Re: Name on a received invoice? - Page 7

Quang N · ‎06-30-2015

I have a quick question on the invoices you receive from Upwork. As a client, when receiving an invoice from Upwork whose name and address is shown on that invoice? Is it Upwork itself or is it the name and address of the freelancer that was hired by you? So who are you paying according to the invoice, Upwork or the freelancer?

Anonymous-User A · ‎10-08-2015

Still not concrete...

Anonymous-User A · ‎10-08-2015

Well Lena, you have a working process on Elance, why not use that? Okay, it's not 100% perfect but 90% is covered. Why don't you use that? The remaining issues with the process on Elance:

Clients can still hide their address details
Clients can still have incomplete addresses
Freelancer and client don't know whether or not a VAT ID is available, they ought to know before quoting or inviting
Elance doesn't provide invoices for the commission and the fee

Everything else is working.

Joachim, From my point of view Upwork has a fundamental problem to change the invoices. The invoices they issue at the moment increase their sales dramatically (10% invoiced to the freelancer and 90% invoiced to the client). In the Elance system their sales only cover 8.75% Elance fee charged to the client, 91.25% are the freelancer's sales. Not to forget the unsolved VAT problem and European finance minsters that may expect from Upwork to pay VAT and maybe other taxes for their sales in Europe. Am I right?

So, at the moment I do not know how the problem can be solved without changing the whole system or establishing a kind of enklave for the Europeans with their own rules.

This week EU's highest court declared EU-US "Safe Harbor" data transfer framework invalid. This will affect all US companies, thus Upwork as well and will be the next challenge.

Joachim M · ‎10-08-2015

@Margarete M wrote:
Well Lena, you have a working process on Elance, why not use that? Okay, it's not 100% perfect but 90% is covered. Why don't you use that? The remaining issues with the process on Elance:

Clients can still hide their address details
Clients can still have incomplete addresses
Freelancer and client don't know whether or not a VAT ID is available, they ought to know before quoting or inviting
Elance doesn't provide invoices for the commission and the fee
Everything else is working.
Joachim, From my point of view Upwork has a fundamental problem to change the invoices. The invoices they issue at the moment increase their sales dramatically (10% invoiced to the freelancer and 90% invoiced to the client). In the Elance system their sales only cover 8.75% Elance fee charged to the client, 91.25% are the freelancer's sales. Not to forget the unsolved VAT problem and European finance minsters that may expect from Upwork to pay VAT and maybe other taxes for their sales in Europe. Am I right?

So, at the moment I do not know how the problem can be solved without changing the whole system or establishing a kind of enklave for the Europeans with their own rules.

This week EU's highest court declared EU-US "Safe Harbor" data transfer framework invalid. This will affect all US companies, thus Upwork as well and will be the next challenge.

If I'm not mistaken they invoice 100% to the client and 10% to the freelancer so that they can deduct the 10%.

Europe will remain a pain in the a.. for them though. The invoice for the 10% ought to include VAT for freelancers in Europe and they would have to hand this to the freelancer's respective country of residence. I don't see Upwork dealing with 28% different VAT systems in Europe though. On the other hand, I don't see how the EU can enforce this regulation before they open an office in the EU. For the time being I simply file their invoices with the tax office as import from the US and pay my importation VAT on them. BTW, the VAT problem isn't limited to Europe, Canada, Switzerland and many other countries also use a VAT system.

I'm not sure about the abolished Safe Habor agreement affecting them. After all we do hand our data to them being fully aware that the data will be saved and processed in the US. They don't have an office in the EU so they should never have signed Safe Harbor agreement.

Generally speaking (only for me) I acquire so few jobs on Upwork, it doesn't really affect my business. I do notice that I'm approached directly by formerly unknown clients more often now. I suppose that a fair number of them looked my up in Google after seeing my profile on Upwork. As Upwork does everything to hide the prospective client from the freelancer they at least can't claim I must have known the client.

Edited 16/10/15 to correct the text that is now striked through.

According to my tax advisor this applies only to non-EU companies dealing with consumers directly.

Steven S · ‎10-14-2015

As a freelancer, I actually just book the payment I recieve from Upwork and make an invoice for that amount. Upwork is a US-based company, so no VAT. As I declare what I earn to the tax authorities, that works fine.

No client (on Upwork, Elance or oDesk) has ever asked me for an invoice.

