Should Upwork Change the Feedback System?

[#1]

The biggest problem I have with Upwork is the feedback system. I would like to see them change it. My suggestions are to do away with private feedback and also do away with the 1 to 5 rating system. Both clients and freelancers could be allowed to leave written feedback that could be seen on both sides but with no numbers, which are sort of meaningless anyway. Does anyone have additional suggestions?

[#2]

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Michelle T wrote:

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Joan S wrote:

Well, Tonya, I am a believer in back and forth communication between a client and a freelancer, or between an employer and an employee. I don't believe in secretiveness and where people can be exploited.

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I agree. We should be adults and professionals here. Many places have feedback systems and they are abused and practically worthless. Look at Yelp, Facebook, or Google reviews. I've seen it all. I'd rather look at someone's portfolio or work history, talk to them, and maybe even try working with them and see if we are a good fit. Contracts can always be canceled. Even a person with a high JSS isn't going to get along with every client. 

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There are millions of freelancers here. you gonna read 12 million portfolios before you choose or would you like to have some kind of metric so you can just search for people? 

[#3]

If you are looking for an editor, you would stick to that category. But you seem to assume that every potential client does a search. I think many just post a job and then wait to see who shows up.

[#4]

Don't forget that people tend to not leave any feedback if they are happy with the results of a project. That's why you get so many freelancers asking if they should close the contract on their own. So it's the few unsatisfied clients (for whatever reason) who are always the most vocal. Anyone who's ever worked in customer support can tell you that. LOL ... This can unfairly skew your JSS so it's really why I don't take it seriously. 

[#5]

When I read some of the comments here it reminds me how I felt before I started to use Upwork to hire.

When you need something done, when you will pay with your own money the person who will do it,  It gives you an entirely different perspective on Upwork and the freelancers who use it.

Man, from a client perspective I'm grateful to Upwork for the feedback system.

That being said, I do agree that communication is key and you can always try people out and close the contract whenever you want. This is why people with JSS < 90% still can get jobs.

[#6]

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Joan S wrote:

If you are looking for an editor, you would stick to that category. But you seem to assume that every potential client does a search. I think many just post a job and then wait to see who shows up.

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I'd bet many clients--most, maybe--do a search to see what kid of talent is here before bothering to post a job. There are nearly 3,000 U.S. editors with native/bilingual English, hourly rate $10-30, active on the platform in the past month. Without quantitative metrics, that's an impossible slog.

[#7]

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Joan S wrote:

If you are looking for an editor, you would stick to that category. But you seem to assume that every potential client does a search. I think many just post a job and then wait to see who shows up.

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Historically and not uncommonly: say 50 people show up. Then what? As a hypothetical decent and serious client, I'm still likely to want the selection process to be as efficient and painless as possible. (Note to Upwork: Please do not read "efficient and painless" as "fast." Oh, wait. Too late.)

[#8]

I don't think it's much different from a brick and mortar employer reference. An employer may give you a nice review on paper but then when someone calls for a reference, they may say something different. I have seen that happen more than once. A person is given a decent review but when he/she leaves the company and uses his/her former supervisor as a reference that "excellent" review may be a "good" at best.

[#9]

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Catherine M wrote:

I don't think it's much different from a brick and mortar employer reference. An employer may give you a nice review on paper but then when someone calls for a reference, they may something different. I have seen that happen more than once. A person is given a decent review but when they leave the company and use his/her former supervisor as a reference that "excellent" review may be a "good" at best.

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Yep, I can't tell you how many people looked great on paper but were truly different after being hired. You really don't know a person until you start working with them.

[#10]

Catherine - That's called, in my opinion, being insincere and deceitful. 

[#11]

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Joan S wrote:

Catherine - That's called, in my opinion, being insincere and deceitful. 

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True, Joan, and that's the same thing that happens here on Upwork. No different.

[#12]

Yes, Catherine - but that is what I would like to see change. People don't improve unless they understand how and why they need to. I believe in positive persuasion. It works with my dog (most of the time) and I believe it works with people.  

[#13]

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Joan S wrote:

Yes, Catherine - but that is what I would like to see change. People don't improve unless they understand how and why they need to. I believe in positive persuasion. It works with my dog (most of the time) and I believe it works with people.  

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Best thing to do to understand where everyone is coming from is to go post a job in the open marketplace and go through the hiring process. If you get 20 bids, 5 of them will be frauds, 5 of them will be "plz give me job sir," another 5-7 will be ok proposals but the skill set doesn't match and they don't have much in their portfolio, and then if you're lucky 3 will be interesting. One of those 3 will have stolen portfolio items and that leaves you 2 people who will actually be who they say they are and have a great portfolio. That's how bad it is.

