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7bd0d548
Community Member

Loose Money in Upwork

I recently hired a fake or unprofessional freelancer.

 

He was charging for doing something out of our work instruction. Eventhough if he did work according to our instruction, he ended up never giving the work nor proof of his works. I've been asking for his work evidence since 4 weeks which has passed by.

 

On the other hand, Upwork has time limited of 4 weeks for dispute. In total, we lost money amounted charged $150 (on $4/hr rate). I can't imagine if he was charging at a much higher rate.

 

So, I personally would want to pay higher to someone who has a unique skill/talent that I need as well as professional. But if he does not have any of that, why would a client pays these guys higher ?

 

Why would a client pays a higher ammount on this platform to a replacedable freelancer where/whom you can pay to in a lower amount ? (asume SAME QUALITY!).

 

p.s

Do NOT correlate PRICE with QUALITY in this discussion !, because it is NOT correlated at all what so ever ! 

 

It's more about correlation in beetween of PRICE with UNIQUENESS !.

 

So I hope upwork find more freelancers whom are tagged as unique to increase the platform's UX and income !

 

 

 

 

 

 

ACCEPTED SOLUTION

Why does it even matter what others choose to do? If you want to hire cheap freelancers then hire cheap freelancers. If I place a higher value on the work done then I will pay higher.   

 

If you're happy with the quality you get at the price point you pay then what is all this about?  What is it exactly you need help with?  How exactly are you losing money, as your original post states?

View solution in original post

42 REPLIES 42
g_vasilevski
Retired Team Member
Retired Team Member

Hi Ilham,

 

I'm sorry to hear about the bad experience you've had. Could you please click on my name and share more details (contract title or freelancer name) with me via PM so that I can assist you further? Thank you.

~ Goran
Upwork
petra_r
Community Member


Ilham B wrote:

I recently hired a fake or unprofessional freelancer.


Again.....

 


Ilham B wrote:

(on $4/hr rate). 


There's your answer.

 


Ilham B wrote:

Eventhough if he did work according to our instruction, he ended up never giving the work nor proof of his works. I've been asking for his work evidence since 4 weeks which has passed by.


Your "work evidence" is the freelancer's work diary.

 


Ilham B wrote:

On the other hand, Upwork has time limited of 4 weeks for dispute.


On an hourly contract, you have 5 days to dispute, and you can't dispute any deliverables (or lack thereof) at all. Only if the hours were tracked correctly or not. You pay for the freelancer's time, not a deliverable.



re: "But if he does not have any of that, why would a client pays these guys higher? Why would a client pays a higher amount on this platform to a replacedable freelancer where/whom you can pay to in a lower amount?"

 

This is a great question. On Upwork, freelancers are available at a wide range of skill levels and pay levels. It IS possible to hire freelancers at low rates to do impressive work. But generally speaking, higher-skilled freelancers will require higher pay in order to hire them. Many clients prefer to hire higher-skilled/higher-paid freelancers in order to ensure that they get work done at the level of quality they need.

 

At lower rates, a client may be searching for a "diamond in the rough." This means that lower-paid/higher-skilled freelancers ARE available, but they are harder to find.

 

For example, if you want an excellent blog writer specializing in articles about dogs, you may be able to find one who will work for $5/hour. But you may need to hire 10 different freelancers in order to find that person.

 

If you need 100 or more different articles, then it may be worthwhile to hire 10 different freelancers to write one article each, and then choose the best one to stay on and write all 100 articles. This way you will have been able to compare 10 different freelancers in order to find the one who provides the best value/quality/price combination.

 

But: If you only need ONE article written and if your budget is limited... It doesn't make sense to hire 10 different writers. You could hire the best writer that you can afford. OR you can hire very inexpensive writers in a serial manner. The thing you can NOT do is hire a very low-rate freelancer and assume that her results will be usable. If you hire using very low rates you simply must be willing to pay for work that you can't use, and then hire the next person on the list, and hire the next person on the list, etc., until you obtain usable results. It is NOT worth your time as a client to mentor and teach low-skilled freelancers until they develop their skills to level that will be sufficient to meet your needs.

I don't agree to all your guys theory. We can still hire a very expensive freelancer with low quality in Upwork. you will end up just loose your money like I did toward the cheap freelancer.

Upwork should eliminate all unprofessional or fake freelancers what's so ever so clients does not loose money at all.

