Is Upwork creating a "spec" site where freelancers are subject to the whim of the client for payment

[#1]

I'm going to be starting a new topic in a moment, but I wanted to reply to this. There is a significant question about Upwork's support of freelancers. I just finished (a few weeks ago) a month-long project. I added 20,000 words, Yep, you got that right...20,000 words to a 14,000 word, very primitive manuscript. I do this kind of work a lot. It's not unsual for someone to want to bulk up their manuscript, but it is hard to do well. 

The client, from **edited for Community Guidelines** decided they would reject the manuscript. Now their job posting, and our agreement, was that they would allow me to use my own judgement regarding what the manuscript needed. With 25 years of experience, I know what a manuscript needs. Because they rejected the manuscript, we went to "arbitration."

For those of you who've not been through that process, you are required to make a payment of $275, and then post (on adr.org, if you are interested) various documents. In my case, the "arbitrator" (placing this in quotes since she was so inadequate) in her award decided that the client did Not have to pay me. She cited no legal prevailing authority, or any difficulty with the manuscript, which I had rewritten and added to. The arbitrator noted in her award to the client that she would not make me REPAY the intial payment (about $3,000 before Upwork's 20% deduction). Hoo hay! As I pointed out to her in my postings DURING the process, the client had no right to Request the return of the initial payment, since we were past the 30-day period. Upwork's rules do not allow for payments to be refunded after 30 days. Thus, it would...initially...appear that the "arbitrator" is being Solomon-like and cutting the baby in half. Oh, so fair, you might think? But no. As noted, the "arbitrator" VIOLATED Upwork's own rules by even considering the client's request for return of the full amount, and by citing it as part of her arbitration award. Further, the adr.org Requires that all parties be served, via email, all loaded documents. I pointed out to the "arbitrator that I had not been served via email the intital statement from the client, and the arbitrator also ignored that. It is my belief that Upwork forcing freelancers into arbitration, and forcing freelancers to incure additional costs and delayed release of payments...if they are "awarded" the payment from the client, violates the laws of the United States. When you do work, in the United States, you are paid for your work. Do any of us have a "will-work-on-spec" on our profiles? No. I would note that in my feedback on the job, I posted that I should have not worked with anyone in **edited for Community Guidelines**. However, I have a degree in the social sciences and tend to work with a wide-range of people, especially from other cultures. It's something I usually enjoy. Regardless, the POINT here is this: Are we working on spec or not? Should we be forced into "arbitration" or is it Upwork's responsibility to hold client's responsible for their payments when the work is done. Please note, I had an agreement with that client that they would pay me within 24-hours of providing them the work. I do this, specifically, because I do Not work on spec. I know how good I am and if I provide the work, I cannot get it back. This policy of mine prevents abuse, in almost all cases. Further, in 25 years, I have never had a client unhappy with my work or ask for any changes. Imagine that this happened with a client from **edited for Community Guidelines**. You figure.

In closing, are we working on spec here at Upwork, and don't know it? Do we have to PAY in order to be paid? Your thoughts, please.

[#2]

Hi Tonya, 

You asked me about the "award" with the arbitration situation. Here is the clarification. 

We went throught the "dispute" process with Upwork. A woman by the name of Kendra was the mediator. She collected information from both of us. I felt she was very nice, seemed to be truly attempting to find a solution.  That said, Kendra made no determination except to state that since we couldn't agree (I wanted to be paid; client didn't want to pay me), the only solution was arbitration. This required a $275 payment from me to start the arbitration; client also pays $275; Upwork also pays $275.  Some documents were provided to the adr.org site (the arbitration association's site). In her decision, the arbitrator made no reference to any of the points, which I had made Including my point that I do not work on spec and that the agreement was payment within 24 hours of manuscript being submitted to the client. She cited no prevailing law or any criticisms of my process. (I had exchanged more than 90 emails with the client over the course of a month-plus in order to be sure I was on track and to ask for clarification on various points; the client repeatedly asked for additional work, which I did.) In her "ruling," the aribtrator stated ONLY this: she would not make me Refund the original payment of $2,750 (which according to Upwork's rules should not have even been considered by her because we were past the 30-day time limit for refunds. She then made the determination that the client would have the $2,750 due to me, and still in escrow, returned to them. Again, absolutely no prevailing law was cited, nor any rationale or reason for her decision. Zero. Nada. Nothing. She did not, as I have noted in previous postings here, note to the client that Any use of any material I wrote is copyrighted and owned by myself pending full payment by the client. Thus, should the client use any of this material, they would be violating my copyright and it is also quite possible that Upwork would be a party to that copyright violation because Upwork has not (I am presuming here) provided the client the information that all the writing done is owned by myself. I hope this clarifies for you. I think it is very important that Upwork change it's policies on freelancers. I believe that most don't bother to pursue arbitration because of the cost and simply "write it off," as the article link I posted previously, to the Fortune article, notes.