Hire the cheap person from "you know where" and watch as they charge you 20 hours for a 2 hour job, flake out, and might even tell you to rate them 5 stars before you get the work. 

That's like... typical. That's why we are where we are. 

[#14]

Jennifer - I am sure you are pretty spot on. Years ago I worked for an executive recruiting firm in New York and I learned a lot about what anyone goes through in order to find a good person for a job. There is no reason for me to think it would be any different at Upwork. I still believe in communication, though - even when people don't really get it right.

[#15]

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Joan S wrote:

Catherine - That's called, in my opinion, being insincere and deceitful. 

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It can also be called avoiding difficult conversations and more people do it than don't. Especially when they don't have a long-term investment in a relationship. 

[#16]

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Joan S wrote:

Well, Tonya, I am a believer in back and forth communication between a client and a freelancer, or between an employer and an employee. I don't believe in secretiveness and where people can be exploited.

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I would propose that if a freelancer is surprised by their overall rating, then at some point they failed to communicate well with a client. That is not Upwork's fault, that is a conflict between the freelancer and the client. If I understand correctly, you believe Upwork should eliminate private feedback so that a client who is not willing to be forthcoming with their freelancer and directly communicate their dissatisfaction should be robbed of their voice. 

Would the client be any less dissatisfied with the work if they weren't permitted to leave private feedback? No. The only result would be that other clients would not be informed of that dissatisfaction. If a freelancer wants feedback for the purpose of improving. Then they can get that feedback by asking directly. Do the hard work of making that communication happen.

However, there is no lie detector test for clients that would allow Upwork to screen out clients who aren't willing to tell their freelancers how they really feel. Not everyone is willing to say, "Yes those pants make you look fat." But failing to say it doesn't make the pants fit any better.  

[#17]

Tonya - It seems to me that a client who is not willing to communicate with their paid freelancer is actually robbing themselves of their voice. That has nothing to do with Upwork. It is work to lead. But communication is not a one-way street. Freelancers also need to communicate.

[#18]

I have had my frustrations with the JSS, however the more time I spend freelancing, the more I carefully consider who is a good fit for me. My batting average is improving, but it's not perfect.

The fact of the matter is, no system is perfect (just look at Yelp, or Angie's List), everything is subject to manipulation and abuse.  For a dark look at the future, check out the episode of Black Mirror "Nose Dive" starring Bryce Dallas Howard, we are not far from this future. 

I hope Upwork continues to provide clients with the necessary tools to effectively screen Freelancers they want to speak with and match them with jobs. For the most part, when I receive an invite, the job is appropriate, but the rate isn't always.   Maybe that is an area for improvement, revising how the proposals are structured to invite more discussion about jobs/rates vs. the current form we are given (milestone vs. hourly). I have my own approach in proposals, however I suspect not all clients read past my rate - even those that invite me.

Another option would be the opportunity for freelancers to send clients a survey, however I'm not a huge fan of survey's either.

I guess the bigger point is, most of this meaningless.  The JSS is a guide, and there is no question one below 90% can be tough, but it's not the only way to get work.  As someone who is also looking for full time work, it's not much easier on that side of the fence.  In my experience, people who are in a position to hire overwhelm themselves with too much data or information, and end up with decision paralysis. From what others have shared, it would seem this happens here occasionally. 

I don't see Upwork making any changes, so the best we can do is keep working to find clients who are a good match. 

[#19]

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Joan S wrote:

The biggest problem I have with Upwork is the feedback system. I would like to see them change it. My suggestions are to do away with private feedback and also do away with the 1 to 5 rating system. Both clients and freelancers could be allowed to leave written feedback that could be seen on both sides but with no numbers, which are sort of meaningless anyway. Does anyone have additional suggestions?