So I always chose to hire many and cheap so if I am unlucky get a bad freelancer I won't loose as much.

re: "I don't agree to all your guys theory. We can still hire a very expensive freelancer with low quality in Upwork."

 

You are absolutely correct.

It IS possible to hire a very expensive freelancer who provides low quality work.

 

I don't think anybody in this thread has said otherwise.

 

re: "you will end up just loose your money like I did toward the cheap freelancer."

 

Yes, that is possible.

 

Upwork does not guarantee outcomes.

 

Upwork provides a service through which clients can find, hire and pay freelancers.

 

We know that very-low-pay freelancers are more likely to provide low quality work. But it IS possible to find very-low-pay freelancers who provide quality work, and it IS possible to provide high-pay freelancers that provide low-quality work. These are simply less likely. This is the same everywhere.

 

re: "Upwork should eliminate all unprofessional or fake freelancers... so clients does not loose money at all."

 

It would be great if Upwork did that. How do you suggest Upwork does that?

7bd0d548
Community Member

Upwork policy tells you pay for work not for time.

If they work then there's a deliverable.

You can charge in Upwork while spending time playing online games, then Upwork policy will refund that time !
petra_r
Community Member


Ilham B wrote:
Upwork policy tells you pay for work not for time.

Not with hourly contracts. Please do read the terms of service, where it is clearly explained to you in nice and simple terms. As long as the time was spent working on your project, had meaningful work memos and the activity levels were OK, you can't win a dispute. You can also only dispute the previous week.

 

Ilham B wrote:
So I always chose to hire many and cheap 

Exactly. And you are constantly having trouble.
Q.E.D

7bd0d548
Community Member

'Not with hourly contracts. Please do read the terms of service, where it is clearly explained to you in nice and simple terms. As long as the time was spent working on your project, had meaningful work memos and the activity levels were OK, you can't win a dispute. You can also only dispute the previous week."

==>

Either you are right or not, this is why many client will loose money because of this SOP.

 

**Edited for Community Guidelines**
 
This is how a fake freelancer abused your upwork's SOP :
Week 1 work very well
Week 2 charged diary without actually are working according to our instruction, so client ask him to deliver the work.
Week 3 he makes fakes promises, like will be back next week can't work because out of town, blabla bla bla etc (but they will still charge some little money at this week without even actually are working)
Week 4 He again said, sorry sir still not back, will be back next week. (but they will still charge some little money at this week without even actually are working)
Week 5 He said, ok I quit, So by this time client can no longer force refund for the week 2's work nor even the week 3's work, but client can only get the so little amount at week 4.
 
If you can't remove these type of freelancers from your platform, please at least let me knows how to avoid them.
 
Thanks
 
 
"Exactly. And you are constantly having trouble."
==>
Nope, that's where you're wrong when you persisted quality is correlated with price. 
I did have some bad experience with expensive freelancers but also I did have some good experience with cheap freelancers. So AGAIN, I say to you all, PRICE IS NEVER CORELATED WITH QUALITY.
 
So I loose money here NOT because of price issue !, but because upwork's poor algorithm which still needs to have some improvements !
 
 
 
petra_r
Community Member


Ilham wrote:
If you can't remove these type of freelancers from your platform, please at least let me knows how to avoid them.

Make better hiring decisions.

Manage your freelancers and your contracts better.


Accept that you get what you pay for. I know it's not what you want to hear because you hire at the very bottom of the barrell.

 

Ilham wrote:

Final Warning !


Warning? Or what? 
You don't get to boss people about in this forum. That may work with your cheap freelancers, it does not work here.

 

By the way.... You paid the freelancer $3 an hour (not $4 as you said, not that it matters, $3 and $4 is both bottom of the barrel). For android app development. The job post is worded in such a way that only a certain type of freelancer would consider applying. Professionals certainly won't.

 

Ilham B wrote:

I can pay low and have no issues !

That's not what your posting history (Or your client stats) would indicate. Lots of problems, really poor feedback...

 


Ilham B wrote:

try your self be a client and hire cheap vs expensive (but do it for so many times like I did, thousands hire or more).


No, you didn't hire "thousands". 546. All cheap

re: "You can charge in Upwork while spending time playing online games, then Upwork policy will refund that time"

 

This is true.

 

As a client, if I hire a freelancer using an hourly contract, and I see in work diary screenshots that the freelancer is playing online games or doing anything else other than working on my project, then I can dispute those time segments.