[#3]

This has been an interesting insight into the arbitration process and I thank you for sharing your experiences. I've never had any disputes (knock wood) but I've often wondered how such cases are settled. In my own category (graphic design) I don't know how an arbitrator would be in a position to make a fair judgment, since there's such a subjective element. If I think that my design is good and the client thinks it's bad, then any dispute would probably end with a 50/50 settlement. I've always felt that the best way to protect myself is to have extensive conversations about expectations with the client before I even accept a job, and walk away if I have any misgivings whatsoever (about the project or about the client's character). I often worry that I'm being overly cautious and about whether I've turned down some perfectly good opportunities along the way, but then I read posts like this in the forum and become even more cautious. 

On the other hand, I think that the article you linked to might be somewhat misleading. Again, after reading many of the posts in this very forum, it's painfully obvious that there are huge numbers of freelancers who are simply unskilled and unprepared - if not outright scammers themselves - so I very much doubt that the clients were the culprits in every case cited in the statistics. It works both ways.

[#4]

I don't know how an arbitrator would be in a position to make a fair judgment, since there's such a subjective element. 

Thanks for your thoughts. I agree with you about this being a "subjective" situation. That said, I have a very long history of perfect work with my industry. As I noted to the arbitrator, not one time...EVER...has anyone EVER rejected my work. I'm an excellent writer and work hard for my clients. You can see reviews from a cardiologist and a stock broker (recent jobs) by checking my profile. 

I have noted in other postings (here) that Upwork has a problem. That problem is that clients are treated as "some people are more equal than others"; i.e., freelancers are just as important and getting paid is not a "spec" situation. The final project I provided the client could have been published; what they gave me to start with could not have been published. 

As I understand it, Upwork is taking steps to verify freelancers with video and a govt issued identity. I read that they are verified 44,000 freelancers. That doesn't actually seem like very many for a site this large. To that point, you mentioned that there are lots of scammers. Yes, I am sure there are. But...the client can...as far as I'm concerened...easily tell who is a scammer and who is not. Thanks for your thoughts, you were much nicer than most of them here. For some reason, there seems to be a lot of attacking me and that is baffling. They also seem to think that the job must be badly done. Apparetly none of them have ever seen someone just mistreated because...well, because proper standards aren't being applied. Weird.

[#5]

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RJ S wrote:

 In her "ruling," the aribtrator stated ONLY this: she would not make me Refund the original payment of $2,750 (which according to Upwork's rules should not have even been considered by her because we were past the 30-day time limit for refunds.

No matter how many times you repeat this, it won't become true. A client can dispute a fixed price CONTRACT for 30 days after the last milestone.

[#6]

Actually, this was a point made by UPWORK'S OWN Dispute person. So there...**edited for Community Guidelines**

[#7]

Hi,

Under Upwork's policies, the client rejected my manuscript. I believe that they rejected it because of their own lack of knowledge. In other words, suppose you put a diamond and a rock in front of someone and the rock was the biggest stone. Some people...might choose the rock thinking it was more valuable because it was bigger.

Moving on, Upwork's dispute resolution person collected the documents and didn't make a decision either way. She did state that it was NOT Upwork's position to determine the Quality of the work, only whether the work had been done. Under that premise, the funds should have been immediately released to me: 20,000 words had been added to a 14,000 word manuscript, as well I had a bibliography of 24 books (meaning I used 24 books as references/sources...clearly, you see a lot of work was done.). Since the client didn't want to pay me, we went to ARBITRATION at adr.org. 