If I have to start issueing invoices to clients applying the VAT rules per client, and to book separate invoices for Upwork fees, it's really not useful for me anymore to use this platform. In that case, Upwork should give the option to pay a broker fee and not use the escrow service.

For all practical purposes, Upwork pays me. The underlying legal construction determining who actually owes the money (the client), is probably not that relevant.

I would imagine that a client only needs a clear itemised invoice with the necessary data. If clients need to split that per freelancer, that would also not be a happy situation.

Joachim M · ‎10-14-2015

@Steven S wrote:
As a freelancer, I actually just book the payment I recieve from Upwork and make an invoice for that amount. Upwork is a US-based company, so no VAT. As I declare what I earn to the tax authorities, that works fine.

No client (on Upwork, Elance or oDesk) has ever asked me for an invoice.

If I have to start issueing invoices to clients applying the VAT rules per client, and to book separate invoices for Upwork fees, it's really not useful for me anymore to use this platform. In that case, Upwork should give the option to pay a broker fee and not use the escrow service.

For all practical purposes, Upwork pays me. The underlying legal construction determining who actually owes the money (the client), is probably not that relevant.

I would imagine that a client only needs a clear itemised invoice with the necessary data. If clients need to split that per freelancer, that would also not be a happy situation.

Well the tax laws within the EU (you are resident in the EU) say it differently. You will probably get it away with it until the EU decides to look into these freelancers websites/market places. As Upwork is now adding the freelancers details to the client invoice (which is correct), cross-checking by the tax offices might raise problems and especially awareness of the authorities. Upwork is basically charging a broker fee for their services, 10% of the job amount. And, it's not your job to issue invoices to clients, it's Upwork's job, you are paying for this service.

You can work through the VAT regulations here: http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/topics/invoicing_en.htm or ask your tax advisor but make it clear to him, Upwork is not the client but acts as a broker or middleman.

Steven S · ‎10-14-2015

Tax laws are national and specific to each individual country, with the exception of VAT-rules (which are European).

The tax laws in my country require me to work above-board, to have an invoice for each payment and to apply the VAT rules. The invoice needs to identify the payer and to specify what the payment is for.

They don't prohibit someone else (Upwork) to pay the bill for a service rendered to a client, as long as I declare what I am paid. The underlying arrangement, in other words, is of no interest to them (provided it is not illegal and isn't used to hide income).

So, as a freelancer, even though my agreement for providing services is with the clients who receive the service, the issue of payment and billing is a separate one. Upwork pays me, and I declare that payment with an invoice I issue to Upwork.

This mechanism also works for other intermediaries, irrespective of what they choose to call themselves. For example, if I translate a document for a client via a translation agency, I bill the agency - not the client. This is pretty much standard practice and perfectly ok.

Another issue of course is what invoice a client receives from Upwork. The fact that the names of the freelancers are on it, in my view, only relevant in terms of itemizing what is on the invoice. It doesn't create any reporting obligations.

Joachim M · ‎10-14-2015

@Steven S wrote:
Tax laws are national and specific to each individual country, with the exception of VAT-rules (which are European).

The tax laws in my country require me to work above-board, to have an invoice for each payment and to apply the VAT rules. The invoice needs to identify the payer and to specify what the payment is for.

They don't prohibit someone else (Upwork) to pay the bill for a service rendered to a client, as long as I declare what I am paid. The underlying arrangement, in other words, is of no interest to them (provided it is not illegal and isn't used to hide income).

So, as a freelancer, even though my agreement for providing services is with the clients who receive the service, the issue of payment and billing is a separate one. Upwork pays me, and I declare that payment with an invoice I issue to Upwork.

This mechanism also works for other intermediaries, irrespective of what they choose to call themselves. For example, if I translate a document for a client via a translation agency, I bill the agency - not the client. This is pretty much standard practice and perfectly ok.

Another issue of course is what invoice a client receives from Upwork. The fact that the names of the freelancers are on it, in my view, only relevant in terms of itemizing what is on the invoice. It doesn't create any reporting obligations.

Sorry Steven, you got it all wrong. In your set-up you are viewing Upwork as a reseller of your services. This is not the case, maybe Lena from Upwork can jump in and confirm this once more. She did several times already.