 

Upwork will review the work diary and REMOVE the time segments that show the freelancer playing games or doing something else from the time that I have to pay for.

 

As a client, there is a five-day time period after the end of each week during which I may dispute that time and get Upwork to remove it so that I do not pay for it.

richardrader
Community Member

$4/hr will definiately attract the bottom of the barrel freelancers. Granted there are good quality freelancers from countries with lower costs of living, but most applicants will be lower quality. 

Think of it this way. You paid $150, but got no value in return. Now you have to hire someone else or do it yourself which will cost even more money. Or you could pay more and get better quality and more value. Good quality freelancers are also very efficient. So while you may be paying a lower rate for someone, they may charge more hours vs a good quality freelancer who can do the same work for better quality in a fraction of the time. Perhaps you can even save money. 

Also check the reviews before hand. If someone has good reviews and a higher JSS score, the chances of getting good quality work are higher. You can even video chat with them to make sure they are legit. And as a tip, always request proof of work as they are working on the project where possible.

There is NOTHING WRONG with having a desire that Upwork improve.

 

There is nothing wrong with using Upwork as a client and experiencing some disappointments, and then making recommendations about ways that Upwork can change to address those issues.

 

But as Upwork users (whether clients or freelancers or both) it never helpful to ourselves and others if we confuse "recommendations for future changes" with "advice about using Upwork in the present."

 

The Upwork platform is not a philosophical idea. It is a real, already-existing platform that works the way that it does.

 

I think some of the original poster's comments in this thread are unclear about whether they are discussing how to use Upwork effectively the way that is now, or discussing recommendations for changes that Upwork could make in the future.

 

Also, some types of recommendations are not very useful if they are simply suggestions for goals that Upwork already has, yet do not include concrete actions. The original poster has recommended that Upwork have "no fake or low-quality freelancers." That is already Upwork's goal. Upwork already has extensive identity verification protocols in place that address the original poster's complaint about "fake" freelancers. Upwork has freelancer feedback, rating systems (JSS, etc.) in place to address the original poster's concerns about freelancer quality.

 

Some things are something that Upwork can not really control. In the original freelancer's comments, one might sense a desire for Upwork to continue to have very-low-cost freelancers but ensure that these freelancers only provide very-high-quality work. That isn't really Upwork or anybody else can ensure in a broad sense. There is not conceptual algorithm or user interface button that Upwork could add to its platform that would accomplish this in a guaranteed way... as this is essentially a recommendation to re-work the way the world works. The principle "You can have it cheap; You can have it right; You can have it fast" is a real principle that all clients should keep in mind. This is not something that Upwork can "choose" to just negate.

 

I love the fact that the original poster is actively thinking about ways that Upwork can be improved for its users, and I hope that he will continue to engage in discussion about the platform. For the sake of his own success, I hope he will continue to learn about both "universal principles" that affect hiring and project management, as well as about unique Upwork-specific concepts.

Why are you all keep talking about QUALITY ?!?!!?

I am sick and tired of y'all correlating PRICE with QUALITY !

 

The initial discussion is about loosing money.

 

You can always loose money when you hire high price OR low price, whatever it does not matter. This is about how to find UNIQUE vs GENERAL freelancers.

 

Final Warning !

 

 

"QUALITY IS NOT CORRELATED WITH SALARY LEVEL"

 

Any poor performing freelancers can inflate their salary.


I hired this guy named**Edited for community guidelines**at $4/hr and he did worked terribly and leave in the middle of the contract. Then when I look at his profile, he recently was hired at $28/hr where he gets a bad review similar to my experience. 

I hired him when he did not have any poor review at all, in fact some he had some good reviews.

 

"A good quality freelancer are really depends on the relationship between client on the freelancers, like if they liked each other, connected, same mind, same vision,  etc which simply a match !"

petra_r
Community Member


Ilham B wrote:

"QUALITY IS NOT CORRELATED WITH SALARY LEVEL"


So, why do the cheapest, lowest paying clients always have the biggest problems and have them most often?

 

If it has nothing to do with the fact that you hire the cheapest of the cheap, what do you think you keep doing wrong for you to have so many problems with the people you hire? Where do you, as the client, go so badly wrong if it has nothing to do with the fact that you only pay peanuts?

 

7bd0d548
Community Member

I can pay low and have no issues !

