A question about Payment Protection

[betelge]

Recently I had my first non-paying client after years on Upwork.

It was just a small 5h hourly project for a client with a varified payment method. He was friendly, and seemed completely normal, but once the work was done, the client disappeared.

Now I've been told that the verified payment method failed, that the money is getting refunded, and that the Payment Protection doesn't apply to this case. The reason is that they consider the client to have committed fraud, but the only description I've been given of this fraud so far, is that the client can't be contacted.

It seems that the client's disapperance, means that he broke the ToS, and that then through no fault of my own, makes my work inellegible for Payment Protection.

I'd just like some clarification so I know what the situation is in the future. If a client with a varified payment method, phone number, that seems completely normal, simply disappears, does that invalidate Payment Protection?

Or was Customer Service just not able to explain the situation to me clearly? Is there perhaps other reasons they beleive the client did something wrong, that they're not telling me about? In that case, how was I supposed to know that in advance?

[the-right-writer]

There is a lot of confusion over "payment protection" and whether it exists.

The scammer client used a stolen credit card number. They use the number before the owner and the owner's bank know the number is stolen. Upwork calls it verified payment when they charge three, tiny, reversible charges on the number. However, once the owner notifies the bank the card number is being used illegally, all the money disappears, because the poor person who was a victim, is not going to pay you for work they never wanted. This is another reason not to trust the client because they are "verified." It means nothing.

The client stealing a credit card number, and scamming you is the goal. They may have used the same number to scam numerous people and businesses, as they use it as fast as possible before being discovered. No one, including Upwork, will protect you. I do not feel there is any payment protection at all.

Yes, they always say the same thing, and no one has ever collected through Upwork for these situations. The facts are, you worked for nothing, and there is no compensation. Yes, it means if you encounter another scammer client with a stolen card number, the very same thing would happen. It's why I put "payment protection" from Upwork in quotations.

You don't know in advance. That's why vetting is so crucial, but it doesn't protect everyone, as you have discovered. You can do everything correctly, and still lose. Another reason I consider there to be no "payment protection." It's also another reason I blew so many connects by letting them die. I'm not going to work for pennies or be scammed, so no jobs.

I wish I could provide some sense of security, but there is none. Freelancers must assume every client is a scammer, looking to steal, until proven otherwise.

So, you are vetting, using all of your skills to detect scams, and it happens anyway? You are on your own. I do not say that lightly. Upwork can be a very dangerous place, and no one should use the platform without understanding the truth.

[yofazza]

From what I've seen recently (for about a year), it doesn't have to be a stolen card.

Real clients with real non-scammy jobs using legitimate cards, who changes their mind and files a chargeback, is considered fraud, and the freelancer will be denied protection for being involved in fraud (or sometimes for "using an autoclicker"). Also, this could happen months after the job is closed.

So, protection doesn't exist, at least from what I've seen in those forum posts. You can yell or beg louder and they might change their mind (proven as well).

Protection is good when they provide it, but don't count on it. They have rubber terms that they can use to deny it.

[betelge]

In the end I got a clear answer from Trust and Safety Team, and I'm genuinly surprised.

I asked if the client disappearing is in itself enough to invalidate Payment Protection, and I was told "YES". (The response was actually in capital letters.)

The logic seems to be that if the client makes the choice to not pay the freelancer for work done, the client is committing fraud against the freelancer. And since there is fraud, it makes the contract fraudulant, and according tp the ToS, Payment Proptection isn't valid for fraudulant projects.

Is this not the exact situation that the protection is for? I'm confused here. What's a hypothetical situation where the protection would be valid?

The only thing I can think of is the subtle difference between a client that is unhappy with the work and refuses to pay (not fraud, but disagreement), and a client that is happy with the work but still refuses to pay (fraud).

As the cherry on top, I was told by the Trust and Safety Team representative, that I was talking to for the very first time, that he was going to ignore any more correspondence from me.