Upwork is a service provider. The contract is between you and the client. Upwork merely brokered the business. Very much unlike a translation agency. A translation agency buys your service and sells it to the final client, they act as reseller, buying the service from you and selling it to their client. There is no contract between you and the client and the client doesn't pay you, the translation agency pays you.

In the set-up with Upwork as broker/service provider, Upwork brokers a contract between you and the client. The client pays you using Upwork as payment service provider. Upwork then transfers the money to you and charges the commission for the services rendered. Easily to confirm if in hourly jobs you don't use their software to track the hours. Immediately Upwork no longer guarantees the payment. If your client doesn't pay, you don't won't be paid either.

So Upwork provides the following services:

- a platform where clients and providers can "meet" and negotiate a contract

- an escrow service for fixed price jobs

- a payment guarantee for hourly jobs if their software is used

- services as payment provider

- issues the invoice to the client on your behalf (there's not Upwork as sender of the invoice printed on it but you)

- should provide a copy of said invoice to you (they are not doing it at present)

For all these services they charge you a fee of 10 % for which you actually receive an invoice.

This is by no means comparable to the situation of working with a translation agency. BTW, most of my work comes through a translation agency. With a translation agency I don't care if their customer doesn't pay, I still get paid. On Upwork only if you work according to the rules, i.e. with their tracking software.

Generally speaking Upwork works in several roles: broker, insurance, escrow service, payment service provider, issuer of invoices.

Hence you somehow have to prove to the tax office where your client is located and who your client is. If the client is within the EU you need your clients VAT ID and he yours (if you both have one).

When I showed what Upwork calls an invoice (see attached) to my tax office they laughed their heads off. Apart from the client's handle/nickname there is nothing to show who the client is, where the client is located etc. They kindly told me, that frankly they see the problems I have with Upwork but until I provide proof they will consider this as revenue made within Germany and what Upwork calls an invoice they will treat as a receipt for work done within Germany and 19% VAT are due to them.

Talk to your tax office! I'm neither a tax advisor nor a tax officer, I only put the whole situation to my tax office and my tax officer. Agreed, they needed some time too to comprehend Upwork's role.

Wim J · ‎10-15-2015

Hi Steven,

I am a client. And before the invoices Odesk did gave us were sufficient.

Now Upwork has totally changed to an escrow service, maybe you should read there new terms & conditions.

I learned after closing of the 2nd quarter that all the invoices where useless that Upwork gave me.

They told me to get the invoice from the freelancer, according to the T&C.

What I did.

Now it takes me a very long time to weed out all those freelancers on a job post that have no official TAX nr in there country.

I have to look up on wikipedia the TAX rules of the country of the freelancer that applied for a job. And find out if that nr given is a correct one.

Me as client, according to the EU rules, I need to verify FIRST the valid TAX nr a freelancer gives me. A tax inspector places the responsibility on the client that wants to deduct the invoices as costs.

And as a business client, that is the centre point of buying services from others. To balance against the income.

If you as a freelancer wants to hide behind the Upwork anonymity and not providing formal invoices to your business clients.

Then or you charge so low rates per hour that it doesn't matter what your invoice would be,

(and the business client pays from his personal bank account, not the business account)

or your only client will be after a wile the retail client. That just wants to do a small job on Upwork, but is not planning to spent 10 thousands of dollars a year.

The new EU tax rule that Joachim already mentioned here, will even make all the retail clients of the EU, not more interesting for you as clients.

Results:

only the ones that delivers good work and have many clients, so they can work official and pay taxes and have a TAX nr, will survive here on Upwork.

The rest will fall in to the black market.

I even can not imagine that for the US clients, those new Upwork invoices with no detail as name at all from Upwork, will be accountable. For sure they also will start asking the freelancer to give formal invoices.

PS.: freelancer gives an invoice for 100% the client pays.

Upwork give freelancer an invoice for the 10% commission +(VAT of the country of residence in the future if the freelancer lives in the EU and has no VAT nr)

Steven S · ‎10-15-2015

Hi Wim,

"If you as a freelancer wants to hide behind the Upwork anonymity and not providing formal invoices to your business clients."

- I can assure you that I am an established (one-person) registered business with a VAT-number and a strong commitment to do everything above-board. Otherwise, I probably wouldn't care much about this discussion.