Purportedly, the arbitrator read the documents (I noted there had been around 90 Upwork messages back and forth, several phone calls from the client in **edited for Community Guidelines**), and I felt that I had gone above and beyond for them. The arbitrator failed to require them to serve me the initial document. (In any legal situation, you have to be served each document or the process is invalid.) I told the arbitrator that and she didn't respond to it. She then decided, without ANY legal citation or any reference to any of the work I'd done (bad writer, blah blah blah) that she would not make me RETURN the initial amount of $2,750 (first half paid), which the client had requested along with the release of their final payment of $2,750 (which was in escrow) back to them. She DECIDED that I would not receive the final half and it would be returned to the client. It is my belief that this is in violation of US labor laws and I'm checking on this, but it may take me a while. I also, as I've written elsewhere in this particular posting on this topic, believe that Upwork cannot require freelancers to provide the clients free work: aka Upwork allows the client the opportunity for Two reviews/changes. This allows the client to be abusive, i.e., when does the freelancer ever get paid? And allows the client to be abusive...this is de facto free work.

[#8]

It would be interesting to see the transcripts for this. I think arbitration favors the freelancer heavily. To lose the entire amount without the arbitrator giving the OP something (half, even) is interesting. There has to be something that triggered the arbitrator to force the freelancer to lose it all.

[#9]

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Jennifer M wrote:

It would be interesting to see the transcripts for this. I think arbitration favors the freelancer heavily. To lose the entire amount without the arbitrator giving the OP something (half, even) is interesting. There has to be something that triggered the arbitrator to force the freelancer to lose it all.

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She did get to keep the initial $3,000 payment. 

[#10]

> She did get to keep the initial $3,000 payment. 

ooooh, I wasn't sure what was going on with the already released escrow.

> It seems possible to me that she lost it for herself with what she submitted. I have no idea what she

> wrote there, obviously, but the posts here have been long and jumbled with no paragraph breaks, a lot

> of philosophical posturing and repeated misstatements of Upwork's policies. It's certainly plausible that

> her point was simply lost in a tidal wave of words.

That's what I was thinking. It seems she thinks the arbitrators and Upwork are the same thing, and maybe wasn't cooperative. That's one reason I won my arbitration ordeal. lol Client thought he had it in the bag and didn't take it seriously.

[#11]

Jennifer,

Regarding these comments: That's what I was thinking. It seems she thinks the arbitrators and Upwork are the same thing, and maybe wasn't cooperative. That's one reason I won my arbitration ordeal. lol Client thought he had it in the bag and didn't take it seriously.

No. You are wrong. I am very aware that arbitrators and Upwork aren't the same thing. I have an excellent college education and have worked with top professionals on their projects for 25 years. I did take the arbitration seriously. The arbitrator, and I use the term loosely since this person did not provide a fair playing field (for example, failed to Require the client to serve me some documents they filed on the adr site), did not provide any reason for her decision. Had she, I would be posting it here. She did not. It seems to me, also, that those who are attacking me here and saying I must have done something wrong have an awful lot of time to spend in the "community." 

[#12]

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RJ S wrote:

Jennifer,

Regarding these comments: That's what I was thinking. It seems she thinks the arbitrators and Upwork are the same thing, and maybe wasn't cooperative. That's one reason I won my arbitration ordeal. lol Client thought he had it in the bag and didn't take it seriously.

No. You are wrong. I am very aware that arbitrators and Upwork aren't the same thing. I have an excellent college education and have worked with top professionals on their projects for 25 years. I did take the arbitration seriously. The arbitrator, and I use the term loosely since this person did not provide a fair playing field (for example, failed to Require the client to serve me some documents they filed on the adr site), did not provide any reason for her decision. Had she, I would be posting it here. She did not. It seems to me, also, that those who are attacking me here and saying I must have done something wrong have an awful lot of time to spend in the "community." 

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ok, yes college and things. I'm not sure where you're going with "served me with documents." When you first start, you're asked to upload any documents including any contracts you signed with the other party. The arbitrator takes a look at these docs and then the whole process begins. That's how it works.

