$70k / 1500 hours for excel to python mods LOL

[gavintfn]

Today, lets examine some clearly fraudulent and most likely laundering activity (cause I have the free time!)

1st up  an urgent request for assistance with an excel to python script, posted 2 years ago.  Still active, and billed $70,000+ for 1672 hours....

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 THAT IS ONE EXPENSIVE SCRIPT!!!!

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But wait, the client has another one.... 1 slide $1400.... 

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LETS TRACK THIS BACK TO THE FREELANCER.......AND WHATS THIS? 
A $5000 PowerPoint Presentation that is over a year old and the guy put 4.75 weeks of work into it!  He must be the best PPT designer ever!

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Wonder what else this client is up to????

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Wow a $1500 business name... who needs to stock the shelves with anything when you have a $1500 name for your company... am i right? lets see what the freelancer was up to... Ahh.... this one was a little smarter and kept things private...., 

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But that sure is odd that the freelancer is still working  working on branding for 3 companies.  Huh.. and the all hired the freelancer over span of 1 month in 2022...... 
Lets see if we can reverse this freelancers work by finding a job in "completed jobs" that is not private...And... we can

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About us page for $1200.....This freelancer is like a modern day Jules Verne!....Oooh.. but this is different...
This client employed another freelancer for 85 hours, and paid them $2200+ gave 1 star commented negatively....

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 This was 1  of 6 similar chains of absolutely absurd billing practices i chased down today while browsing.I think we should start flagging posts of clients like these just to get some attention paid to these accounts. Lets keep this going, feel free to add some of your own in the replies!

 

[bilsim]

My examples cannot fit in a reply, but could fit in a long-form novel.

[6bfcdaf8]

Hi Gavin, are you new to Upwork? Actually the examples you shared look ok. Most clients would hire you for a job hourly and if they like you they will continue giving you more work without changing the contract. And i actually tried finding a name for a company and couldn't, when i searched for talent they asked for similar prices. So i think you need to spend more time meeting new clients rather then trying to label everything outside your comfort zone. Your profile was private so i couldn't check your area of expertise, would you like to share?

[gavintfn]

Wow... you have a suspiciously positive asttitude!  Good for you!  
But.... just out of curiosity....
By "you need to spend more time meeting new client"   I'm assuming you meant "spend more money buying connects"  because i'm not sure how anyone would "meet new clients" without doing so.
and 
"And i actually tried finding a name for a company and couldn't, when i searched for talent they asked for similar prices"
I have no idea what that means.  No need to reply.

[gavintfn]

also, as the images were pulled, you could not see what i was talking about so... again...  no need to reply

[6bfcdaf8]

They were there when i replied 🙂 All i'm saying is, maybe there is a world where people are hired, well paid, freelancers gave their 100% to their work, delivered ethically... And that world is waiting for you to discover it 🙂 

And for your other comments, yes i do pay for connects, but much less than one would imagine. Really positioning yourself well in the market and writing genuine proposal texts help a lot. And the other one was about the fact that, naming services are expensive. Cheap naming services are like... here's your name : "asgfghj" with no rationale no presentation no nothing... good luck branding with that garbage. Creative services are reeeeally high priced if you want to do it right.

[gavintfn]

Sure, its possible that all the people who have sketchy looking contracts ARE actually doing a good job....
But...I doubt it....
Lets see...
in the 2022 upwork annual report upwork claimed they provisioned 316% more for transactional losses including fraud.....keep in mind, that is what they provisioned for those losses...not actuall losses...

 They saw this comming as they "provisioned" +300% more.  as well, in the upwork 2021 annual investor report , search the term "laundering" take note of how many times the term comes up:
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Clients and non upwork useres complaints about charges by upwork without ever having been on the platform, or not using the platform for years:
https://community.upwork.com/t5/New-to-Upwork/Fraudulent-Charge-from-Upwork/m-p/558124

https://community.upwork.com/t5/Support-Forum/Credit-Card-Fraud/td-p/1098735

https://community.upwork.com/t5/Support-Forum/fraudulent-credit-card-charges/m-p/1078461

https://community.upwork.com/t5/Clients/Suspected-Fraud-Upwork-Escrow-was-found-in-my-preapproved/m-...

