why upwork going worst day by day ? | payment reveresed chargeback , not secure freelancers

[raj0kumar00rk]

Now I notice that Upwork going to worst day by day.

today I got the notification for the reverse payment and chargeback and the contract was closed prox 50days ago with 5 stars and good feedback.

1. why do we use Upwork if someone hires freelancers and reverses all payments after 1 or 2 months and repeat this loop again and again with a new account? ( so basically we will work for free? )

2 . I added all proof of work and chats but even after 6 hours no reply from the Upwork support team ( looks like it's normal for Upwork, why Upwork employee is too lazy and not guiding me on what I can do ?)

3. I notice that Upwork saying contact your client and ask for a discussion (since the client is doing scam and why Upwork is thinking he/she will come for a discussion ? ) 

4.  I notice that upwork in mention rebuttal and I don't know what is this.

5. why does upwork have 7 day processing time if anytime upwork can reverse the payment?

6. who will give compensation for my time and afford after chargeback(payment reversed )?

( upwork you are totally responsible for this you can't just run away )

*Edited for Community Guidelines**

[the-right-writer]

Upwork has problems they can fix. This isn't one of them. Let it go.

[martina_plaschka]

Let's say you have an apartment to rent. You agree on a monthly payment to be sent to your bank account. Your renter does not pay the rent. Do you rant and scream at the bank for not giving you your money? Or do you address it with the renter? 

This is the same thing. Upwork isn't at fault when the client decided to not pay you. You need to take it up with the client. 

[84798706]

Martina thats exactly his point. He can't take it up with client because client came through Upwork and is managed by Upwork.

I think you are all forgetting the main point that why people, both clients and freelancers, use Upwork. That is security of payment protection and protection from scams like this one and others. If Upwork can't ensure that, what would be the point?

[the-right-writer]

"He can't take it up with client because client came through Upwork and is managed by Upwork."

No, that is not true. Upwork does not prevent the freelancer and client from trying to come to an agreement. In fact, if you go to a dispute, you are encouraged to work things out. Upwork isn't managing the situation; the bank is doing that.

"That is security of payment protection and protection from scams like this one and others. If Upwork can't ensure that, what would be the point?"

Upwork does not say anything about saving freelancers or clients from scams. In the vast majority of cases, the freelancer breaks the Terms of Service by going off the platform. Yes, they have statements talking about security in vague comments. However, when you read all those comments, specific things in the Terms of Service must be followed, or Upwork will do nothing.

The problem with chargebacks lies with the bank. The businesses are not going to do much, nor can they do much, unless they change the way they operate. That isn't going to happen. The banks are the "bad guy" in the scenario. They hold the power because of the way the laws are written and the unwillingness of businesses to step up and refuse to accept this as the status quo.

The point is this is a freelancer platform for getting jobs. No one anywhere will guarantee they give their money in a chargeback. There is no money in a chargeback because the owner of the stolen will not pay the freelancer. The fees paid are not for your security. The money Upwork gets is used for their advertising, etc. If you are not prepared to use the platform, responsibilities included, then do not use this platform. Upwork is not changing their operating plan.

[raj0kumar00rk]

Jeanne if upwork is taking 20% only for advertising, etc then why is upwork taking 5% fees on direct contract?

since direct contracts do not come under advertising.

[sullivanliz]

You realise running the platform costs money, right? It's not just advertising that needs paying for.

[the-right-writer]

This will be my last response because we are not getting anywhere in this conversation. You have opinions that do not work with online freelancing and refuse to accept the rules. I don't understand why you are spending so much time in the forum and not trying to learn how the platform works, your responsibilities, and the Terms of Service.

I didn't think I needed to spell out what should be evident with the etc. There are costs associated with the platform. There are costs for the equipment, Internet, staff, advertising, and every other cost of running the largest job-client platform on the Internet. I do not have a cost breakdown of all the costs and where they fall. The platform functions off of fees from freelancers for connects, memberships, and jobs. The 20% changes to 10% and then 5% depending on how much the contract is for when established.  

[84798706]

Clients can just ghost or not respond at all. If Upwork does nothing, there is nothing forcing them to do anything. If Upwork block any client's account, do you seriously believe it would be same as that of freelancer's?

