Geo-location discrimination for gigs which do not require exact location to be able to work

[natashaabadash]

Hello all,

I feel an urgency to raise this question of geo-location discrimination that is happening from the very beginning of the freelance world.

Freelancers from third-world counties (or those locations that could be even micro-discriminated) are fighting every day to be paid fairly and correctly.

At this moment I do not care about laws, since laws are made after the established need for them, so this issue will someday be reflected in legal systems.

But before that happens, we need to discuss this matter and do some explaining.

What Upwork could do, for gigs that do not require a physical presence at a certain location, is to hide freelancers' location and suspend freelancer search based on a location she/he is at the moment and location as a requirement.

Why?

Because, and I'm sure I'll invent the wheel again here, clients are pitching the lowest rates through blatant location requirements in their job ads. Moldova, Bosnia, Montenegro, Serbia, Ukraine... whatever third world country to do their massive high-end quality projects for 2 dollars. 

So, highly intentional and transparent.

I'm sure we cannot just easily get rid of cheap clients as much as we cannot get rid of cheap freelancers, but can we at least make some changes towards fair pay rates and end this digital modern **Edited for community guidelines** everybody pretends to not see?

Whatever that you all think this IS discrimination. We are struggling to be paid for wonderful and hard work ONLY because we live in some **Edited for community guidelines** country. Not to mention that some of us cannot purchase regular software subscriptions but much more expensive options through resellers. Hardware is always more expensive for us, and the cost of living, in general, is just beyond. Should we charge more then? Why da hell not!

Anyways... I don't expect anything to be honest. Not from bot contributors or cheap freelancers let alone Upwork as a platform. Just needed to seed a thought and vent a bit.

[prestonhunter]

You use the word "discrimination" as if it is a bad thing.

Discrimination is nearly always a good thing.

It is a synonym for "discernment." It means making a decision, or judgment.

For example, if you wanted to eat good sushi, you would use discrimination to choose what restaurant to go to. A Japanese restaurant? An American fast food restaurant? The food court at the mall?

Upwork is a service that clients use to find, hire and pay freelancers. Clients like to be able to know if a freelancer is a writer or computer programmer. An experienced pro or a beginner. If the freelancer lives in their country, or somewhere else. If they have good reviews from previous clients, or not. Etc.

This is a good thing.

When you use Upwork as a client, you can search for freelancers based on various factors, including broad geographic region or specific country.

Upwork does not make any connection between geographic location and pay rate.

I am not sure if you are actually recommending that Upwork change anything. It sounds like you are simply concerned that some clients may want to focus their hiring on specific countries. For what it is worth, when I post jobs, I intentionally make the job posts open to people in all countries. I don't speak for all clients. I only speak for myself. But I think most clients are open to hiring freelancers from anywhere in the work.

[natashaabadash]

Omg.
Would you please not copy and paste your useless and wrong answers from previous similar questions where you also missed the point?
It’s interesting how you are gaslighting people here with “discrimination is a good thing”.
Until you get to taste your own medicine…

[petra_r]

---

wrote:

clients are pitching the lowest rates through blatant location requirements in their job ads. Moldova, Bosnia, Montenegro, Serbia, Ukraine... whatever third world country to do their massive high-end quality projects for 2 dollars. 

---

There is no such thing as "location requirement" (Except for US only and UK only job posts)

Not one of the countries you have listed above is a third world country... And I've never seen a "massive high-end quality project" for $2.

With such hyperbole you lose all credibility and your point, such as might have been, goes down the drain.

**Edited for Community Guidelines**

[natashaabadash]

Oh if YOU say you haven’t seen such a thing then it must me that what you said is right.

Are you a freelancer by any chance?
Because a guy before you is not and has very interesting option you might be interested in exploring.

[petra_r]

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Natasa K wrote:
Are you a freelancer by any chance?

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If course I am, as is Preston. Look at our profiles.

[natashaabadash]

Even worse!
I’m appalled by lack of understanding and compassion for your colleagues freelancers. Are you all trying this hard to not comprehend a message here? There’s another freelancer who talked about similar issues and you all disregarded everything she/he said and tear lungs trying to explain what is going on.

Is there anyone else who would kindly share their perspective except for usual on demand people jumping into every conversation as if it is paid per answer.
And if it is may you share your rate?

[moonraker]

I live in a 3rd world country and I have little difficulty finding jobs that pay well. 