I also have to say that I am yet to receive an invoice from Upwork for the commission they charge, and that the fact that I book Upwork payments as payments from Upwork (not from separate clients) has never raised eyebrows.

I'm not trying to win an argument here; I'm just saying how I have handled this up until now. For all practical purposes, Upwork is (or has been) an intermediary. I actually very much doubt that the idea of a simple escrow service is actually compatible with the exclusivity they require, and the fact that a client and a freelancer are not enabled to negotiate freely and to contact eachother outside of the platform.

Like everyone in this thread, I am simply trying to find out how the move to Upwork has changed things. As a professional, Upwork is far from my only source of clients, and it is not my most important one. If the "cost of doing business" here becomes too high, then it is simply a matter of no longer offering my services here. That's simple economic logic.

In that sense, I don't think only the established freelancers with a tax number will survive here. I think it rather more likely that we'll be left with a collection of freelancers who perform services in the grey circuit.

Joachim M · ‎10-16-2015

@Steven S wrote:
Hi Wim,

I also have to say that I am yet to receive an invoice from Upwork for the commission they charge,

They regularly show up under the reports tag, it's not easy to find though. Follow this route: Reports->More Reports->Transaction History. In the transaction history you will see an item named Service Fee. On the right hand side of this line is a called Ref ID. Click on that and a pop up window will show the transaction details. On the bottom of this window is a link named View invoice. This will then provide a PDF version of the invoice for the commission. Really well hidden, I agree.

@Steven S wrote:

In that sense, I don't think only the established freelancers with a tax number will survive here. I think it rather more likely that we'll be left with a collection of freelancers who perform services in the grey circuit.

That's what I'm afraid of too. But, taking Wim's message as a hint I'll modify my profile to confirm that I have a valid VAT ID and to say that I'm perfectly willing to write a full VAT invoice provided the client sends me his details and his VAT ID.

Wim J · ‎10-18-2015

Hi Steven,

you speak about Odesk, in that time you received money from Odesk and made an invoice to them.

Your client received an invoice from Odesk, and used those invoices for tax purposes.

From June 2015, we are now in the Upwork community.

Clients do not get invoices from Upwork, they can download an invoice where the name of the freelancer is on mentioned.
recently , the freelancers that wish, and wish to keep there business clients, can add there full address to the invoice that Upwork makes in there name what the client can download.
is missing the VAT or TIN nr of the freelancer. (work around, ask your freelancer to add there VAT nr or TIN nr to the address. There is space to add more data. Vat ID: ... or Tin ID: ... The tax inspector won't notice that that is not the correct place to write the VAT nr.
To Upwork, I can understand that Upwork has a legal reason for not letting the freelancers to write there VAT nr ALSO FOR THERE CLIENTS invoices. (At the moment freelancers can add there VAT nr already for the Upwork invoice for the 10% commission)

But Upwork, if you can not let freelancers write their VAT nr for the clients, give the freelancers a FREE line: to write what they want to. I presume, legally, that will cover Upworks back.

MISSING INFO:

Payment method. As clients we pay to Elance Escrow Corporation ("EEC") and on our credit card charges shows up IRAN (why?)
Now is mentioned "REMIT TO.... the address of Upwork"
Here should be written "remit to Elance Escrow Corporation followed by the address of this company:
Company No: C3049380
Street 441 Logue Ave.
Town: Mountain View, CA 94043
Country: United States
for good understanding, a reference to the TERMS & CONDITIONS with the URL to it.
a part of that clause that explains the 3 way situation : clients pays to Elance as escrow that forwards the 100% to the escrow account of the freelancer and automatic deducts the 10% commission and forward that 10% commission to Upwork. (as that is the way it works now)
4.1 ESCROW ACCOUNTS: (of https://www.upwork.com/info/terms/ user agreement)
Upwork Affiliate, Elance Escrow Corporation ("EEC"), provides Escrow Services to Clients and Freelancers to deliver, hold, or receive payment for an Engagement, and to make payments to Upwork. EEC is a licensed Internet escrow agent and holds California Department of Business Oversight License No. 963 5086. The Escrow Services are intended for business use, so you agree to use the Escrow Services for business purposes
5. CONTRACTUAL RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN CLIENT AND FREELANCER 5.1 Service Contracts https://www.upwork.com/info/terms/
You acknowledge and agree that when a Freelancer accepts an Engagement awarded by a Client, the Client and the Freelancer will be deemed to have entered into a Service Contract with each other
6. PAYMENT TERMS 6.1 Service Fee: https://www.upwork.com/info/terms/
When a Client pays a Freelancer, or when funds related to an Engagement are otherwise released to a Freelancer as required by the applicable Escrow Instructions, EEC will credit the Freelancer Escrow Account and then deduct and disburse to Upwork a 10% service fee that Upwork earns and Freelancer agrees to pay Upwork for creating, hosting, maintaining, and providing the Site and Site Services (the "Service Fee"). If Freelancer elects disbursement in foreign currency, EEC will add Upwork's conversion fee of 1.5% to the spot rate quoted by its foreign exchange vendor and credit that amount to Upwork.
Maybe not that long, but a short version of the T&C that explains all.
Now if the invoice is coming from the freelancer, via Upwork download, that ONE THING NEEDS TO BE CHANGED URGENTLY: the INVOICE nr. each freelancer has there sequence of invoice nrs, the nrs Upwork is forcing, gives a problem is the freelancer uses that invoice give to his client to declare as income invoice.