[#13]

Hi, 

There aren't any transcripts. In arbitration, both sides post various documents to the adr.org site. The arbitrator can ask for other documents should they wish to. This arbitrator requested that I provide a "compare" document (which shows all the changes from the original document as highlighted text). I did this. I had added 20,000 words and had read 8 books (suggested by the client) and had a final bibliography of 24 books for the project. I decided to post this to Upwork's community, because I see again and again, that freelancers aren't paid properly but most often they have no recourse because the low amount of payment doesn't allow them to spend $275 on the arbitration fee to recover $150, for instance. My point throughout has been that Upwork should be fiercely supporting freelancers and their work. Further, I am seeing a massive number of jobs for a "book" to be written for $60 or $100, which can only mean a plagiarize-and-spin project. I believe all those jobs that are clearly, and thinly-disguised, jobs should be purged from Upwork. As well, any job posted on Upwork should adhere to minimum wage standards. I see numerous jobs for $4 an hour, ect. These jobs violate federal minimum wage standards in the US.

[#14]

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RJ S wrote:

...doesn't allow them to spend $275 on the arbitration fee

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It is $ 291

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RJ S wrote:

My point throughout has been that Upwork should be fiercely supporting freelancers and their work.

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Upwork "fiercely supports Upwork," as it should, and according to Escrow rules, can not take a side on disputes over Escrow funds.

As clients are who bring the money to Upwork, "fiercely supporting freelancers" would be dumb as ditchwater as far as a business strategy is concerned. Anyone who suggests such a thing doesn't understand the first thing about freelancing or Upwork.

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RJ S wrote:

I see numerous jobs for $4 an hour, ect. These jobs violate federal minimum wage standards in the US.

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"Minimum wage" in the USA does not apply to freelancing on a global platform. It applies to employment. Freelancing is not employment. Find someone who can patiently explain it to you.

You may wish to quietly sit in a corner and get your legal facts straight**Edited for community guidelines**with all your legal claims...

[#15]

Petra, I'm baffled that you are allowed to post given your harassing and virulent statements.

As to this:

"Minimum wage" in the USA does not apply to freelancing on a global platform. It applies to employment. Freelancing is not employment. Find someone who can patiently explain it to you.

Upwork is located in California and has to abide by US labor laws. They have to abide by US LAWS. As to being a "global" marketplace, let's look at where the money Upwork makes comes from...wanna guess that 80% is from those in the US (clients/freelancers)?

[#16]

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RJ S wrote:

Petra, I'm baffled

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Yes, that much is obvious.

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RJ S wrote:

As to this:

"Minimum wage" in the USA does not apply to freelancing on a global platform. It applies to employment. Freelancing is not employment. Find someone who can patiently explain it to you.

Upwork is located in California and has to abide by US labor laws.

---

Get someone with a lot of time and patience to explain the difference between wages (employment) and freelancing rates to you. 

It is clear that you are having real difficulties grasping the concept, but I am sure you'll eventually get it.

I know it's all very scary when you don't understand it, but I'm sure you eventually will if someone has the time and patience to help you **Edited for Community Guidelines**

[#17]

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RJ S wrote:

Petra, I'm baffled that you are allowed to post given your harassing and virulent statements.

As to this:

"Minimum wage" in the USA does not apply to freelancing on a global platform. It applies to employment. Freelancing is not employment. Find someone who can patiently explain it to you.

Upwork is located in California and has to abide by US labor laws. They have to abide by US LAWS. As to being a "global" marketplace, let's look at where the money Upwork makes comes from...wanna guess that 80% is from those in the US (clients/freelancers)?

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_______________________________

Upwork itself abides by the rules. It's an introductory site - like a dating agency. It cannot legislate how a freelancer - from all countries (this is after all a global marketplace) - runs his or her business. As far as I know, there is NO minimum wage for freelancers anywhere in the world . Freelancers choose their own rates. They are responsible for their own businesses. They are responsible for their own taxes -  and interestingly - are also responsible for the people they hire. Upwork is not a freelancer.

RJS (don't you have a name?) give it a rest. Upwork has serious legal advisors in place. However mad any of us get with its sometimes abitrary MO, this is not some cowboy outfit trying to score off naive freelancers. If you feel so strongly about this, then get some local legal advice, but you would be wasting your money. 

You had a bad experience - you clearly think you are cut above everyone on the forum - so prove it by moving on and getting over it.  

[#18]

Actually you are wrong. As soon as Upwork places conditions on "freelancers," it has changed from an "introductory" site to a different entity. You might want to follow what is happening with Lyft and Uber, for instance.