I'm certainly not a 'digital **Edited for Community Guidelines** ' 

[natashaabadash]

What you wanna say? You have little difficulty finding well paid job?

Is that glass almost half full or almost not so empty?

Never have I asked if it is difficult finding job well or not well paid.
My concern is that clients, knowing what are third world countries seek freelancers specifically from those countries hoping they will not have displeasure in negotiating lower rates since those freelancers are soooo cheap they will except anything. As an excuse for not willing to pay what is ok they will always pull out country we’re living in. This is a vicious cycle! We cannot put a stop to that alone! Does Upwork also not want to get more from our rates?!

This is beyond….

[colettelewis]

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Natasa K wrote:
What you wanna say? You have little difficulty finding well paid job?

Is that glass almost half full or almost not so empty?

Never have I asked if it is difficult finding job well or not well paid.
My concern is that clients, knowing what are third world countries seek freelancers specifically from those countries hoping they will not have displeasure in negotiating lower rates since those freelancers are soooo cheap they will except anything. As an excuse for not willing to pay what is ok they will always pull out country we’re living in. This is a vicious cycle! We cannot put a stop to that alone! Does Upwork also not want to get more from our rates?!

This is beyond….

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___________________________

While I think it is deplorable that Upwork has allowed  geo-blocking in the US and UK, which means that providers living anywhere else in the world will not see some jobs from these countries or if they do, will be blocked from applying for them. That is what geo-blocking means.

However, if a client prefers to find  providers from countries with lower living costs and who can offer more competitive rates than their western  counterparts, then that is entirely their prerogative, and it must be working for Upwork, otherwise the company would probably put an end to it.

Clients who know what they are doing will hire the person/people they think best suited to their needs, regardless of where they come from, and who will not necessarily be cheap.

[prestonhunter]

Natasa: You say that I missed the point of your post.

Perhaps other readers of this thread also missed the point. I thought that you were saying that Upwork clients can see what countries freelancers are from and can search for freelancers based on country, and you don't like that. You have mentioned pay rates. But Upwork does not tie pay rates to geographic location. Freelancers set their own rates.

If that was not your main point, or if there is something else that you would like to emphasize, please feel free to clarify.

[natashaabadash]

If you have any difficulties in understanding my message the first time I strongly suggest that you read again.

[prestonhunter]

Nobody here was deliberately trying to distort or misunderstand the message you wanted to convey.

You wrote some more, and now I understand your concern:

You are saying that clients may indeed want to hire freelancers from Serbia, but regard Serbia as a third-world country, and want to pay freelancers who live there less per hour, based on their perception of local economics.

That is probably true for some clients, and not true for others.

That probably happens with freelancers living in every part of the world.

We see many posts from freelancers living in first-world countries who complain about freelancers living in other places undercutting the pay rates that can afford to work for.

I am sorry if this frustrates anybody. Upwork is a global platform. Freelancers do indeed work for very different rates. Some freelancers base their rates, at least in part, on where they live others don't. Some clients make pay rate assumptions or decisions based on where freelancers live. Some don't. Upwork doesn't make those decisions.

[kochubei_valeria]

Hi Natasa and others,

Thanks for taking time to share your suggestion. I'm not aware of any plans to start hiding location on freelancers' and agencies' profiles.

Upwork does not allow discrimination against color, race, or national origin or other protected characteristics. If a client expresses a preference in a job post that is discriminatory, they are in violation of our Site Terms of Use and we will take action and remove those job posts 

The terms of any contract, including the rate, are for clients and freelancers to decide upon together. Any freelancer who is not satisfied with the rate offered can negotiate a higher rate or find a project they consider to be more suitable. Clients in turn can search and hire based on the freelancer’s location because we recognize that some projects may require localized knowledge, work within certain time zones, or other factors that require the freelancer be in a specific location.

Finally, I'd like to note that few posts and replies to them have been edited or removed from this thread as they were in violation of our Community Guidelines and values. Please, be mindful of the Community Guidelines and respectful toward other users when posting.

[natashaabadash]

Thank you all,
I am aware we are living in a high paced environment online and offline. But it takes so little effort to just try to understand what someone is trying to say.

I know this is not the place for me to seek any action, thought or even empathy.
I’m considering my try as a trace in internet history and that’s all. Of course you’ll somehow find a way to lock this thread or whatever and I honestly don’t mind it.

Good luck to you all.