[the-right-writer]

As you said, there is nothing forcing Upwork to do anything about chargebacks.

[84798706]

Yes but there should be; at the very least ethically or morally.

[the-right-writer]

If you are looking for a business with high standards that act ethically, morally, or both, you will find few, and probably none, in big business. With banks, I would say none. The people in charge are focused solely on making money. Ethics and morality are not on the meeting agendas.

Ideally, the people who make major decisions that impact everyone should be good people who have ethics and values and stand by them. Unless a miracle occurs and everyone is suddenly compassionate and caring and not driven for all the money, it will never happen.

I believe everyone should hold high standards and be ethical in every phase of their life, and I strive for that. Unfortunately, I do not see the world changing quickly, but that doesn't mean people should stop trying to make the world a better place for all.

[84798706]

It's true what you are saying unfortunately. But, all of freelancers here can raise a voice together against it and, maybe, it would make Upwork do something about it.

[yofazza]

Upwork has no power against the chargeback system. It's not logical to tell them to do something they can't do. Even if Upwork is a bank, it'll be banned by other banks if it deny chargeback requests.

What you can do:

1. Make sure the client is really happy, not just pretend to be happy.
2. If they still file a chageback you can try to take back your work, let the client's family/coworker know about it, or let go.

[foxstudio]

This example does not fit here. In this case, Upwork is the guarantor. Why does it charge 10 percent if it cannot guarantee payment protection.

[yofazza]

That particular example might not fit. There's more to it than just a 'legitimate client who doesn't pay'.

The 'guarantor' will (most likely) pay the protection if it's a legitimate client. But in cases where the client itself is a credit card thief, the "involved in a fraud" clause is used although debatable. Victim (the freelancer) is not the same with an 'accomplice'.

Rubber terms, legitimate clients who don't pay can also be considered fraudulent, but Upwork (most likely) will cover for that.

This have been discussed for years.

[tlsanders]

Upwork guarantees what it represents in the TOS it will do. The TOS are clear on the issue of chargebacks. 

They are not charging 10% for payment protection. They are charging 10% for whatever payment protection applies in your case plus the infrastructure, payment processing, customer service and--mostly--access to the clients they have drawn to the site through a massive investment in marketing. If you don't think this last bit is important, consider that they have scaled back their marketing investment in recent months; it seems like the impact on the job postings is quite clear. 

[tomzilla1]

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Raj K wrote:

we should fight against this parcility if upwork take 20% from each project . they are totally responsible for cover the losses.

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You get your 20% back because it's like this payment never even happened.

[raj0kumar00rk]

but at the freelancer is in loss. why  they are not doing something to prevent illigal job contract.

[b11f25a0]

Totally agree! It happened to me also.

[sabrina_tabassum]

Same thing happened to me. $4000 returned while it was pending clearing and another $1000 is requested back from me. Now waiting for banks decision which they claim will take 90 days. You arenot alone, this has become a norm (from what I found on internet) here on Upwork. This is so frustrating. What was your outcome on the rebuttal? 

[raj0kumar00rk]

yes. it just like

your profit is my profit and your loss is your loss.

[raj0kumar00rk]

guys, finally upwork submit the rebuttal after 24 hours then I received a refund notifiction. ( I don't know what is this but upwork called rebuttal ).

but they failed to provide any document that shows upwork really submitted the rebuttal( I don't know if they really submitted or just lying ).

I will update you soon.

[jessetate]

Hey did you ever figure this out? I seem to be in a similar situation now. I met all the parameters to the max of my ability (high activity, memos, hourly recorded, screenshots etc) but they say the client refused to pay, which makes it fraud. So it was a completely legit contract when it started. The client was verified and had paid thousands on upwork already. Then when the invoice came at the end of the week the account was suddenly suspended. They told me the client had refused the payment, which made it fraudulent, which means it didn't meet TOS (retrospectively I guess?) even at the time the contract was started?

