Beware clients: time tracker is over charging you... like crazy!

[#1]

Ok... so this is what happened. I just started my first hourly contract on Upwork (I just migrated here from Elance) so it was my first time using the tracker.

Yesterday I could see that on the real time tracker (the top part) it showed 5 minutes but below (total time for the day) it already showed 20 minutes. And believe me, I was very aware I had started 5 minutes ago...

Today I started working and I had been working for 29 minutes, when it already showed 40. So I contacted customer support. Their answer is that it charges in 10 minutes blocks, which would make sense... but there is a trick.

If you start at 11:59... you would believe it will charge another 10 minutes at: 12:09... but it doesn't! It does not track 10 minutes blocks in real time. It takes 10 minutes blocks by the clock... but this I mean:

If you start at 11:59 it already charges you 10 minutes for the block corresponding to 11:50 to 12 PM. And if you click Stop at 12:01 it charges you another 10 minutes for the block corresponding to 12:00 to 12:10... so you end up paying for 20 minutes instead of 3.

Now imagine if that happens 3 times in a day, you are already paying 1 extra hour. Now what if some one does that (not necessarily on purpose) more than 3 times a day? Which is possible...

After a long discussion, this is customer service's conclusion (literal): "It shouldn't be a big different in the time."

For you!! Because you don't have to pay for it. Imagine what this means for freelancers with the highest hourly rates!!

Also multipy this for every freelancer in the platform, working around the globe, 24/7.... it's a lot of money!!! that goes to automatic payment!

Needless to say: I have never and I'll never over-charge a client, so I'll talk to him about not using the tracker... But this is crazy!!! I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry....

[#2]

Sigh"...you know, when you start a thread like this one....be sure of ALL your facts first....

[#3]

Irene,

Please enlighten me. Since after all the comments, which I appreciate them all and respect everyones opinion, I still think the tracker in inaccurate and obsolete. Specially considering is 2015 and most trackers track real time and there are many reasons for that, that's not an opinion, that's a fact.

But since you think you can be condescending and "sigh" Please tell us, what are those facts? Of course you can share your opinion on how it should be used and how the data should be interpreted, but you're mentioning facts, so please from the development and calculation point of view explain me the facts so I can change my mind and I'll gladly admit you're right.

[#4]

What I meant by "the client can tell" is that if you work five minutes out of a ten minute block, it will show that you were inactive half the time. If this happens frequently, there will be many blocks with low levels of activity. It's up to the client to decide whether they want to make an issue of it.

You also don't have to wait until the end of the week to review your work diary. You can go back and check it whenever you want to. You can stop in the middle of your task to check it and make changes.

[#5]

Low level of activity is subjective. Also, Solange, I don't understand about Skype. Are you using Skype with your clients? If so, why are you using the tracker in the first place? You should be charging manual time and your client should be paying for your time on Skype.

[#6]

Hi Marcia,

Thank you for clarifying further what low activity implies. Yes, I use Skype, and the phone line in Skype + many chat tools since I'm in constant contact with the clients and messaging through the system is not always the most practical solution for the client. So I adapt to what's best for them.

Like I mentioned I have clients on Elance, on Upwork, on a third platform and outside the platform. So I know that with X client is one tracker, with another the tracker on Teamwork, with another one Harvest and so on. I have all the trackers at hand, so depending what I'm working on or who is calling, etc. I just turn to the respective tracker... That is what I always did on Elance and I never had to worried about anything else. 

Now I have to use the tracker + check what's tracking and clean the screen shots if necessary + track time on other tool to then go back and load the time manually... Like I said, it might be easier if you work on another area or you usually work on one project at a time. It's not practical at all for what I do. And definitely not a good alternative for my client since like I mentioned, this is the first time I use this tracker, so if I hadn't paid attention and for some reason I close the week today (lets suppose the contract is over) my client would be paying 1;10 extra. It does not matter whether one hour is on dollar or 100 dollars.... is unnecesarily inaccurate.

Thanks!

[#7]

Solange,

You seem to be way over thinking the time tracker. If it does not work for you, discuss it with your client and find an alternative. When I first started using it I didn't feel I should be charging a client for how slow I was at some things. I just turned the tracker off and continued working.

If I think the tracker has shorted me (as I keep good track of my hours) I let the client know and add manual time. Really, checking your screenshots should be something everyone does on a regular basis if they are using the tracker. As far as extra time or steps, it really doesn't take but a few minutes to check it.

I leave a window open when I am working that is Upwork. I can check my screenshots on a regular basis. It is easy enough to stop the tracker if you are doing something else and start it again.

I have worked with it for 3 years and really have not found that I am over charging or have been undercharged, except on one occassion and Odesk at the time was  having some issues. It was easy enough to remedy. I talked to my client and added manual time.

As far as what I commented on about the tracker stops tracking if you are inactive for any length of time, you do need to have some activity in the 10 minutes periods or it stops period until you are active again. I do calls and other activity which are low activity. My client has never questioned it because he knows I am not going to be always typing or doing something on the computer. Many times a call can run into 30 minutes or more. I just make sure when I am working I move the mouse or enter something when I am on a call and make sure I note the call int he tracker.