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Although I do agree the feedback system Upwork uses is outdated, I don't agree with your solution. 
What I mean, in particular, is that a 5 stars rating system just doesn't work. In a perfect world you should vote generically like this:

1. Very bad, job not completed you probably have to redo it with another freelancer
2. Bad, job completed but the quality is really lacking, still probably you have to redo it
3. Normal job, appropriate results, not astonishing, not bad at the point you have to redo it
4. Good job, communication skill, deadlines, money, all went better than expected, probably you'll work with the freelancer again
5. Incredibly good job, the FL completed the job ahead of schedule, gave suggestions, blahblah, you'll work with him/her again 100%

What happens in reality:

1. Bad/Really bad overlaps
2. Why should I use 2 if I can use 1, anyway it is bad?
3. There's no in between, either is bad (1) or either is good (4-5)
4. Let's say it was good, but not that really good as 5
5. Good job/perfect job overlaps

This is highly misleading, if you are familiar with Google Play Store's apps, anything below 4 is actually kinda bad/really bad (3.9 borderline case), anything above 4 is decent/good/really good. There's actually not that much distinction and the real votes you are gonna look at range from 4 to 5, instead from 1 to 5 that was meant to be. When I see a client with a score of 4, for example, I already start thinking that the client is not trustworthy and I have to think twice before sending a proposal. 4 or less is a no go zone for me, but if we compare it to a decimal scale it is 8 out of 10, it should be good enough.

[#20]

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Roberto S wrote:
....4 or less is a no go zone for me, but if we compare it to a decimal scale it is 8 out of 10, it should be good enough.

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Roberto, that was a superb/takedown breakdown of how people really use a 5-point rating scale.

Thinking of scales, it's worth pointing out again that, unlike say the "would recommend" metric, the JSS is not really a percentage. (Of what? "Success"? Give me a break.) It is an algorithmicially determined score on a 100-point scale.

It is a common and plausible belief here, that will never be confirmed by Upwork, that the JSS is based on the Net Promoter Score (NPS). I haven't looked up the NPS for a while, but I don't think it can be interpreted as a decimal/percentage. A score of 90 is likely the threshold for Top Rated because, if memory serves, that is the threshold for a "good" NPS.

[#21]

Douglas: Here is an interesting article from Forbes about the NPS - and it recommends not using it for individuals:  https://www.forbes.com/sites/shephyken/2016/12/03/how-effective-is-net-promoter-score-nps/#2488ea8a2...

[#22]

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Joan S wrote:

Douglas: Here is an interesting article from Forbes about the NPS - and it recommends not using it for individuals:  https://www.forbes.com/sites/shephyken/2016/12/03/how-effective-is-net-promoter-score-nps/#2488ea8a2...

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The article distinguishes between rating individual employees and rating a company based on one's overall experience. A freelancer is not an employee. In the context of capturing metrics to drive the JSS, from the client's perspective the freelancer is the company.

[#23]

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Phyllis G wrote:

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Joan S wrote:

Douglas: Here is an interesting article from Forbes about the NPS - and it recommends not using it for individuals:  https://www.forbes.com/sites/shephyken/2016/12/03/how-effective-is-net-promoter-score-nps/#2488ea8a2...

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The article distinguishes between rating individual employees and rating a company based on one's overall experience. A freelancer is not an employee. In the context of capturing metrics to drive the JSS, from the client's perspective the freelancer is the company.

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Exactly. To compare the two shows a fundamental lack of understanding the nature of running a business v being an employee.

I've just about had it with all the wailing where people insist that if they did not positively break their clients' business they deserve a 100% JSS.

Or "deserve" a lesson in how to do better next time.

Or that clients, who, after all, bring all (!!) the revenue except for the pittance for connects and memberships) should not have the chance to leave private feedback.

[#24]

Upwork obviously needs clients. Without them, there would be no Upwork. However, all kinds of clients could bring all kinds of work to Upwork but, if there are no freelancers willing to do that work, there would be no Upwork. So, obviously, Upwork needs both clients and freelancers. Upwork has tons of freelancers but they don't have tons of clients, so, Upwork appears to be more interested in caring for clients rather than freelancers and that is the basis of what is bothering so many freelancers. I think that either Upwork has to find more clients on a regular basis or they need to disentangle themselves from some freelancers.

[#25]

The definition of someone who freelances is to work for different companies at different times instead of being permanently employed by one company.

[#26]

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Roberto S wrote:

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1.  

 a client with a score of 4, for example, I already start thinking that the client is not trustworthy and I have to think twice before sending a proposal. 4 or less is a no go zone for me, but if we compare it to a decimal scale it is 8 out of 10, it should be good enough.

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An 80% in most schools in the U.S. is only a C grade. What if the client or freelancer doesn't just want good enough? I don't think it's a case of "it should be good enough." I'm sure you don't have a contractor come in and put down tile in your bathroom that isn't beautiful but it's good enough, not totally terrible so you figure you should be happy about it. You probably want a little more than ordinary and not-very-bad, you know? 🙂

That's how I see it, anyway. Likewise, I feel most clients I've worked with have wanted much more than "good enough." Most people in general do. Just my $0.02. 🙂