I like upwork.  unfortunately, i do not believe they have the staff, nor the tech to prevent this from happening.  My intention here is to draw attention to the problem.... and not just to complain.  So if everyone starts reporting "suspicious" accounts maybe they will take note. 

[yofazza]

i do not believe they have the staff, nor the tech to prevent this from happening.  My intention here is to draw attention to the problem

I wrote this many times because it makes me understand why Upwork didn't care about the problems.

It's because, they can't profit by having the "usual high-quality freelance marketplace". They've tried, for over a decade.

They need to be "creative". They need to cut losses, increase income. They have an enormous member base who were only putting burden (server, support, bandwidth cost) because only a tiny part of the member base can generate income (clients vs freelancers are greatly imbalanced).

After managing to make (almost) the rest of the member base pay, they can now turn a profit.

As for stopping scams., those does not give profit, only extra cost. They also don't need a 'good review' or a 'good name' for being a 'scam buster' because people are still coming, even though they're scammed every day.

People mad about scam/spam problems for years: Is Upwork losing the battle against scammers?

They are not losing, they get along with it.

Just position ourselves accordingly. We can't tell them to stay at a loss so we can have a "profitable-to-us freelance marketplace", but we also shouldn't get caught in their game.

[gavintfn]

this is also useful: 2022 anual report:

Provision for Transaction Losses.

Provision for transaction losses consists primarily of losses resulting from fraud and bad debt expense associated with our trade and client receivables balance and transaction losses associated with chargebacks. Provisions for these items represent estimates of losses based on our actual historical incurred losses and other factors. In 2022, we experienced increased instances of fraud, higher chargeback losses, and bad debt losses related to Upwork Enterprise clients. As a result, we partnered with an industry-leading third-party fraud detection vendor and enhanced our trust and safety measures. Due to these efforts, we expect provision for transaction losses to remain elevated throughout the first quarter of 2023 but to gradually decline throughout the remainder of 2023. However, it could fluctuate as a result of continued instances of fraud and higher chargeback or bad debt losses and our ongoing efforts to reduce this activity on our work marketplace

[6bfcdaf8]

I have checked the 2021 report. The term was used around 10 times, that is, to acknowledge this as a risk for the company and explain measures taken. It wouldn't be reasonable to say bad stuff is never happening here. If you are let's say a student, or someone who is not used to running a business, you can be a victim of some small scale scams, if you fail to read the guides. On the other hand if you are used to running a solo or agency business, the scam types and risk is relatively similar and you would do your due dilligence before starting to work with a person

The reason i replied to your initial post was, i felt it's coming from a point of frustration, someone who is not happy with where they are in business and looking at those high making people and thinking they are all shady. And i have gone through a process where i have been a local employee for firms and switched to global freelancing and make unbelievable amounts of money (compared to my own standards). And i met other people along the way too! All honest, legitimate work, hard working people who love what they do.

So if you are somehow not succeeding with your business, struggling to land contracts, not making as much as you'd like to make, i'm here to say, just like the music band toto says, "hold the line... jobs aren't always on time" 🙂 You can make it!

Let us know what type of business you are in, and maybe make your profile public and i, just like many other members here, would love to help,

[gavintfn]

1st. Regarding scams and running a solo agency... I would have no idea.  I do not run an agency. But I can confidently assume that anyone who does run an agency would not be running it for long if they allowed the outside scams to affect their existing staff's/contractors in the same manner as upwork does. 

2nd. My frustration is not with my inability to land contracts, I do not have high expectations for upwork,as such I only invest a small percentage of my "new client aquisition" time on platform.    I am not frustrated at all.  I simply prefer people who are frustrated to be aware. 