[2e395a62]

Just two points here to consider:

a) About your initial message

I used to be a university teacher. Whenever all students passed the exam except one, then this very one had a problem of not understanding my lectures. Whenever all students failed to pass - it meant that it was me who had a problem. Your emotions in the initial post made it slightly unclear, that's it. It is advisable to think twice before blaming the recipient for wrongly understanding the message. 

b) On rates for freelancers 

A global economy has its consequences - one of them is that the options for getting something cheaper are greater than ever. I do not know where you live or work, but I could easily bet that at least 50% of all items around you were produced in the far East. I come from a new EU member state, so I can relate to some extent to your concerns. But clients have a strong point, too - why would they want to hire a more expensive freelancer if they can get the same quality of work for less? Due to patriotism? Maybe, in some cases. Again, the famous $2.00 job might be not worth a minute of a time for a freelancer living in central London (tends to be an expensive neighborhood), but it could save a day for someone in a developing country (tend to have a low cost of living).

I remember when we did relocations of full-timers: when we relocated a person from someplace in Latin America to London, he was more than happy to see his salary doubled. It didn't work that well when the direction of the relocation was from London to some developing country, accompanied by the offer of reduced salary due to the increased buying power (equals lower costs of living). 

We've got what we've got: we can offer lower pay rates to win jobs or better quality for similar pay. I cannot blame someone to ask for a lower price due to whatever reason - being freelancers allows us to use the "free" part of the term to say "no". 

[natashaabadash]

Thank you teacher! You gave really great lecture.

For the rest of your response, I absolutely understand economy, capitalism and globalization. I know how things work both ways, as an employee as well as employer. Really don’t need more explanation on these subjects.

However, considering all of this, my suggestion would be beneficial to all of us. Being you a first, second or third world country resident or Upwork itself. There would be much less undercutting, more dignifying salaries and more profit for UW.

But yeah…

[hglewis]

Hello Natasa!

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Natasa K wrote:
Thank you teacher! You gave really great lecture.

For the rest of your response, I absolutely understand economy, capitalism and globalization. I know how things work both ways, as an employee as well as employer. Really don’t need more explanation on these subjects.

However, considering all of this, my suggestion would be beneficial to all of us. Being you a first, second or third world country resident or Upwork itself. There would be much less undercutting, more dignifying salaries and more profit for UW.

But yeah…

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No there would not!

I read your initial posting more than once.

What you point out has merit but is the same old story since the dawn of time. 

Regardless if it is on or offline, the marketplace has always been "Buy Low, Sell High!" 

It knows no boundaries, e.g., wages, pricing, person, gender, country, qualifications, etc.

What the buyer wants, at a price they're willing to pay, and where they can find it, the cheapest will never end.

No law, edict, or platform can change the nature of a buyer.

I don't like it either, but after close to 30 years in business, the buyer always wants more for less.

Is it fair? No. But the buyer doesn't care about my credentials, my experience, my abilities, or my rates.

They only care about one thing. "Who will give me what I want at the lowest price!"

[natashaabadash]

“No there would not!”

You missed the opportunity to explain why.

Instead you just explained basic laws of demand and supply, which I by the way, clearly understand. Worker rights never crossed your mind? I feel your frustration, I am frustrated as well, but rational judgment won’t hurt in attempts to make thing better.

[hglewis]

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Natasa K wrote:
“No there would not!”

You missed the opportunity to explain why.

Instead you just explained basic laws of demand and supply, which I by the way, clearly understand. Worker rights never crossed your mind? I feel your frustration, I am frustrated as well, but rational judgment won’t hurt in attempts to make thing better.

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Oh, I clearly get it!

Worker rights fall under employer requirements. Upwork is not their employer.

Those who freelance can post at any rate they want. There is no restriction.

So, where's your argument going?

[natashaabadash]

Geez, nobody is saying Upwork is an employer. I’m saying Upwork can help their clients (we are their clients) getting better working conditions and help themselves getting higher profit along the way.

[2e395a62]

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Natasa K wrote:
 Worker rights never crossed your mind?

Natasa, we are not workers - we are businesses. If we cannot find clients for the rate we need to survive, we go bancrupt. Nobody would share a tear. But if we persuade enough clients that what we offer is worth its weight in gold, we win. Big time. 