All above, will make it a perfect invoice, usable for all business around the world. In the end, that are the big spenders here on Upwork, not retail clients.

And Steve, look to your reports, and transactions, you will see that from your escrow account, the full 100% the clients pays arrives there but automatic followed by the 10% commission deductions. And for that 10%, you can download a real formal invoice from Upwork, with all details of Upwork on mentioned. (what we as clients do not get)

Those 10% commissions invoices received from Upwork, you use them as a cost to offset your invoice give to your client for the 100% of the amount your client paid.

Anonymous-User A · ‎10-15-2015

@Wim J wrote:

"Now it takes me a very long time to weed out all those freelancers on a job post that have no official TAX nr in there country.
I have to look up on wikipedia the TAX rules of the country of the freelancer that applied for a job. And find out if that nr given is a correct one.

Me as client, according to the EU rules, I need to verify FIRST the valid TAX nr a freelancer gives me. A tax inspector places the responsibility on the client that wants to deduct the invoices as costs.

And as a business client, that is the centre point of buying services from others. To balance against the income."

If the freelancer produces an additional invoice this may be acceptable for the tax authorities in Europe but it is still not correct because Upwork will use their invoice to you for the US tax authorities as part of their income and there will be two different invoices for the same job: in the US the Upwork invoice (Upwork income) and the EU conform invoice (freelancer's income and your costs, +VAT or without VAT if the reverse charge system is applied). This may cause troubles in the future as well.

Wim J · ‎10-18-2015

@Margarete M wrote:

If the freelancer produces an additional invoice this may be acceptable for the tax authorities in Europe but it is still not correct because Upwork will use their invoice to you for the US tax authorities as part of their income and there will be two different invoices for the same job: in the US the Upwork invoice (Upwork income) and the EU conform invoice (freelancer's income and your costs, +VAT or without VAT if the reverse charge system is applied). This may cause troubles in the future as well.

Upwork, does NOT give an invoice to the client anymore.

Upwork give only a formal invoice to the freelancer. And that is there ONLY income to declare.

It is much more clearer as before and I presume it gave big problems in the past for Odesk that eventually they had to change the entire business under a NEW COMPANY WITH A NEW NAME, to prevent legal problems that will affect Odesk.

Upwork is fine and covered, the spend millions on that switch and new T&C.

It is the freelancer that is in trouble, as they will have 2 invoices.

One that Upwork give the client in the name of the freelancer with Upwork invoice nr

and the one that the freelancer declares as income with their invoice nr.

As long as Upwork doesn't give the freelancer the control of the invoice nr, this will be a problem for the freelancer.

Steven S · ‎10-18-2015

If that is the case, Wim, there really is no reason to continue working with Elance, with all the restrictions in client-provider interaction it entails.

Looking back on my list of clients, I don't even have verified contact information for most of them. The bidding process on Elance also doesn't allow for much pre-contractual information exchange, so there is no way to set up an airtight system from where I'm standing. And, to be frank, the average rates on Upwork also aren't much of an incentive to put much time and energy in administration.

Thanks for clarifying all this for me. Frankly, I had no idea the switch to Upwork had such profound consequences.