 I do agree with nearly everything Radia L said and agree scams exist in all walks of life.   I do not believe scammers are the problem. Freelancers can be educated on how to avoid being scammed.  Scammers eventually move on to the next scam when the current one is not paying off. You both aparently missed my point.

Money laundering  by way of fake clients using a stolen credit cards to pay 15 fake freelancer profiles that they control, absolutely would provide profit for upwork on numerous levels. It is a self contained opperation where clients and freelancers do not complain and upwork receives a 10% washer's fee for turning a blind eye.

As shown in the 2022 report upwork provisioned (ie. paid out in the form of losses) $25+ million during the year 2022.  If upworks losses associated with fraud, totaled less than 25+ million, there would be no need to account for the unused portion of the provision, as the difference would simply be gross profit.  As upwork does not riemburse freelancer victims of scams, and does not return client's payments made to fraudulent freelancers,   its likely a large portion of that loss came from client payment chargebacks after freelancers were already paid.  Or in other words the credit card owner's bank charged back the funds paid to upwork because the card was stolen. The thief created a client account, or used an existing one they gained access to, to created completely fictious job posts,then logged in with fictious or purchased freelancer, applied to their own fictious job, and hired themselves, strictly as a means by which to pay themselves with the stolen credit card.

Why else would there be a market for upwork accounts?

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by the way VCC stands fro virtual credit card.......


 Alper, I respect your oppinion and appreciate that you have a positive outlook on the situation. However, I am curious as to why you have requested that i make my profile public twice.

[yofazza]

I do not believe scammers are the problem. Freelancers can be educated on how to avoid being scammed.  Scammers eventually move on to the next scam when the current one is not paying off. You both aparently missed my point.

Yes you can say scammers are not the problem, because a more "aggressive" education (which also have been suggested even before the post I linked above btw.) could cut the scammer's food source and eventually stop them all. But back again, no profit by doing that, only extra cost/effort, although education should be the most efficient way compared to tech-solutions that could be more costly and wouldn't make the scammers give up easily when they still see a lot of 'uneducated marks' that can give them hundreds or even thousands on each succesful scam.

upwork receives a 10% washer's fee

That's possible, but we know that the real card owners will most likely eventually realize that their card were used and file a chargeback.

#1 -  In cases where the laundering really happen between fake client and fake freelancer where the freelancer managed to withdraw the money and run before the chargeback, Upwork pay.

#2 - If it happens between scamming client and honest-clueless freelancer (telling them to buy/pay something outside), the freelancer pay (Upwork gets nothing).

Upwork could get a "washer's fee" on cases where the card owner doesn't dispute, or if the dispute is denied by the bank. I'm guessing this rarely happens. 

They quick on financial-banning the freelancer on the first sign of chargeback to prevent #1. For #2, they didn't care. Even today we can see new victims on years-old scam.

[gavintfn]

So to summaraize its clear that there are 3 distinct types of upwork money FKery happenening....

1. Scams that pull freelancers off platform, and get them to make poor decisions....
2.Fake client accounts hiring fake freelancing accounts for money laundering purposes.
3. Virtual credit card fraud where fake client account pays fake freelancer account, upwork fronts the money to py the freelancer and never gets the payment from the client VCC.

The one that still gets me is why real freelancers are doing actual work for fake clients..... No one is netting anything there. Any thoughts?

[yofazza]

Number 2 and 3 is possible but I think they rarely happen. What usually happen is the scamming of freelancers, the freelancer's money that are being taken where Upwork lose (and get) nothing.

And what do you mean by "why real freelancers are doing actual work for fake clients..... No one is netting anything"?

[6bfcdaf8]

I know many people complain about chargebacks. Never happened to me yet, but also the reasons, in my opinion, why chargebacks happen were very different than what you have said. Now that i'm thinking about the case a person with a stolen cc, making themselves both client and the freelancer and paying themselves to wash stolen cc money... I have a simple question. How do you pass freelancer ID Verification which includes a government id and a video call?

