed for the client. I have not been a member of Upwork for very long -

 I have had some really great clients and, unfortunately, some gruesome clients - and I am the one who has suffered. I keep telling myself that in time, if I persevere, the good will outweigh the bad. I am still paying for the third client. She was so unpleasant and so unreasonable that I refunded the pittance she had paid, not knowing anything about private feedback and that I would suffer because of a contract with no payment. I am still trying to recover from that but the six months thing is coming up.

[dzadza]

Joan,

it is - and quite a few of the clients are aware of that and taking advantage of it.
You shouldn't have refunded - because either way, the private feedback stays.  Hopefully, you'll get projects from your regular clients and that will help your JSS...
That's the difference between you and me - my clients don't come back, because if I did my job well - they will continue  to use  their logos and there's no need for them to hire me again.  And if I didn't do my job well - they'll come back here and hire someone else, lol. So - I don't really have returning clients to try and get my JSS back up.  Good thing for me was - at the time, we didnt have to pay for connects, and I was on premium plan -  so I applied for more jobs than usual...

[joansands]

Sanja - I know now that I should not have refunded but I didn't know that two weeks in to trying to work on Upwork. One lives and learns, hopefully. I certainly would not do that now. With the six months coming up in a couple of weeks, I will finally get away from her. Luckily, with the work I do, I do get clients coming back sometimes and I have a few regulars with continuing work. Upwork is not perfect, but it is far better than any other freelance site I looked into and I never would have found the good clients I have on my own. I am just going to keep plugging away and things do improve every month. I understand that Upwork needs their clients, because without the clients there would be no work, but I wish they would pay a little bit more attention to their freelancers.

[dzadza]

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Joan S wrote:

Sanja - I know now that I should not have refunded but I didn't know that two weeks in to trying to work on Upwork. One lives and learns, hopefully. I certainly would not do that now. With the six months coming up in a couple of weeks, I will finally get away from her. Luckily, with the work I do, I do get clients coming back sometimes and I have a few regulars with continuing work. Upwork is not perfect, but it is far better than any other freelance site I looked into and I never would have found the good clients I have on my own. I am just going to keep plugging away and things do improve every month. I understand that Upwork needs their clients, because without the clients there would be no work, but I wish they would pay a little bit more attention to their freelancers.

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since you're active on the forum,  I think you've figured that upwork doesn't really care about freelancer (nor it should - freelancers should care about freelancers 😉 ). no matter how good a suggestion is, how reasonable and easy to implement - it ain't gonna happen...
quite a few freelancers have complained about having idiotic emojis  slapped on their profiles -  and not a single freelancer liked them. now - that's super easy to remove - but upwork people seem to thikn that it adds value to our profiles...
not to mention other things that are simply not working here - and instead of fixing those issues, upwork introduces "new exciting fetures"  - that are either stupid, or don't work - or both...

[tlbp]

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Joan S wrote:

I understand what you are saying, Rene. But I have not suggested doing away completely with feedback. I think it is important to have written feedback. What I don't like is when a client leaves 5 stars and then turns around and completely negates that with private feedback that the freelancer can't even see. It just seems unfair to me. In addition, some clients are just really very difficult to please.

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 So then, perhaps the solution should be to do away with the public star rating and just use private feedback to calculate a freelancer's score. How is it unfair for the client to provide their opinion about the services they received? The real unfairness comes from clients feeling pressured to leave misleading public feedback. And, who decides whether a client is hard to please or a freelancer falls short? 

Numerical feedback scores are commonplace and are often used alongside NPS and written feedback. The combination of these formats gives potential customers a broader view than just using one. Why should Upwork provide prospective clients with less information? 

[joansands]

Well, Tonya, I am a believer in back and forth communication between a client and a freelancer, or between an employer and an employee. I don't believe in secretiveness and where people can be exploited.

[michelle-trevino · Accepted solution]

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Joan S wrote:

Well, Tonya, I am a believer in back and forth communication between a client and a freelancer, or between an employer and an employee. I don't believe in secretiveness and where people can be exploited.

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I agree. We should be adults and professionals here. Many places have feedback systems and they are abused and practically worthless. Look at Yelp, Facebook, or Google reviews. I've seen it all. I'd rather look at someone's portfolio or work history, talk to them, and maybe even try working with them and see if we are a good fit. Contracts can always be canceled. Even a person with a high JSS isn't going to get along with every client. 

[joansands]

I'm with you, Michelle. 

[lysis10]

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Michelle T wrote:

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Joan S wrote:

Well, Tonya, I am a believer in back and forth communication between a client and a freelancer, or between an employer and an employee. I don't believe in secretiveness and where people can be exploited.

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I agree. We should be adults and professionals here. Many places have feedback systems and they are abused and practically worthless. Look at Yelp, Facebook, or Google reviews. I've seen it all. I'd rather look at someone's portfolio or work history, talk to them, and maybe even try working with them and see if we are a good fit. Contracts can always be canceled. Even a person with a high JSS isn't going to get along with every client. 

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There are millions of freelancers here. you gonna read 12 million portfolios before you choose or would you like to have some kind of metric so you can just search for people? 

[joansands]

If you are looking for an editor, you would stick to that category. But you seem to assume that every potential client does a search. I think many just post a job and then wait to see who shows up.