If I remember correctly, you are the PS magician. If so, you should feel lucky living in Belgrad instead of, say, NYC. Your images speak for themselves, no one cares if you speak with an accent or make a mistake or two in your writing. You can offer the same quality of work as your competitior living on Manhattan - the difference is you can offer it for half the price, and I bet you know that already. And yes - some clients will come to you asking for 1/2 of the price they were quoted by the NYC based freelancer. Now - who should be furious about globalization? 😉

[natashaabadash]

If that could actually be true that would be awesome 🤩 to have half the price NYC artist have while being from Serbia? I don’t want to say it would be a dream come true but… you know. That is still in the dream department unfortunately.

And edit:
Yeah, I realize we are not workers but businesses. But are we? All of us? You sure? Are we really not workers? Sometimes I feel like we are workers but with an obligation to sort out our taxes by ourselves. And that’s basically all.

Thank you for your beautiful wishes!

[prestonhunter]

re: "Really don’t need more explanation on these subjects."

This thread is part of the public Community Forum.

Participants in this thread are not necessarily explaining something that you don't already know. Comments posted here are useful for other people who read the thread.

re: "my suggestion would be beneficial to all of us"

Is your suggestion simply that Upwork stop providing information about where freelancers live?

[prestonhunter]

re: "I’m saying Upwork can help their clients (we are their clients)"

Freelancers are not Upwork's clients.

Freelancers are not Upwork's customers.

Clients who post jobs and hire freelancers - those are Upwork's customers.

Freelancers are a part of the platform. Freelancers are Upwork's partners on earning money.

Clients are where Upwork's money comes from.

Clients provide their credit cards, and Upwork charges those credit cards to get its money.

As someone who uses Upwork primarily as a freelancer, I want the needs and interests of clients to be of paramount importance to Upwork. I benefit when clients are happy with the platform and continue using it.

[natashaabadash]

And there’s a mistake right there.

[hglewis]

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Natasa K wrote:
“ Is your suggestion simply that Upwork stop providing information about where freelancers live?”

Yes, only in cases where that information is redundant. I am digital artist for example. I can work from my home, vacation location or my friend’s place in Canada, or I might just be digital nomad and spend every few months in a different countries. My living and spending conditions vary in that case. But most importantly, it is not important for a client to be located in a specific place.

On the other hand, when I work as a photographer it most important to be on a desired location (well, 99% of the time if it’s not something that can be a stock material or could be shipped to photographer). In that instance it IS important to disclose a location.

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Ohhh! Now it all comes out. 

You want a "Selective" location choice, but only as it suits the job.

Not going to happen.

[natashaabadash]

And why so mister?

[hglewis]

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Natasa K wrote:
And why so mister?

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The platform is not going to do that. 

[a_lipsey]

@Natasa,

This conversation comes up every now and then, and quite often it's instigated by a freelancer who feels this would help their business; however, they don't often consider or care (not saying this is you) how it impacts other businesses or clients. In fact, many suggestions for Upwork to change things arise from a freelancer realizing that they need such-and-such for their business and they think Upwork should institute it sitewide. 

Most of the time, and as such in the case of your suggestion, these changes have a broader impact than you might be aware of. That's okay. I came to the forum many years ago wanting Upwork to allow us to ask clients questions when their job descriptions were very vague. Of course, I was rightfully schooled in why that's a bad idea. 

My response is then to make that part of my screening. If clients don't provide enough information, then I don't bother applying. Throughout the years I have taken numerous suggestions I wish Upwork would implement and simply made it part of my business model to vet clients for X or make sure that Y happens before I accept a client, etc. 

My point is that you don't need to have Upwork implement something sitewide to figure out what works best for you (either in what clients post or do not post) and make that a rule for your business. And you will find the implementation of such rules much faster and with a faster payoff simply making it part of your process versus trying to get Upwork to do anything. 

Food for thought. 

[natashaabadash]

“ Is your suggestion simply that Upwork stop providing information about where freelancers live?”

Yes, only in cases where that information is redundant. I am digital artist for example. I can work from my home, vacation location or my friend’s place in Canada, or I might just be digital nomad and spend every few months in a different countries. My living and spending conditions vary in that case. But most importantly, it is not important for a client to be located in a specific place.

On the other hand, when I work as a photographer it most important to be on a desired location (well, 99% of the time if it’s not something that can be a stock material or could be shipped to photographer). In that instance it IS important to disclose a location.

[BojanS]

Hi All, 

This thread will be closed from further replies. As a gentle reminder, please be mindful of the Community Guidelines when posting in the Community.

Thank you for participating in this thread.