The reason i suggested you make your profile public is that so we can see it and provide feedbacks on how to improve it, as i thought you were coming from a point of frustration caused by not being able to make as much as you would on this platform

[gavintfn]

Did you not look at the links i posted? you can buy preverified accounts.  see responses in links
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I'm getting the impression you are just playing devils advocate and always need to have the last word.   As you claim to be such an experienced developer with sooooo much experience, I'm surprised you do not know to search blackhat forums for scam/exploit tactics, or for that matter how to google effectively (dont worry.....most people don't)

[6bfcdaf8]

I also would like to emphasize... When people say "upwork is not profitable, so they have to do some sneaky stuff" i believe they are missing one point. Being profitable is a choice for companies who make money. Upwork makes a lot of money, but when money is cheap, growing is more important. So they probably spent all their money to fuel growth. When money is expensive, profitability is more important and there is not much hope for growth so you stop burning money where there's not going to be much return, and show some profit to investors.

[yofazza]

That's true. I often bring up the example of a startup here, a product marketplace, that began around Elance times. They never focus on profit, they allow people selling and buying for free,  until recently (a few months ago) when they started applying tiny fees on every transaction. Looking at how many transactions they have today, these tiny fees might finally cover their entire month's expenses in just a few days, they can begin their profiting months after nearly 2 decades.

All they did in the past years (besides burning money to add features and increase member base) was getting new investors to burn their money, where they get them, including from a number of banks abroad.

I see that their plan works, whereas I don't think Upwork's plan does, because Upwork needs to change direction quite significantly by no longer focusing on 'high quality', by opening the gate and milk the member base, because they realize their previous business model has no future. I don't know though, how long that can last, and what other contingency plans they must already have.

People will continue selling and build reputation on "product marketplaces", but I'm sure there are many people like me who view "freelance marketplace" as merely a broker that only deserve a broker's fee. 

[gavintfn]

The terms "money is cheap" and "money is expensive" are used in relation to BORROWING MONEY and are in no way  associated with deciding to be profitable or not.  There is a reason that the IRS audits tax filings of businesses that claim yearly consecutive losses......its because intentionally pushing a company financially into the red in the interest and benefit of the business, for whatever reason, also reduces its corporate tax liability, and constitues tax evasion. Be it for the motivation of evding taxes, or "growth"    Upwork was $89mil in the red last year.  Upwork is publically traded company that is monitored by the SEC and has shareholders, so no, its not ok to prioritize growth over profitability especially to the point of an $89 million loss .     I would love to see what what would happen if you said that in person to  an auditorium full of Upwork shareholders. I'd also love to see what type of charges the SEC would slap your company with for tax evasion if you declared that you pushed your publically traded company into the red, causing devaluation of the stock price and investor losses in the interest of growth....lol. 

Great input! <- sarcasm

[6bfcdaf8]

So lets say you have a factory that produces toothpaste. You make a lot of money, but rather than distributing that money to shareholders as profit, you decide to invest in building a second factory. Or another example would be i have a huge factory and i do t have enough customers. I still make money but i see potential to make more money, i decide to launch a huge and expensive marketng campaign, because money is cheap, big corporates borrow, and hire so people have more money to buy premium toothpaste. These things happen. Most startups havent profited a penny for many years just because of that. Or i'm missing something but i havent found what im missing within your response

[gavintfn]

Yeah, I can see you just argue to argue, and while I do have the time to teach you accounting, basic tax law, and all of the other subjects you continually argue with me about... I just dont want to.   Feel free to have the last word.  I'm out.

[lysis10]

I think it would be better to focus on yourself tbh. I get that Upwork quality has gone downhill this year especially with the ChatGPT junk, but focusing on what everyone else is doing is just a road to wasted time and frustration. Focus on yourself and bring home a bag. Let Upwork deal with Upwork things that don't involve you.