If the tracker doesn't work for you, talk to your client about fixed rate or manually entering your hours.

[#8]

"Billing by the minute would be ideal". No. No it wouldn't. In the "real world" I charge by the hour or by the day. Clients don't freak out if I get a glass of water, go to the bathroom or have lunch. They know they are getting value for money and they know they are paying a person, not a robot.

[#9]

Yes, Marcia, those are all valid points. I agree with you as pertaining to your situation. But it is common for me to only work 2 or 3 minutes in a day for a client.

It would be helpful to me to be able to accurately log time and bill by the minute, even if that doesn't apply to everyone.

[#10]

I have had this issue as well with the time tracker. As a freelancer, I always start work at the beginning of an interval to avoid these situations and when I finish I make sure the time tracker has taken the screenshot before I log out.

As a client I have had to pay also for intervals with just 1 minute on them because the freelancer started at XX:59 instead of the beginning of the interval.

[#11]

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@Preston H wrote:

Yes, Marcia, those are all valid points. I agree with you as pertaining to your situation. But it is common for me to only work 2 or 3 minutes in a day for a client.

It would be helpful to me to be able to accurately log time and bill by the minute, even if that doesn't apply to everyone.

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 And it isn't right to charge a client for 10 minutes, when you only work 1 or 2. If that only happened once per job, it wouldn't be a big deal. But across a week, a client would get charged 56 minutes when only 14 minutes or so were worked. In other words, on long term jobs, it makes a huge difference to the client.

[#12]

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@Cathleen C wrote:

And it isn't right to charge a client for 10 minutes, when you only work 1 or 2.

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It isn't an issue of "right", but what is a common business practice.  Off Upwork, I often bill in 15 minute increments, and that's usually for a long-term contract.  For new clients, or for "emergency" issues, I often bill with a 1 hour minimum.  Upwork has a 10 minute minimum.  It's not a secret.  Clients and freelancers need to deal with it.

[#13]

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@Darrin O wrote:

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@Cathleen C wrote:

And it isn't right to charge a client for 10 minutes, when you only work 1 or 2.

---

It isn't an issue of "right", but what is a common business practice.  Off Upwork, I often bill in 15 minute increments, and that's usually for a long-term contract.  For new clients, or for "emergency" issues, I often bill with a 1 hour minimum.  Upwork has a 10 minute minimum.  It's not a secret.  Clients and freelancers need to deal with it.

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Off upwork, i, too charge in 15 min. Increments. Believe it or not, i know it is a common business practice. 😉 we arent talking about jobs off platform. We are talking about a tool upwork provides to validate time worked to clients so it can protect both clients and freelancers.

Preston makes valid points on why the tracker should keep track of time in minutes and if that is the work ethic and business practice he chooses to use, upwork shouldnt be forcing anything different. And no, i dont believe it is "right" for upwork to automatically decide what i bill clients. And yes, i am "dealing" with it, though not because you have told me i need to. I just won't work hourly jobs, IF i even decide to work on upwork at all.

And this is but one of the reasons i havent made up my mind. Upwork is here to connect freelancers and clients, period. Not dictate their business practices.

The time tracker is a good tool upwork provides, but it should track minutes, not blocks.

[#14]

Off Upwork, I round to the nearest hour, if I'm not charging a day rate. I wouldn't think of billing a corporate client for 10 minutes of work, and they wouldn't think of asking me to prove that I worked 60 rather than 50 minutes. Time is money, and when you waste time and resources nitpicking over small amounts, you are being penny wise and dollar foolish.

Preston, if I had a job where I did work in tiny increments (an editing job, perhaps), I would just add up the increments and have the total paid as a bonus. I wouldn't bother with the tracker at all.

Although, to be honest, if a client kept interrupting me with two-minute tasks, I would probably have a talk with them and ask them to send me a list. 

[#15]

I swear freelancers have this extra special ability to kick themselves in the face.

So, instead of sitting back and thinking "hmm it's not likely that Upwork is scamming all these people and it hasn't been news yet, so there is something I'm missing. Maybe I should ask why it works this way?" OP thinks it's a great idea to tell clients that Upwork is overcharging them, because that's gonna make her more money? Attract customers? She can champion people leaving the platform so she loses money?

I just don't even have enough facepalms for this.

Oh, and I charge by 30 minute increments although I'll do 10-15 for longterm customers if I really did spend like 5 minutes on something.

No professional charges by the minute, which probably has more to say about the OP than Upwork. 

[#16]

To put things into context with a real-world example:

Most of the time when I work for a client, it is in blocks of many hours at a time. I really have no complaint about how the time-tracking software works when I work for long periods of time.

But sometimes I get an email message from a client whose project I'm not actively working on.

They might ask a question about a project I did for them, or they might request a small change.

