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rangerpixel
Community Member

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ACCEPTED SOLUTION

Sorry. He sent you a PNG file which is pixelated. Now it is getting complicated. Actually I am a designer and I know vector files can be scaled without loosing quality if what you did was redraw the PNG to vector, then you deserve your payment. Yes he may have the plan to run away with the Ai file, but you are not certain, you still need to deliver work for payment no matter what, we can only hope he actually pays. I will advice you, avoid fixed jobs. I went through this and thank Goodness I have recovered from it. I only do hourly contract now, so no matter what I will get paid. Just try to reason with him and send the illustrator file I believe he will pay you.

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35 REPLIES 35
a_lipsey
Community Member

Based on your screenshots it sounds like he was trying to pay you the original milestone and add milestones for revision. It sounds like you jumped the gun, and the client actually backed off more than once and agreed to keep working with you even when it wasn't quite what he wanted. 

 

It seems like you jumped the gun in accusing him of bad faith, instead of just asking what he was intending with the new milestones and clarifying with him that the original milestone needed to be paid. I actually agree with the client in this instance. He even tried to pay you the original milestone and close the job, but you convinced him to keep going. Your tone with him is off putting. Presuming he's treating you poorly versus just stating what you need to keep working (please release the first milestone and I'll happily address these additional revisions, thanks!) just set you up for a poor outcome . I cannot recommend enough that freelancers take a conflict resolution course or at least read about it and implement it as a wrap around skill. 

Thank you for your response. The unease started when he changed the milestone without my consent and he did it twice. A deal is a deal and a deal is a contract made by both parties in which they agreed upon before the deal is made, not afterwards; It is as simple as "A deal is a deal and no changes afterwards". Additional changes should apply to the next milestone if ever accepted; it is NOT applicable to the first contract/deal that has already been made; to make things worse, he is insisting to apply additional instructions and details to the original contract; its like saying its a one way contract, he have unlimited rules and I just comply to whatever he wants. What is the deals' for then? Thanks again for taking time with this Amanda.

He even tried to pay you the original milestone and close the job, but you convinced him to keep going. ----------------------------------------- That's his trick Amanda, The AI file or source file is a 50 hours work file I did with my soul. Giving that to him (not included in our original contract) would not secure his payment. After providing him that, He could just say "I dont like it and I will not pay, cancel the contract." leaving a 50 hour job unpaid. If he did include that he needs the AI file in his original contract, I would just provide him with that and move on. Being tricked only comes to those who leave an opening.  A word is a word, a deal is a deal, If the deal is completely made by the other, the other should also give the end of the deal. If his additional milestones/ instructions/ requests were already specified in his job posting, I would not have wasted my connects with this man.

I know Amanda that the terms used were for Adobe Illustration artists. To make things simple, its like applying for a job that just reads  "(1+1-1=?) provide me an answer and I will pay you $5". One would definitely submit work for payment stating that the answer is 1; He then just changed the milestone (without my consent) stating "show your process for another $5". I still provided him with the process but then he also added details that "if A=1, what's the answer?" Again, I just applied for the job that I can do that is stated on the description. For courtesy sake, he should have asked me if I am willing to provide him with additional answers or if I am capable before changing the milestone. He jump on me to provide his additional milestone without releasing the first which is just $5 (my capability). What if I have no time to show the process and I dont know the answer if A=1? Is he qualified to tell me that we are not done with the work until I gave him the answer to his additional instruction which is A=1?. After complying with his additional requests, he then deleted those milestones of additional $5 again(without my consent). Thanks for the time.

JoanneP
Moderator
Moderator

Hi Paul,

 

I checked the contract you were referring to and I would like to confirm that clients can request for revisions if the submitted work is not to their satisfaction before they release the payment.

 

In this situation, you may politely request more information from your client about the changes and how they would like to have it done. It is always ideal to discuss and try resolving any issues amicably.  

~ Joanne
Upwork

Thank you for your response Robin. "Politely" should have been my direction until he was abusive:

 **Edited for Community Guidelines**

-------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please notice the inconsistency and do not overlook his change of behavior after the job is actually done---------------------

Thank you for your response Robin. "Politely" should have been my direction until he was abusive:

 
 **Edited for Community Guidelines**

Hi Paul,

 

I`m sorry to hear about the bad experience you had. 
Please keep in mind that posting private details publicly in our Community is not allowed and it is a violation of our Community Guidelines. Thank you.