[michelle-trevino]

Don't forget that people tend to not leave any feedback if they are happy with the results of a project. That's why you get so many freelancers asking if they should close the contract on their own. So it's the few unsatisfied clients (for whatever reason) who are always the most vocal. Anyone who's ever worked in customer support can tell you that. LOL ... This can unfairly skew your JSS so it's really why I don't take it seriously. 

[versailles]

When I read some of the comments here it reminds me how I felt before I started to use Upwork to hire.

When you need something done, when you will pay with your own money the person who will do it,  It gives you an entirely different perspective on Upwork and the freelancers who use it.

Man, from a client perspective I'm grateful to Upwork for the feedback system.

That being said, I do agree that communication is key and you can always try people out and close the contract whenever you want. This is why people with JSS < 90% still can get jobs.

[gilbert-phyllis]

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Joan S wrote:

If you are looking for an editor, you would stick to that category. But you seem to assume that every potential client does a search. I think many just post a job and then wait to see who shows up.

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I'd bet many clients--most, maybe--do a search to see what kid of talent is here before bothering to post a job. There are nearly 3,000 U.S. editors with native/bilingual English, hourly rate $10-30, active on the platform in the past month. Without quantitative metrics, that's an impossible slog.

[researchediting]

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Joan S wrote:

If you are looking for an editor, you would stick to that category. But you seem to assume that every potential client does a search. I think many just post a job and then wait to see who shows up.

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Historically and not uncommonly: say 50 people show up. Then what? As a hypothetical decent and serious client, I'm still likely to want the selection process to be as efficient and painless as possible. (Note to Upwork: Please do not read "efficient and painless" as "fast." Oh, wait. Too late.)

[cartrellgeneral]

I don't think it's much different from a brick and mortar employer reference. An employer may give you a nice review on paper but then when someone calls for a reference, they may say something different. I have seen that happen more than once. A person is given a decent review but when he/she leaves the company and uses his/her former supervisor as a reference that "excellent" review may be a "good" at best.

[michelle-trevino]

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Catherine M wrote:

I don't think it's much different from a brick and mortar employer reference. An employer may give you a nice review on paper but then when someone calls for a reference, they may something different. I have seen that happen more than once. A person is given a decent review but when they leave the company and use his/her former supervisor as a reference that "excellent" review may be a "good" at best.

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Yep, I can't tell you how many people looked great on paper but were truly different after being hired. You really don't know a person until you start working with them.

[joansands]

Catherine - That's called, in my opinion, being insincere and deceitful. 

[cartrellgeneral]

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Joan S wrote:

Catherine - That's called, in my opinion, being insincere and deceitful. 

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True, Joan, and that's the same thing that happens here on Upwork. No different.

[joansands]

Yes, Catherine - but that is what I would like to see change. People don't improve unless they understand how and why they need to. I believe in positive persuasion. It works with my dog (most of the time) and I believe it works with people.  

[lysis10]

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Joan S wrote:

Yes, Catherine - but that is what I would like to see change. People don't improve unless they understand how and why they need to. I believe in positive persuasion. It works with my dog (most of the time) and I believe it works with people.  

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Best thing to do to understand where everyone is coming from is to go post a job in the open marketplace and go through the hiring process. If you get 20 bids, 5 of them will be frauds, 5 of them will be "plz give me job sir," another 5-7 will be ok proposals but the skill set doesn't match and they don't have much in their portfolio, and then if you're lucky 3 will be interesting. One of those 3 will have stolen portfolio items and that leaves you 2 people who will actually be who they say they are and have a great portfolio. That's how bad it is.

Hire the cheap person from "you know where" and watch as they charge you 20 hours for a 2 hour job, flake out, and might even tell you to rate them 5 stars before you get the work. 

That's like... typical. That's why we are where we are. 

[joansands]

Jennifer - I am sure you are pretty spot on. Years ago I worked for an executive recruiting firm in New York and I learned a lot about what anyone goes through in order to find a good person for a job. There is no reason for me to think it would be any different at Upwork. I still believe in communication, though - even when people don't really get it right.

[gilbert-phyllis]

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Joan S wrote:

Catherine - That's called, in my opinion, being insincere and deceitful. 

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It can also be called avoiding difficult conversations and more people do it than don't. Especially when they don't have a long-term investment in a relationship. 

[tlbp]

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Joan S wrote:

Well, Tonya, I am a believer in back and forth communication between a client and a freelancer, or between an employer and an employee. I don't believe in secretiveness and where people can be exploited.

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I would propose that if a freelancer is surprised by their overall rating, then at some point they failed to communicate well with a client. That is not Upwork's fault, that is a conflict between the freelancer and the client. If I understand correctly, you believe Upwork should eliminate private feedback so that a client who is not willing to be forthcoming with their freelancer and directly communicate their dissatisfaction should be robbed of their voice. 

Would the client be any less dissatisfied with the work if they weren't permitted to leave private feedback? No. The only result would be that other clients would not be informed of that dissatisfaction. If a freelancer wants feedback for the purpose of improving. Then they can get that feedback by asking directly. Do the hard work of making that communication happen.

However, there is no lie detector test for clients that would allow Upwork to screen out clients who aren't willing to tell their freelancers how they really feel. Not everyone is willing to say, "Yes those pants make you look fat." But failing to say it doesn't make the pants fit any better.