[rekasesh]

From the various posts on the forum, it's becoming clear that payment protection on hourly jobs is not ironclad as it was in previous years.

Worse still, clients can seek refund on fixed or claim chargeback on hourly upto six months after the project is over. 

[the-right-writer]

Every freelancer should accept that we are on our own, and act accordingly. I recognize, that vetting of the clients and jobs leads to my situation (and many others) of finding no legitimate jobs that offer more than pennies. Better than being scammed or work for pennies, when other avenues yield much more with no scams. I don't care about the connects, I care about the time I spend, carefully crafting the proposals.

[the-right-writer]

As the cherry on top, I was told by the Trust and Safety Team representative, that I was talking to for the very first time, that he was going to ignore any more correspondence from me.

You received that response because Upwork was done with you. Oh, wait, the problem was not addressed? Oh, well, closed! It does not matter if the situation has been resolved, no matter how serious. When Upwork is  through with you, or does not want to talk to the cogs in the wheel, they simply claim the situation solved, and nothing you can do, short of litigation, will change it.

[feed_my_eyes]

I would copy this post to the Upwork pages on X, Facebook and Linked In, and see if you get a more reasonable response there. 

[ravi_iitian]

Perhaps the following should be added explicitly:

The following cases do not qualify for payment protection:

• If after initial verification of the client’s billing method it is discovered that the billing method is fraudulent such as a stolen credit card
• If the client is unresponsive when their payment method fails
• If the client uses chargeback

[feed_my_eyes]

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Ravindra B wrote:

Perhaps the following should be added explicitly:

The following cases do not qualify for payment protection:

• If after initial verification of the client’s billing method it is discovered that the billing method is fraudulent such as a stolen credit card
• If the client uses chargeback

---

Those are both situations that are supposed to be covered by hourly payment protection. If they no longer qualify, Upwork may as well just tell everyone that they have no protection. 

[ravi_iitian]

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Christine A wrote:

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Ravindra B wrote:

Perhaps the following should be added explicitly:

The following cases do not qualify for payment protection:

• If after initial verification of the client’s billing method it is discovered that the billing method is fraudulent such as a stolen credit card
• If the client uses chargeback

---

Those are both situations that are supposed to be covered by hourly payment protection. If they no longer qualify, Upwork may as well just tell everyone that they have no protection. 

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Precisely.

[betelge]

In this case I was told that it's enough for the client to be unresponsive when their payment method fails.

There was never a word of a charge back or stolen card.

[the-right-writer]

As Christine said, there is supposed to be protection, but we have seen in the forum, and I have worked with freelancers that have been cheated.

Yes, there are multiple ways to lose.

[wlyonsatl]

All of the above, if true and accurate, explains why Upwork expects its costs for fraud to drop more than 80% in the future compared to the past.

I only do hourly contracts and have never had a problem with a client paying me that wasn't covered by Upwork's hourly payment protection. I'd hate to see that situation change.

[feed_my_eyes]

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Will L wrote:

All of the above, if true and accurate, explains why Upwork expects its costs for fraud to drop more than 80% in the future compared to the past.

---

That's interesting - where did you see that? 

[rekasesh]

The 6-month time limit for refund or chargeback is from their own ToS and resource pages. 

I checked it out after a freelancer complained  that their client raised a refund request 3 or 4 months after a fixed contract was completed with feedback. This wasn't a software or dev project where things can indeed go wrong, and a shoddy job comes to light much later when you start using the site, database or app.

I think he was a graphic artist or SEO guy, don't remember.

So, you can do everything right, and your client can go from ethical and decent to greedy for free work.

[wlyonsatl]

That's based on the huge drop in the company's Provision for Transaction Losses, which is detailed on Page 3 of the company's 10-Q filing for the three months ended Sept. 30, 2023.

You can find it at sec.gov.

[hiroshixd]

There is a way to make a collective complaint to upwork, this is really tiring, they say that they charge the customer in advance, and that is false.