~ Goran
Upwork

Hi Goran, Thank you. I just placed the initials of his name for reference.

I thought at first that moderators or upwork customers service will only be the ones who will be able to see this thread as I was looking where to file a dispute. Thank you.

 I am inclined to agree with the client that the "chip" you have on your shoulder, needs to go.

 

It would also appear that you misunderstood the client's age. He said that he has been a designer for 22 years, not that he is 22 years old, and overall, having read through the whole exchange, you clearly misunderstood things and then reacted in an unprofessional, emotional, juvenile way.

 

The way you handle your clients is VITAL for your success (or failure) on this platform.

 

Your very low JSS (which is sure to take yet another nosedive with yet another poor outcome) might serve as a hint that there is room for improvement.

 

There is nothing to report the client for.

The client started the whole thing and I never did mistaken his age for he looks older than me.

 

Correct, client handling is vital and there is always room for improvement whether were speaking about JSS or not.

 

The depth of how the job is done and the situation particularly Adobe illustrator cannot be much comprehended by someone who has no  background of the job compared to those who have. Thank you for your feedback and constructive criticism. Criticizing just the situation is professional being a guru, but the statement " I am inclined to agree with the client that the "chip" you have on your shoulder, needs to go.", which is outside the topic and opinionated is not professional in any way. 

I had to wait for people to comment before I did lol. The client accepted to pay you, but you seemed too fast and dogged it. You could have sent him the Ai file since he is also a designer he could maybe fine tune it. Your Jss score will hit very hard. The only best way is to go back and actually make peace with him. Tell him you will send the Ai file and accept the payment. Just find nice words to use. Etc cause from here, he was never even at fault the images he sent and yours are infact the same, I couldn't see the work you did. I am a designer too. Also he stated from day one that he needed someone who would recreate or redraw just using the reference you had all creative freedom. Just go back and make peace..140$ is quite high compared to your previous 3 projects.. I hope this helps.

thank you, his original file is just png and pixelated, mine is vector. the "redraw" part is just defined further after the contract has already been made, meaning it is not in the original job posted. 

**Edited for Community Guidelines**

If he is really not satisfied, he should have been consistent from the beginning. My mistake was complying to his additional rules ang milestones withought saying to him to close the first milestone. 

Hi Chester, I could've just provided him with the vector file but what if he ran away and don't pay after he received my source file? I fear after I submbit work for payment he will just do what he did twice which is modify the milestone. Once he modify the milestone, I need to submit work again, and if he change again the milestone, he will just keep on doing that escaping his payment. That part where he created milestone without my consent and talking to me that as if his additional request is already a part of the first deal is tricky and made me feel un ease.

He was never even at fault the images he sent and yours are infact the same- Thats how detailed it was made, all vector shapes were made with similar color. once the vector file is converted with higher resolution, It will look a lot detailed even if you magnify it. Again, all of this was recreated with adobe Illustrator, not photoshop so that means none are copy pasted. everything was drawn from zero.  I'll attach the image with a better resolution and tell me if its in fact the same. It was not specified in the job posted that I should recreate his image without copying the style or (copyright) from what he provided. It just simply reads as recreate the image as vector with better details. Without attention to what he said before, apart from what he said after the original post would make you really think that he is right. Though we dont seem to be on the same page as to who is actually at fault, that's a professional way of delivering it to help someone resolve an issue. I will send him the AI file as you recommended but what if he got what he wanted and refuses to pay, how can I dispute him? I will accept you as solution after your reply to me. Thank you Chester.

Frankly, it doesn't really even matter who is at fault. You can never win a fight with a client, because even if you "win" - you lose.

 

The whole thing is a breakdown in communication and a lack of understanding. 

Utterly unneccessary and I hope the blow this will deal your metrics will not be the final nail in the coffin of your Upwork career.

Sorry. He sent you a PNG file which is pixelated. Now it is getting complicated. Actually I am a designer and I know vector files can be scaled without loosing quality if what you did was redraw the PNG to vector, then you deserve your payment. Yes he may have the plan to run away with the Ai file, but you are not certain, you still need to deliver work for payment no matter what, we can only hope he actually pays. I will advice you, avoid fixed jobs. I went through this and thank Goodness I have recovered from it. I only do hourly contract now, so no matter what I will get paid. Just try to reason with him and send the illustrator file I believe he will pay you.