 

If I do have issues, then just kick them of the contract and find another one untill I get best price and best quality which I usually did successfully.

 

If you want to get kudo and be recognized as a good answer, try your self be a client and hire cheap vs expensive (but do it for so many times like I did, thousands hire or more).

 

p.s

Do NOT correlate PRICE with QUALITY in this discussion !, because it is NOT correlated at all what so ever ! 

 

It's more about correlation in beetween of PRICE with UNIQUENESS !.

 

So I hope upwork find more freelancers whom are tagged as unique to increase the platform's UX and income !

 

 

 


Ilham B wrote:

"QUALITY IS NOT CORRELATED WITH SALARY LEVEL"

 

Any poor performing freelancers can inflate their salary.


I hired this guy named**Edited for community guidelines**at $4/hr and he did worked terribly and leave in the middle of the contract. Then when I look at his profile, he recently was hired at $28/hr where he gets a bad review similar to my experience. 

I hired him when he did not have any poor review at all, in fact some he had some good reviews.

 

"A good quality freelancer are really depends on the relationship between client on the freelancers, like if they liked each other, connected, same mind, same vision,  etc which simply a match !"


I really don't understand what you are trying to argue. You hired someone to work for a cheap price. So you got a cheap result. No, paying someone more does not guarantee a better result, but, in general, a better quality result is going to cost more than what you paid for a poor result.  And yes, you are correct: the quality of the work often does rely on a good working relationship between the client and the freelancer. 

 

So what is your point?   You refuse to pay more and expect to get a better result? You know the colloquial definition of insanity, right?   Doing the same thing over and over and expecting  a different result.  If you want a better result YOU need to do something different when you hire and work with a freelancer next time. That could mean more vetting, that could mean paying a higher price, that could mean more supervision (since you're hiring  likely less experienced freelancers as well). Remember the success or failure of your project really rests with you, no one else.  What can you do  differently to change the outcome?

yitwail
Community Member

Going by my own experience as a freelancer, there IS correlation between hourly rate and quality of work, but itโ€™s an imperfect correlation. In an ideal world, there would be no โ€œunprofessional or fakeโ€ freelancers, but in reality those exist. So if I was hiring, I would take time to vet freelancers carefully. Only consider freelancers with extensive AND recent experience, and whenever possible, donโ€™t simply read reviews but click the job title to get to the original job listing so you can see if the client has a plausible hiring history. That way, you reduce the possibility that the freelancer did a bunch of sketchy jobs to collect 5 star ratings. Itโ€™s a lot of work but hopefully you will get better results.
__________________________________________________
"No good deed goes unpunished." -- Clare Boothe Luce

The initial discussion is NEVER about quality !

 

Just some **Edited for Community Guidelines** in this discussion start correlating price on qualities.

Do NOT correlate PRICE with QUALITY in this discussion !, because it is NOT correlated at all what so ever ! 

 

It's more about correlation in beetween of PRICE with UNIQUENESS !.

 

EDUCATE YOURSELF WITH THESE ECONOMIC TERMS :

- Bidding vs Auction

- Demand & Supply Equilibrium (adam smith invisible hand theory)

=> So you'd know that there's NO CORRELATION between PRICE vs QUALITY.

 

What drives quality are :

1. Individual's Characters

2. Individual's Work Ethics

3. Individual's self motivation / passion

4. How the Clients/Boss's leads you

5. Talents

Etc

 

You may be self motivated when you hear a high salary, but overtime, when you are told to do something you are not passionate about with a high salary, it will demotivates you thus possibly the quality.

 

 

 

re: "I can pay low and have no issues! If I do have issues, then just kick them off the contract and find another one untill I get best price and best quality which I usually did successfully."


This is all true.

 

I think this thread has some "cross talk", with many participants - maybe including myself - discussing points that are not of interest to the original poster.

 

Ilham:

You have developed a successful strategy for hiring freelancers while minimizing cost.


If a client hires very low cost freelancers and simply ends the contract with those freelancers if they don't work out and then hires another low-cost freelancer until a viable freelancer is found... that IS a legitimate hiring strategy.

 

Even if your strategy is not what some Upwork users prefer, it doesn't negate the fact that you have had success with it.

 

I think where there was some misunderstanding is that this is a public forum, and there is nothing wrong with various thread participants having viewpoints that differ from yours. You are not being attacked.

 

Thread participants may inject topics into the discussion that you don't think are directly related to your original post. And people may make points which younthink are false. But that is the nature of a public discussion forum such as this one.