As to "get over myself," gosh, I am just amazed at the Vile and Nasty statements in this "community" forum. I'm not sure what you mean by that **edited for Community Guidelines**

[#19]

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RJ S wrote:

Hi, 

There aren't any transcripts. In arbitration, both sides post various documents to the adr.org site. The arbitrator can ask for other documents should they wish to. This arbitrator requested that I provide a "compare" document (which shows all the changes from the original document as highlighted text). I did this. I had added 20,000 words and had read 8 books (suggested by the client) and had a final bibliography of 24 books for the project. I decided to post this to Upwork's community, because I see again and again, that freelancers aren't paid properly but most often they have no recourse because the low amount of payment doesn't allow them to spend $275 on the arbitration fee to recover $150, for instance. My point throughout has been that Upwork should be fiercely supporting freelancers and their work. Further, I am seeing a massive number of jobs for a "book" to be written for $60 or $100, which can only mean a plagiarize-and-spin project. I believe all those jobs that are clearly, and thinly-disguised, jobs should be purged from Upwork. As well, any job posted on Upwork should adhere to minimum wage standards. I see numerous jobs for $4 an hour, ect. These jobs violate federal minimum wage standards in the US.

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What I mean by "trascripts" is the email messages that go back and forth as both of you answer questions. You can see each others answers in the emails you receive. There is even a phase where the two of you can respond to the claims that you see from the other side.

[#20]

Hi All,

A few posts on this thread have been edited for Community Guidelines. We encourage our Community members to be professional and respectful to one another when posting here. Please, be mindful of the Community Guidelines and avoid making personal attacks.

Thank you.

[#21]

Bojan, 

Petra, Tiffany, and Jennifer are posting vile statements about me in respones to my very lucid comments about a situation I feel is taking place on Upwork. Why aren't they banned from the community forum?

[#22]

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RJ S wrote:

As well, any job posted on Upwork should adhere to minimum wage standards. I see numerous jobs for $4 an hour, ect. These jobs violate federal minimum wage standards in the US.

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They would if they were jobs. Of course, since we're all independent contractors and not employees, there is no federal minimum wage.

[#23]

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Jennifer M wrote:

It would be interesting to see the transcripts for this. I think arbitration favors the freelancer heavily. To lose the entire amount without the arbitrator giving the OP something (half, even) is interesting. There has to be something that triggered the arbitrator to force the freelancer to lose it all.

---

It seems possible to me that she lost it for herself with what she submitted. I have no idea what she wrote there, obviously, but the posts here have been long and jumbled with no paragraph breaks, a lot of philosophical posturing and repeated misstatements of Upwork's policies. It's certainly plausible that her point was simply lost in a tidal wave of words.

[#24]

Tiffany**Edited for community guidelines**. I read your profile and someone with your writing skills, or lack thereof, shouldn't be commenting on mine. I'm an excellent writer and the posts I've written here are quite well-written. But, since you are an attorney, or have a law degree, you...like so many attorneys...seem to think you can see what you don't see. Again, the arbitrator gave no reason. And by the way, when was the last time you wrote 20,000 words in a month? And had spent half that time researching the project? Here's someone who is complaining about Upwork, as well. As you'll see, my point that most won't go to arbitration because it is too expensive given the modest payments on Upwork, generally, is on point: "There was confusion as to what was required for this project. I thought I was being hired to write/edit a 4-5 page company profile, but the client started expecting design work (I'm not a designer), designing complex diagrams and pictures and sourcing images for the logistics company's profile. He downplayed how much work it would be and then changed the project completely once I had agreed to the terms. With future clients, I hope KK is more clear upfront about what he needs, and I would definitely suggest that future freelancers charge hourly to avoid getting underpaid if the scope of the project takes a left turn."

[#25]

RJ, I'm not going to debate writing skills with you. Everyone here can read. But, I will answer one question for you: I can't recall the last month in which I wrote as little as 20,000 words. If forced to guess, I would say it was about five years ago. 

[#26]

ha ha. Yeah, right. Tiffany, since you seem to have endless amounts of time to spend in the community section, I'm assuming that you are just so great at writing. Do recall, you made a crack about my writing first. And by the way, I've actually worked in professional publishing for 25 years. And since you decided to insult my writing, when no one else ever has, I'm unsure why Upwork allows you to be in the community forum.