Joachim M · ‎10-19-2015

@Steven S wrote:
If that is the case, Wim, there really is no reason to continue working with Elance, with all the restrictions in client-provider interaction it entails.

Looking back on my list of clients, I don't even have verified contact information for most of them. The bidding process on Elance also doesn't allow for much pre-contractual information exchange, so there is no way to set up an airtight system from where I'm standing. And, to be frank, the average rates on Upwork also aren't much of an incentive to put much time and energy in administration.

Thanks for clarifying all this for me. Frankly, I had no idea the switch to Upwork had such profound consequences.

Steven, on Elance theses problems don't exist. Elance provides an EU compliant invoice, provided freelancer and client have both entered their respective VAT IDs into their profiles and are not hiding their address details. Most of my clients on Elance (and on Upwork) are business clients. On Elance (not on Upwork) most actually have a VAT ID and if they missed entering it into their profile they will provide it by message.

Wim is correct in that we are normally obliged to verify the client's VAT ID before issuing the invoice. But, nobody is going to tear us to pieces if we add the VAT ID in handwriting on the printed invoice. It's essential though that we enter it into our accounting software.

On Upwork the freelancer can never set up an airtight system but he doesn't have to. For now I have started to say in my proposals that the price I mention includes 19% VAT. The client can avoid the VAT if he provides a full address for a legal invoice and a VAT ID if he is resident within the European Union. Will have to see how this works out. I have serious doubts that Upwork will come up with a solution in the forseeable future.

Anonymous-User A · ‎10-19-2015

@Joachim M wrote:
The client can avoid the VAT if he provides a full address for a legal invoice and a VAT ID if he is resident within the European Union. Will have to see how this works out. I have serious doubts that Upwork will come up with a solution in the forseeable future.

That is true but before not applying 19% VAT to a client (reverse charge) the VAT ID of this client has to be approved by German tax authorities (Bundeszentralamt fuer Steuern) here:

https://evatr.bff-online.de/eVatR/index_html

After the VAT ID has been confirmed then the reverse charge of VAT can be applied. In case of not being confirmed it must not be applied. That is my practice according the recommendations of my tax consultant.

Joachim M · ‎10-19-2015

@Margarete M wrote:
@Joachim M wrote:
The client can avoid the VAT if he provides a full address for a legal invoice and a VAT ID if he is resident within the European Union. Will have to see how this works out. I have serious doubts that Upwork will come up with a solution in the forseeable future.
That is true but before not applying 19% VAT to a client (reverse charge) the VAT ID of this client has to be approved by German tax authorities (Bundeszentralamt fuer Steuern) here:

https://evatr.bff-online.de/eVatR/index_html

After the VAT ID has been confirmed then the reverse charge of VAT can be applied. In case of not being confirmed it must not be applied. That is my practice according the recommendations of my tax consultant.

I use: http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/vies/?locale=de

I also would like to point out that only a few countries permit the owner of the VAT ID to be displayed. Most merely confirm whether or not the VAT ID is valid. Hence fraud is possible by using the VAT ID of another company.

And verification is necessary only for companies within the EU. For companies outside the EU the address is proof enough. As this also is open for fraud I'd love to have the ID of a buyer verfied by Upwork before the buyer can award a job. Posting jobs I don't care whether or not the address is verfied.

Anonymous-User A · ‎10-19-2015

@Joachim M wrote:
@Margarete M wrote:
@Joachim M wrote:
I use: http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/vies/?locale=de

I also would like to point out that only a few countries permit the owner of the VAT ID to be displayed. Most merely confirm whether or not the VAT ID is valid. Hence fraud is possible by using the VAT ID of another company.

Fraud everywhere...

Egor S · ‎10-23-2015

Hi Joachim,

Thank you for your informative posts. You mentioned in your previous posts that elance provides enough documents / information in case both parties are from EU. What are the process and applicable taxes (if freelancer and client do their business via elance) in case the client is outside of EU (the USA for example) and freelance is from EU (Germany for example)?

Anonymous-User A · ‎10-24-2015

@Egor S wrote:
Hi Joachim,

Thank you for your informative posts. You mentioned in your previous posts that elance provides enough documents / information in case both parties are from EU. What are the process and applicable taxes (if freelancer and client do their business via elance) in case the client is outside of EU (the USA for example) and freelance is from EU (Germany for example)?