 

This thread is more useful for having more than one viewpoint.

"re: "Upwork should eliminate all unprofessional or fake freelancers... so clients does not loose money at all."

 

It would be great if Upwork did that. How do you suggest Upwork does that?"

=> Improves their SOP / algorithm.

 

This is one of the way (might be more) how a fake freelancer abused your upwork's SOP:
 
Week 1 work very well
Week 2 charged diary without actually are working according to our instruction, so client ask him to deliver the work.
Week 3 he makes fakes promises, like will be back next week can't work because out of town, blabla bla bla etc (but they will still charge some little money at this week without even actually are working)
Week 4 He again said, sorry sir still not back, will be back next week. (but they will still charge some little money at this week without even actually are working)
Week 5 He said, ok I quit, So by this time client can no longer force refund for the week 2's work nor even the week 3's work, but client can only get the so little amount at week 4.
 
If you can't remove these type of freelancers from your platform, please at least let me knows how to avoid them.
 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I think where there was some misunderstanding is that this is a public forum, and there is nothing wrong with various thread participants having viewpoints that differ from yours. You are not being attacked."

==>

You may be right, but because of that, I never really get the right answer.

 

The original questions are (note, I hire for long term) :

1. I personally would want to pay higher to someone who has a unique skill/talent that I need as well as professional. But if he does not have any of that, why would a client pays these guys higher ? (asume SAME QUALITY!).

 

2. Why would a client pays a higher ammount on this platform to a replacedable freelancer where/whom you can pay to in a lower amount ? (asume SAME QUALITY!).

 

 


Ilham B wrote:

"re: "Upwork should eliminate all unprofessional or fake freelancers... so clients does not loose money at all."

 

It would be great if Upwork did that. How do you suggest Upwork does that?"

=> Improves their SOP / algorithm.

 

This is one of the way (might be more) how a fake freelancer abused your upwork's SOP:
 
Week 1 work very well
Week 2 charged diary without actually are working according to our instruction, so client ask him to deliver the work.
Week 3 he makes fakes promises, like will be back next week can't work because out of town, blabla bla bla etc (but they will still charge some little money at this week without even actually are working)
Week 4 He again said, sorry sir still not back, will be back next week. (but they will still charge some little money at this week without even actually are working)
Week 5 He said, ok I quit, So by this time client can no longer force refund for the week 2's work nor even the week 3's work, but client can only get the so little amount at week 4.
 
If you can't remove these type of freelancers from your platform, please at least let me knows how to avoid them.
 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I think where there was some misunderstanding is that this is a public forum, and there is nothing wrong with various thread participants having viewpoints that differ from yours. You are not being attacked."

==>

You may be right, but because of that, I never really get the right answer.

 

The original questions are (note, I hire for long term) :

1. I personally would want to pay higher to someone who has a unique skill/talent that I need as well as professional. But if he does not have any of that, why would a client pays these guys higher ? (asume SAME QUALITY!).

 

2. Why would a client pays a higher ammount on this platform to a replacedable freelancer where/whom you can pay to in a lower amount ? (asume SAME QUALITY!).

 

This is possibly the best answer(s) to your own question(s) you will ever receive. Well done!


 

Lol nice joke, I assume you're asking me to make an SOP and the algorithm for Upwork also ?

No one can answer my original question because there is no Single client in this discussion. You can't assume you know how client thinks if you are not even one.
lysis10
Community Member

Loose money just doesn't have any self-respect and needs to tighten up its morals.

7bd0d548
Community Member

I am sorry, I did not understand. Seems just another out of topic discussion.
The discussion is, I will loose more money if I hire a higher salary freelancer, so if the freelancer is replaceable, why would I hire the expensive one ? Assume same quality.
You know you can buy same exact shoe by the same maker but at a different price right?

I know how freelancers thinks, because I have the experience working for someone else too. I feels I deserve a higher salary because I can produce more works in a more efficient time, faster, and better quality. Even my boss said I have all of that and were very sad to have me leave. But eventually, his final decision for a raise was not because any of that. But it's because of the external condition we're in which became the consideredable factor (market).

But then when I start hiring here, I realize some clients would be willing pay higher than what I can pay. So that initiate my original unanswered questions.
r2streu
Community Member

You can actually determine the quality of the freelancer based on his or her performance for other clients. Look for the JSS, read the reviews. If you want quality, don't hire someone with no or low JSS and/or negative reviews. 