Chester O wrote:
Sorry. He sent you a PNG file which is pixelated. Now it is getting complicated. Actually I am a designer and I know vector files can be scaled without loosing quality if what you did was redraw the PNG to vector, then you deserve your payment. Yes he may have the plan to run away with the Ai file, but you are not certain, you still need to deliver work for payment no matter what, we can only hope he actually pays. I will advice you, avoid fixed jobs. I went through this and thank Goodness I have recovered from it. I only do hourly contract now, so no matter what I will get paid. Just try to reason with him and send the illustrator file I believe he will pay you.

I do fixed price projects all the time. I send files in their finished state and request payment. I have never not been paid. Based on the way this client communicated, there is nothing that makes me believe he did not intend to pay as promised. 

Okay Thank you.

Lucky for you. Still, you can't compare to every scenarios. There are subjective or objective outputs. If you're dealing with objective then it is easy to say when it is done because it is factual based; graphic designs on the otherhand is subjective where the "eye of the beholder" is involved

Thank you Chester, as a graphic artist as well, you know more of the details of the concern, we are on the same page but not judging other commentators lack of knowledge. Yesterday I was finding a way how to file a dispute. I already sensed that the client will run away even from the very first time he changed the milestone without my permission.

 

However, Some advised me here rather to have goodfaith. The Client requested the AI file (again not in the contract ) for payment. A deal is a deal, a word is a word and a man is not a man if he doesnt keeps it. I did follow your advice because it is indeed the virtuous act, the best. I did give him the end of the deal, the 50 hour long work making the vector(source file), then I was right, he ran away, ended the contract with cancellation. I don't blame anyone here, I just took the people's advice, make peace and give him what he wants, and make my decision out of "self improvement and adjustments". Someone who's been in the military are not easily fooled and can sense if something is fishy and that's whats on my shoulder is for. Dignity over career. and I believed in the saying "no one is fooled unless you leave an opening" more than "customer is always right". Again, thank you for reading the situation between the lines, not just following the client's sweet words to reason for his unpolite act of changing contract twice.

 

To note some concern to other guru, I am not full time /dependent on upwork, this is just a $140 job and I can recover my JSS with good feedback from my regular customer in which I earned $+++, a Good american citizen, with hourly contract only that i didn't reflect on my graphic design tab but on my all work tab. Upwork career is perpendicular to JSS, but a month old account wouldn't hurt to let go. Again,this is client oriented but, it all breakdown to your core values, it just happened that it's dignity over pass time carreer. Thank you.

 

Is the dispute button available only when the contract has ended? I was finding a way to report that man yesterday when the contract is still going on.

If this is a fixed price job and the milestone was in place, you don't need to do anything to get paid. That's what Upwork's Payment protection is about. Once you submit the work, all you need to do is to let the clock run out, and if he takes no action, then Upwork pays you automatically. 

If he hits "refresh" (which is inaccurate. The client is exercising their option to ask for a redo of the work) then you ask for specific instructions on what he wants. Mention politely that until you get paid, the work belongs to you.  Then do the work and turn it in again. After that, let the clock run out. Now he has few options. Either he must ask you for a refund (don't give him the refund! It will impact your JSS.) Or he'll must ask for mediation which he, and unfortunately you, must pay for. Unless he had an excellent reason not to accept the work, it won't go well for him. 

Again, he's done nothing that needs reporting, so there is no need to get upset. We all need the money we earn, but one of the great lessons in life is learning to cut your losses. Sometimes, despite the best efforts of both freelance and client, a contract does not go well. That's life. 


Go, and earn some other jobs to put this one behind you. 

Good luck. ๐Ÿ™‚


I am sorry Chester, you have a kind soul but I didn't know that I can only mark one as the answer, I shouldve marked yours, thank you and good luck.

Lol. It's fine any solution is good as long as it addressed the issue at hand. Working with Ai files are very difficult and time consuming. Creating layers one by one etc. Just be careful next time. I wish you good luck too.


Paul Albert E wrote:

The client started the whole thing and I never did mistaken his age for he looks older than me.