I dissected their TOS, highlighted sections, made actual legal arguments, and they responded with almost the exact same email as the first notification email they had sent. Only a few words were changed. No actual arguments were made. They just said "Thanks for giving us a chance to better explain our TOS" at the beginning and then at the end they said "please note we will likely not respond, blah blah blah, this ticket will be closed"

That was essentially the only change from the original notice. I guess there's an argument that 'if you're involved in fraudulent activity' they simply can't do anything? I understand the impossible loss situation of chargebacks, businesses, clients, banks, etc.  But it's my impression that's precisely what payment protection ought to MOST protect against? What other scenarios would it protect against? Cases in which the freelancer actually did unsatisfactory work? Cases in which the client is good faith, but simply having credit card issues? Cases in which the work somehow gets lost? It's difficult to imagine a scenario in which Upwork has to cover payment for any real reason. I actually asked them to please give some examples of cases in which payment protection would be applied, and they didn't.

They didn't respond to anything. I asked to speak to someone on the phone, to at least keep the ticket open, to confirm that the client was verified (and thus the bank should be contactable) and they just acknowledged he was verified but still nothing.

I know they have a massive platform to run and I'm sure I can't imagine all the ins and outs of it. Supposedly they need all the money they've been raking in. But the last 3-4 years it's just been a constant increase in things they charge for, an ever more inefficient interface, and endless growth in scams. This is the first time I've needed to ask for payment protection in 8 years and they hardly even acknowledged my ticket before closing it.

Any tips? What exactly is the rebuttal process?

[yofazza]

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Jesse T wrote:

Any tips? What exactly is the rebuttal process?

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It's when Upwork said that they will try to 'cancel' the chargeback process by providing details to the bank that the freelancer really did some work. It has never worked, as far as I know.

Everything else you wrote is not new. There are a few recent threads discussing it (bad payment protection) right now, and the discussion has been going on for at least a year. Some people get the protection, some don't, like a bad insurance company. Some people who get the protection will testify in Upwork's favor, like a pyramid scheme. That's how I see it.

[feed_my_eyes]

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Radia L wrote:

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Jesse T wrote:

Any tips? What exactly is the rebuttal process?

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It's when Upwork said that they will try to 'cancel' the chargeback process by providing details to the bank that the freelancer really did some work. It has never worked, as far as I know.

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It has worked on at least three occasions that I've read about in the forum. (It's probably worked a lot more times than that, but people tend to only come here to complain, not to say, "I'm really happy that Upwork solved my problem.") But in this case, it wasn't a chargeback, it was an hourly contract and the client refused to pay. If Upwork was never able to charge the client in the first place - i.e. there was no money in escrow - then there's nothing to fight back against. 

Why this doesn't qualify for payment protection is another matter. If Upwork has changed their policies, then they should make an announcement and update their help pages. 

[bb60dd70 · Accepted solution]

Upwork should start ID verification from the clients just like they do with us. We also need surety that these clients are whom they say they are. I believe most of these chargebacks are happening because of stolen credit cards. They just create a new account with the matching name on the cards and voila. I lost $500 because of these chargeback scams within the previous two months.

[tomzilla1]

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Muhammad Zuhaib Z wrote:

Upwork should start ID verification from the clients just like they do with us. We also need surety that these clients are whom they say they are. I believe most of these chargebacks are happening because of stolen credit cards. They just create a new account with the matching name on the cards and voila. I lost $500 because of these chargeback scams within the previous two months.

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They can't ID the clients the way they do with freelancers. Each level of verification decreases client sign up rate. So their strategy is to keep that at a minimum, which is an excellent strategy until this happens. It's an excellent strategy for volume, not quality. This is why you're observing this issue. The more things you require someone to provide, the more quality because low quality people would've left at step 2. They're in a tough spot because most shareholders only care about number of users. Shareholders don't really care nor understand because they do not use Upwork.

[raj0kumar00rk]

when I asked question upwork support team closed ticket without any information (be carefully when you ask they will close your ticket). **Edited for Community Guidelines**

[stevenind]

I also experienced what my friends just felt. I've finished the work, then got 5 stars. but I'm facing the same problem.

[PradeepH]

Hi Steven,

Thank you for reaching out. I can see that you've already raised a support ticket regarding your concern. You can access your support tickets here . Note that support requests are responded to in the order they are received. Kindly allow 24-48 hours for the team to follow up with you and assist you further.

Thank you,

Pradeep

[raj0kumar00rk]

A ticket is nothing but just wasting of time. Steven s , just leave it. Upwork will do nothing.