If they have multiple questions or multiple change requests, then this might take ten, twenty, thirty minutes.

But sometimes it really only takes five minutes or less.

It is important to me to bill time, because it DOES take time for me to help them out with their questions or requests. I want them to see time billed on their client-side interface, so that it is clear that I can't just do stuff for them at any time they want for free. But I would also prefer that the time logged reflect the time spent.

There ARE work-arounds, such as using manual time to reflect a block of time once one has worked for about ten total minutes, maybe for 2 or 3 tasks.

But if I could have Upwork's time-tracker work they way I would prefer it to, then I would want it to be able to track and bill time by the minute rather than in ten-minute increments, even if it did not always have screenshots associated with some blocks of time.

[#17]

Glad I got to your comment Jennifer cuz my brain was going to melt.. .

You just made my day

'I swear freelancers have this extra special ability to kick themselves in the face.'

I think Nichola will love that I've revived my use of color in the forum.

[#18]

I first had a sinking feeling in my stomach when I saw that the Upwork platform is using silly, made-up words - instead of standard English.  For example, 'RECENCY'.  

Then there are the emails from Ivo who claims to be an Upwork employee, but has very poor spelling and grammar (see Ivo emails on community discussions) - so the people running Upwork already seemed pretty suspicious to me.  I even emailed to ask where they were registered and worked from, as I felt I was not dealing with professional U.S. people.

You would expect that literacy and standard U. S. English would be a feature of any professional business, especially when so many of the freelancers who use Elance speak English as a second language and cannot be expected to understand words invented 'on the spot' by illiterate Upwork staff.

Now I read this helpful post warning us of the dishonest practice of over-charging hourly-rate clients, by selling freelancer's time in 10 minute blocks, instead of 1 minute increments!  Thanks very much for this information, which I now need to pass over to my long-term hourly rate client. He would be very annoyed if he thought I was adding on an extra 10 minutes to our regular 60" Skype sessions.

Thanks for sharing, Solange!

[#19]

Telling your client that Upwork is overcharging because of 10 minute increments, so he leaves the platform and you lose money is really smart. 

[#20]

There are repeated threads in the forum on 10 minute increments and either shorting hours or charging to much. Several of us have worked here for some time and have run minute trackers along with our Upwork tracker to see if we were losing money or the client was being charged more and we were making more. In three years of working on here and I have had some long term clients and run a minute tracker, the Upwork (Odesk) timer evens out and the amount of time if you are working blocks of time generally the same. It depends on if you login at a weird time or you work a block.

I worked two 2 hour blocks for a couple years and my hours always came out to 4 hours a day when I logged in at the times I was working and logged out. Any additional time was generally when I had to log back in to take an off scheduled call or work on something that was overtime. I client when running the minute timer next to the Upwork tracker had identical times. 

So for all purposes as much as someone may believe that the Tracker is cheating someone it is not.

I also bill a minimum of 1 hours work for the first hour and 15 minute increments thereafter off of Upwork. Otherwise it would be a waste of my time. I am not going to be available to a client 24/7 and be expected to bill 5 minutes worth of work.

[#21]

Who times Skype conversations to the exact minute? Do you log off when your client is in the middle of a sentence?

[#22]

For the last couple of  days the tracker is under charging, if I may say so. Yesterday it skipped logging about 50 minutes of work altogether even though looking at the activity minute by minute there's no problem.

This morning it skipped one 10-minute interval out of the first 30 minutes.

What's a person to do? Install some bogus software to send random mouse clicks just so he has 2 minutes to think about the algorithm he'll write?

Actually that doesn't seem to be the case as there's continous activity registered anyway.

[#23]

I wouldn't want to work for a client that couldn't accept the fact that a freelancer might have to let go of the mouse/keyboard for two minutes to think about something.  Talk about micromanagement!

If you do work  that frequently involves things other than typing/moving the mouse, consider using manual time or taking fixed price jobs.

[#24]

Their time tracking app has an issue when putting a computer to sleep and doing that for a long period of time. I haven't shut down my computer in 2 weeks, but I used 'sleep'.

That made the app not track time correctly (must be some internal counter that gets confused when the system clock 'skips' an interval after the PC is awoken).

I simply restarted the tracker and seems to be working correctly. Too bad I lost a couple of hours this week.

[#25]

Can someone please explain the reason why the upwork tracker was changed (from what regular time trackers do) to bill in 10 minute blocks? Most trackers count by the minute, so there must be a reason this one was changed. If the time all evens out, why did upwork spend time changing it to be different than standard trackers? If it all evens out, why not leave it to count each minute? It doesnt makes sense to me why a company would take something that is standard everywhere else, put time and money into changing it, if there wasnt an advantage somewhere, to someone.

[#26]

That's an excellent point and well made.  Why would Upwork bother to change from a minute by minute tracker, to a 10 minute block, if it really does 'even out' when payment becomes due from the client?  Only a very naíve young person would swallow Upwork's amateurish efforts to squeeze extra cash from our clients!