 

Correct, client handling is vital and there is always room for improvement whether were speaking about JSS or not.

 

The depth of how the job is done and the situation particularly Adobe illustrator cannot be much comprehended by someone who has no  background of the job compared to those who have. Thank you for your feedback and constructive criticism. Criticizing just the situation is professional being a guru, but the statement " I am inclined to agree with the client that the "chip" you have on your shoulder, needs to go.", which is outside the topic and opinionated is not professional in any way. 


While I am not a designer by profession, I know how to use Adobe Illustrator. Don't assume that the people commenting do not understand how things work. I think your client was right about the chip on your shoulder. I saw the messages you posted before Goran deleted them, as did others, I believe. You have more than one person telling you that you overreacted to this client and did so poorly. You need to learn some conflict resolution skills and client management skills. This could have been easily resolved if you hadn't gotten so defensive and angry so fast, and simply clarified with the client without being accusatory. 

The depth of how the job is done and the situation particularly Adobe illustrator cannot be much comprehended by someone who has no background of the job compared to those who have. โ€---- My statement is a fact; to make it easier, the hardship of a blind person cannot be as much comprehended by someone compared to those who are also blind. Those who have the actual experience will have more knowledge compared to those who didn't experience. If you know how to use illustrator, then you shouldn't have reacted because it would simply mean that it isnt referring to you.

Since self improvement is a two way process, telling me " I think your client was right about the chip on your shoulder." and the other who spoke the same is unnecessary so allow me to show you also my reply to my client regarding that statement. "I would have acknowledge such statement if you have earned it yourself; otherwise you have no credibility to say it."

 

If you want to make your own stand, avoid referencing.

with the effort and INTENT to help, thank you, I would just say that if my work is just objective rather than subjective, then your advices and insights would have been the best.


Paul Albert E wrote:

Since self improvement is a two way process, telling me " I think your client was right about the chip on your shoulder." and the other who spoke the same is unnecessary so allow me to show you also my reply to my client regarding that statement. "I would have acknowledge such statement if you have earned it yourself; otherwise you have no credibility to say it."

 

If you want to make your own stand, avoid referencing.

with the effort and INTENT to help, thank you, I would just say that if my work is just objective rather than subjective, then your advices and insights would have been the best.


Your responses pretty much illustrate poor communication skills and an attitude towards any feedback/criticism. If you want to improve and not have these situations happen again, you need to work on your communication skills and learn how to receive feedback without throwing insults at people.   You are going to continue to  have a hard time until you start to see how your communication to this client was offputting and hostile.  This advice and insight, just as the ones before, are objective (not subjective - I don't know you, I'm judging merely on what you share)  and intended to help you see how you can improve as a freelancer so these things stop happening to you. Design skills are not the only skills you need to succeed, and anyone questioning that can look here at your story to see that's the case. 

 

Sadly, I think you're going to disregard anyone telling you anything you don't want to hear. You simply want to be right, even if being right means you eventually fail as a freelancer.  Sleep on it and think about whether you want to be right or successful? 

Also please read my reply to Amanda L. Thank you very much Joanne.

martina_plaschka
Community Member

Client management is a skill that can be learned. 

wlyonsatl
Community Member

Can a client add new milestones to a fixed price project without the prior agreement of the freelancer?

 

If so, that isn't right. And would be yet another reason to avoid fixed price projects, if you can.

Yes I was suprised he did. Also, once he changed the milestone, I need to submit work for payment again. He can use this technique over and over again before reaching the 14th day unlimited. I was surprised there was no (request change milestone- disapprove button.  I would say it again, this made me feel very uncomfortable and I started doubting the client. Thank you for your response,


Will L wrote:

Can a client add new milestones to a fixed price project without the prior agreement of the freelancer?

Yes, but in this case the client meant well. He added the additional milestone to pay for requested changes.

 


Will L wrote:

If so, that isn't right. 


We've been telling Upwork that for literally years, to no avail. Even worse, the only way to "undo" such a milestone is to close the contract.

 

Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Say I just simply don't have the time to do a milestone a long term client added as quickly as they may need it, rather than being able to simply decline it, I have to end the contract just so the client gets their money back....

I see that you are a very trusting person. You believed  every sweet words used to reason an impolite act of changing contract twice without asking the other party or even discussing it before applying the change.

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