There is no legal way of invoicing without all necessary information about the client. We discuss this issue here for months. Upwork leaves freelancers and clients alone with this problem only promising indefinite changes at some indefinite future date.

Valeria K · ‎10-24-2015

@Margarete M. wrote:

@Egor S wrote:

Hi Joachim,

Thank you for your informative posts. You mentioned in your previous posts that elance provides enough documents / information in case both parties are from EU. What are the process and applicable taxes (if freelancer and client do their business via elance) in case the client is outside of EU (the USA for example) and freelance is from EU (Germany for example)?

There is no legal way of invoicing without all necessary information about the client. We discuss this issue here for months. Upwork leaves freelancers and clients alone with this problem only promising indefinite changes at some indefinite future date.

Yeah, I noticed that while reading threads 😕

I was also asking about the experience with such a thing at elance, maybe someone had an experience there. From what I've read elance seems to be more prepared for EU taxation.

Joachim M · ‎10-25-2015

@Egor S wrote:
Hi Joachim,

Thank you for your informative posts. You mentioned in your previous posts that elance provides enough documents / information in case both parties are from EU. What are the process and applicable taxes (if freelancer and client do their business via elance) in case the client is outside of EU (the USA for example) and freelance is from EU (Germany for example)?

Hi Egor, with the freelancer in Europe and the client in the US (or any other country not member of the EU) no VAT is to be charged. On Elance most clients allow for their full address to be displayed on the invoice issued by Elance. I have to say most, as Elance does permit clients to hide their details and only their handle to be displayed. At the start of a fixed price job you can view the proforma invoice issued for the funding of escrow. If the information displayed doesn't suffice you can ask your client to provide all necessary details (the full address is sufficient).

Problem is, Elance is being wound down, no new clients can register and soon now new jobs can be posted.

Egor S · ‎10-25-2015

@Joachim M wrote:
@Egor S wrote:
Hi Joachim,

Thank you for your informative posts. You mentioned in your previous posts that elance provides enough documents / information in case both parties are from EU. What are the process and applicable taxes (if freelancer and client do their business via elance) in case the client is outside of EU (the USA for example) and freelance is from EU (Germany for example)?
Hi Egor, with the freelancer in Europe and the client in the US (or any other country not member of the EU) no VAT is to be charged. On Elance most clients allow for their full address to be displayed on the invoice issued by Elance. I have to say most, as Elance does permit clients to hide their details and only their handle to be displayed. At the start of a fixed price job you can view the proforma invoice issued for the funding of escrow. If the information displayed doesn't suffice you can ask your client to provide all necessary details (the full address is sufficient).

Problem is, Elance is being wound down, no new clients can register and soon now new jobs can be posted.

Kek, what we are supposed to do when elance will be closed? 😕

Anonymous-User A · ‎10-25-2015

@Egor S wrote:
Kek, what we are supposed to do when elance will be closed? 😕

I will insist to issue my own invoices in Upwork adding VAT where necessary. Therefore I will need all address details of the client. If the client will not accept this I will not work for him. Unfortunately it is much additional work with the invoices. We now pay 10% instead of 8.75% in Elance and have additional work with the invoices. I would not do this for a very small job and would then prefer to abstain from the business. I only speak from a German point of view. The situation might be different for freelancers from the United States. Maybe everything is fine for them, I do not know.

Wim J · ‎11-02-2015

Margarete M wrote
I will insist to issue my own invoices in Upwork adding VAT where necessary. Therefore I will need all address details of the client. If the client will not accept this I will not work for him. Unfortunately it is much additional work with the invoices. We now pay 10% instead of 8.75% in Elance and have additional work with the invoices. I would not do this for a very small job and would then prefer to abstain from the business. I only speak from a German point of view. The situation might be different for freelancers from the United States. Maybe everything is fine for them, I do not know.

I agree, the freelancer should receive a copy of the automatic invoice that is given in the freelancer name to the client.

But it can be easily solved, just ask at the end of each quarter or the job done, the copy of the invoices given to your client by Upwork. I do not see any problem for a business client not to give you YOUR invoices.

The only problem will be still the invoice number. What should be your number.

And all what you write by hand on that invoice, should again a copy be given to your client. A lot of work that Upwork should solve.

I hope they are listening.

There switch from Odesk to Upwork is understandable but some parts are still of the old Odesk. as the invoice numbers.