Randall S wrote:

You can actually determine the quality of the freelancer based on his or her performance for other clients. Look for the JSS, read the reviews. If you want quality, don't hire someone with no or low JSS and/or negative reviews. 


I wish that were true. I know a freelancer that has been reported several times by clients for deliving machine translation. Sadly enough they all did a test she did great in and release the payment and left a feedback before reviewing the work. So the JSS can be quite meaningless and Upwork should start removing freelancer that have been reported as scammers.

 

ETA: That freelancer charges the sames rates as I do.

7bd0d548
Community Member

Finally I found a decent comment which I sadly missed here, whom does not really talking and relating price on quality like a dork joke. ๐Ÿ˜‚

Anyway, eventhough out of the topic discussion, I do agree reviews correlates with quality. But pay attention on the feedback filters such as how large the project is. They can garner fake reviews from small projects just to make it look good.

But really, I was hoping you answer me why would you pay more for a freelancer of same service to another freelancer (assuming same quality) ?

If user A and B sells data entry work, everything else is same, like have the same amount of reviews (so assume same quality), same experience etc, so why would any clients pay one of them for more ?

Actually at least 4 of the people who have responded are clients who hire regularly through Upwork, including myself.

"Actually at least 4 of the people who have responded are clients who hire regularly through Upwork, including myself."
=>> how do I really tell which is client or not ? I can just interpret by the way they talk..
What are their answers ? 

 

"I really don't understand what you are trying to argue. You hired someone to work for a cheap price. So you got a cheap result. No, paying someone more does not guarantee a better result, but, in general, a better quality result is going to cost more than what you paid for a poor result.  And yes, you are correct: the quality of the work often does rely on a good working relationship between the client and the freelancer. 

 

=> I dont need arguments, I need answers beside PRICE = QUALITY. But it seems that is the only answers I get, so people hire more because they THINK based on delusionally (not fact) that they'll get higher quality.

 

Have you tried what i've been doing ? statistically, hire 10 cheap freelancers hence you'll get one good freelancers. It's true, if you hire 10 expensive freelancers, you can get 2 good ones. But I hire for long term, so I prefer to find cheap ones for long-term works.

 

"So what is your point?   You refuse to pay more and expect to get a better result? You know the colloquial definition of insanity, right? "  

 

=>> Do you know managers and HR in many companies (especially MNC) are hired and worked HARD to find best price best quality employees ?

 

I don't expect better result, I asume same quality. I just want someone who would works harder not because get's paid more. That's what most MNC are doing, do you never knew that ?? LOL, try your self works for MNC.

 

 

==> 

EDUCATE YOURSELF WITH THESE ECONOMIC TERMS :

- Bidding vs Auction

- Demand & Supply Equilibrium (adam smith invisible hand theory)

=> So you'd know that there's NO CORRELATION between PRICE vs QUALITY.

 

Doing the same thing over and over and expecting  a different result.  If you want a better result YOU need to do something different when you hire and work with a freelancer next time. That could mean more vetting, that could mean paying a higher price, that could mean more supervision (since you're hiring  likely less experienced freelancers as well). Remember the success or failure of your project really rests with you, no one else.  What can you do  differently to change the outcome?"

 

=> more vetting, supervision -> AGREE

=> paying a higher price ->  NOT AGREE, LOL Smiley Tongue

=> hiring  likely less experienced freelancers as well, -> I do hire more experience with slightly more expensive, like $1-2/hr higher Smiley Happy. Like I said, if they're not unique, hence, why should I hire $20 more ?...

=> Remember the success or failure of your project really rests with you, no one else. -> Agreed

=>  What can you do  differently to change the outcome?" -> Work harder than you would, it's already prooven you just wants to make it easier for your self by simply paying more expecting in get a better result (eventhough that may not be correct). Many online mentors (which you could find in youtube), would say "If you can't make money with little money, then you would probably won't be able to make money with big money", would you agreed to that ?

I do

 

You assume a lot of things about people responding here, including that we don't work hard or that we pay too much for talent. But we are not the ones complaining about our hires in an open public forum and complaining about losing money. Maybe you need to think more about how you're losing money.

No one is arguing that you have to hire more expensive freelancers. We have said that of you're having trouble with quality then looking at your pay rate can solve that issue. But you seem happy wasting money on bad quality until some provides you good quality at the price you want. In my business time is money, so I don't want to waste time looking for a low rate, good quality freelancer. I vet freelancers based on their portfolios, an actual interview, and test work (paid). I pay whatever the rate is of the person who provides good quality depending on my budget, and so I pay higher for fast and good. And my business does quite well. I don't come in here and complain about losing money.

So instead of telling us all to work harder, remember that you're the one losing money, not us.

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still".  Benjamin Franklin.

I did not loose money because I hired cheap freelancers, why not a single one of you here pointing out to me that I did actually have some experience loosing money on an expensive freelancers ?

I am here not complaining loosing money or time nor because I hired cheap or low quality freelancers!.
But I complained how the disputing time frame and how it is abused-able thus causing loosing money. But you all start assuming that I loose money because of cheap freelancers, this is so stupid.

Well in my business if you paid for something higher than what someone else would have sell it for cheaper, that is loosing money. Educate your self with the term 'OPPORTUNITY COST'.

Any rational person in my position will start have the feeling that you're all here in this discussion are either freelancers or someone who's working in Upwork trying to rip me off (or any clients that pass by the discussion) by telling me to hire expensive freelancers thus Upwork wins more fee and I loose money through the opportunity cost.

So if you're a client, you should introduce your self as one and share your experience on cheap VS expensive freelancers like I did if you do think quality are related to price.

The only thing that I think why you all think price is related with quality is actually because the fact that more expensive freelancers would be more motivated thus provides you good work quality. That's your problem where you can't manage or motivates a cheaper freelancers to serve you with a good quality. Because that's what a good manager are paid for to do : HIRE BEST PRICE - BEST QUALITY !, And motivate their cheap labors ๐Ÿ˜‚. But remember, expensive freelancers still can give you bad work quality. Because we're not buying a machine here you know ? We're buying a human, so you can't set them up like a button where it's like expensive = good, cheap = bad. Hence u called me insane ? Lol.

If you're a freelancers struggling to get paid more, then educate your self with the terms I mentioned many times before eventhough it's not related to my original question, but I just wanna do good things for mankind.

Here :

Demand & supply theory by Adam Smith the invisible hand

Bid Vs Auction, where bid means the price on a service goes low but on auction price would goes up.

Monopoly vs perfect market, well if your freelancing hence u r on the perfect market where there are so much competition on price.
petra_r
Community Member


Ilham B wrote:
No one can answer my original question because there is no Single client in this discussion. 

There are several clients in this discussion. Your original question was answered.
You just didn't LIKE the answers, the same as with all your other threads.

7bd0d548
Community Member

You're wrong, I just missed their answers. I did like their answer because they did NOT correlates price on quality like a joke.

Well unfortunately, they still not entirely answered what was the original question

Why does it even matter what others choose to do? If you want to hire cheap freelancers then hire cheap freelancers. If I place a higher value on the work done then I will pay higher.   

 

If you're happy with the quality you get at the price point you pay then what is all this about?  What is it exactly you need help with?  How exactly are you losing money, as your original post states?

"Why does it even matter what others choose to do?"
=> Well its a forum discussion, we can ask anything we want here right ?!

 

"If you're happy with the quality you get at the price point you pay then what is all this about?"

=> If you don't understand the term opportunity cost, then it's your problem. Not my problem if you loose money. Remember, I am not the one loosing money here due to opportunity cost, but it's you.

 

"If you want to hire cheap freelancers then hire cheap freelancers. If I place a higher value on the work done then I will pay higher."   

=> Now this makes sense and its really answered my original question. So now I know that basically each individuals has the ability to value a freelancer based on their self irational judgement.

 

To conclude it :

So if there are 2 same pair of shoes, same quality, same brand, same time, same maker, just being sold at two different place. You would buy one higher than me because you feels it's deserved a higher price.

 

"What is it exactly you need help with?"

"How exactly are you losing money, as your original post states?"

My problem is Ioose money due to upwork's poor algorithm and SOP, not because of cheap freelancers brings poor quality of works. 

 

I am well aware of the concept of opportunity cost. And I think the problem is your poor understanding of how that concept fits into the grander scheme of doing business.

Regarding the money YOU are losing, it's because you do not use Upwork properly and follow the SOP that you lose money, nothing else. You need to learn how to use Upwork so that you can stop losing money.

If you don't like the shoes then don't buy them.
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