Re: JSS computation with additional feature - Page 2

Neil P · ‎05-13-2019

I just have an idea that might help on computing JSS. You may be aware that the thing I am about to suggest is being practiced by some other freelancing website. That is the token being merited to the freelancers and clients based on income/ expenditures they contributed to the site. This reserved tokens can be used to block negative feedback both by client and freelancers.

I think this addition to system is very logical and beneficial.

If the freelancer is working with two projects, one amounting $3000 and the other is $30. The timeline of deliveries here is very vulnerable. If the contract of $30 went not cool and client can easily file dispute with nothing really to worry but a very small amount of money in the contract? What is left for the freelancer here? 50% bad record for his JSS while he still works to deliver $3000 contract which by the way, can last for over a month or months to deliver even before he can offer his service to another potential client? I thinks this is something we are missing. These two contracts that the freelancer have should not be treated equally in terms of his JSS. They are not. One of these brings weight to the income, work and time both for the platform and freelancer.

Given the scenario that both work is over, the current system will still count them as two jobs. Good rating for the $3000 contract and bad rating for $30 contract, equals 50% on your JSS?

Isn't it logical to see that $3000 contract is about 100 x of that $30 contract? If the freelancer took so much time to deliver the $3000 contract, should it only fair to give it a little more merit than the lost $30 contract?

What do you think guys? I am not a newbie in the world of freelancing. I am just wondering if this is a thing to consider. Let me know your thought.

Will L · ‎05-14-2019

Petra, This thread isn't about you, as much as you might like it to be.

Let's stick to the subject at hand - can the Job Success Score computations be improved and more reflective of each freelancer's "success" with Upwork clients by weighting longer-term, higher income jobs more heavily that very short-term, low value projects?

I don't think anyone expects Upwork will suddenly take an interest in changing the JSS system. That doesn't mean it isn't worth discussing among ourselves.

Phyllis G · ‎05-14-2019

Will L wrote:
Petra, This thread isn't about you, as much as you might like it to be.

Let's stick to the subject at hand - can the Job Success Score computations be improved and more reflective of each freelancer's "success" with Upwork clients by weighting longer-term, higher income jobs more heavily that very short-term, low value projects?

I don't think anyone expects Upwork will suddenly take an interest in changing the JSS system. That doesn't mean it isn't worth discussing among ourselves.

OP doesn't even want to change the JSS calculation. He just wants a way to remove bad feedback without having to maintain Top Rated status in order to do it.

Phyllis G · ‎05-14-2019

Will L wrote:
Well, Tonya, what you say may, or may not, be true.

Some posters here tell us they know much more about many elements of how Upwork works than Upwork has stated publicly, so, for most of us, this sort of thing is just another blacked-out window in the edifice that is Upwork. We can't see in.

Will, have you not installed the InkVisible app? You need it to access the parts of UW's user documentation written in invisible ink. You should have received a link when you were first designated as a Community Guru.

Jennifer M · ‎05-14-2019

Will L wrote:
Well, Tonya, what you say may, or may not, be true.

But I have seen no information from Upwork that states, "...the minimum qualifications for a long-term contract are 3 months and regular payments. If I understand the process correctly, a contract for which a payment was received in month 2 which remained open with no additional payments for 13 additional months, for example, would not qualify as long-term."

What is "regular"? - Once a month, once a quarter, something else? I have never had a contract stay idle for 13 months and would always ask, as I just did recently, that clients close their projects that have been idle for only a couple of months. Most clients do so without question; some admit they had no idea they needed to close their completed projects on Upwork. Reminding them is part of what a freelancer has to do - clients have much less reason to understand Upwork's many rules, protocols, quirks, etc. than freelancers have.

Some posters here tell us they know much more about many elements of how Upwork works than Upwork has stated publicly, so, for most of us, this sort of thing is just another blacked-out window in the edifice that is Upwork. We can't see in.

Vlad just posted recently that long-term is indeed 3 months of regular payments. The only thing they haven't clarified is what "regular" means, but I think the guess is it has to be once a month.

Tonya P · ‎05-14-2019

What is a long term content:

"May 11, 2019 02:01:16 AM by Vladimir G
...To clarify, clients you work with for at least three months in a past year and pay you regularly are your long-term clients. This could be over one or multiple contracts and could be hourly or fixed-price work. I checked your contracts and one client you're working with is really close to qualifying as a long-term relationship. Keep up the good work and your stats should reflect the long-term status in a couple of weeks."

See also,

https://community.upwork.com/t5/Member-Discussions/Several-contracts-for-the-same-client-does-that-c...

https://community.upwork.com/t5/Freelancers/Couple-of-questions-about-long-term-clients-amp-responsi...

Or, simply type the phrase "long term contract" into the Upwork Community search bar.

Richard W · ‎05-15-2019

Tonya P wrote:
What is a long term content:

"May 11, 2019 02:01:16 AM by Vladimir G
...To clarify, clients you work with for at least three months in a past year and pay you regularly are your long-term clients. This could be over one or multiple contracts and could be hourly or fixed-price work. I checked your contracts and one client you're working with is really close to qualifying as a long-term relationship. Keep up the good work and your stats should reflect the long-term status in a couple of weeks."

See also,
https://community.upwork.com/t5/Member-Discussions/Several-contracts-for-the-same-client-does-that-c...
https://community.upwork.com/t5/Freelancers/Couple-of-questions-about-long-term-clients-amp-responsi...

Or, simply type the phrase "long term contract" into the Upwork Community search bar.

There's been a lot of talk in this thread about "long term contracts". But, based on the quote you've just given and other considerations, I doubt that Upwork's algorithms give any special consideration to the length of contracts. I reckon that the algorithms are just based on long term clients, not contracts. Of course, the two will often coincide. If you've been earning on a contract for long enough, you'll start to get the long-term client benefit. But you would probably get the same benefit if you had an identical pattern of earnings divided between several contracts with the same client.

Richard W · ‎05-15-2019

Tonya P wrote:
What is a long term content:

"May 11, 2019 02:01:16 AM by Vladimir G
...To clarify, clients you work with for at least three months in a past year and pay you regularly are your long-term clients.

This is the first time that I've seen (or first time I've noticed) the qualification "in a past year", which I take to mean "in the past year". That would explain some changes in my Long Term Client stat which previously didn't seem to make sense.

Tonya P · ‎05-14-2019

Will L wrote:
Well, Tonya, what you say may, or may not, be true.

But I have seen no information from Upwork that states, "...the minimum qualifications for a long-term contract are 3 months and regular payments. If I understand the process correctly, a contract for which a payment was received in month 2 which remained open with no additional payments for 13 additional months, for example, would not qualify as long-term."

What is "regular"? - Once a month, once a quarter, something else? I have never had a contract stay idle for 13 months and would always ask, as I just did recently, that clients close their projects that have been idle for only a couple of months. Most clients do so without question; some admit they had no idea they needed to close their completed projects on Upwork. Reminding them is part of what a freelancer has to do - clients have much less reason to understand Upwork's many rules, protocols, quirks, etc. than freelancers have.

Some posters here tell us they know much more about many elements of how Upwork works than Upwork has stated publicly, so, for most of us, this sort of thing is just another blacked-out window in the edifice that is Upwork. We can't see in.

It is quite possible that simply because you have failed to see something does not mean it does not exist. Maybe some posters here are just more capable of finding relevant information than you.

Tiffany S · ‎05-14-2019

Will L wrote:

But I have seen no information from Upwork that states, "...the minimum qualifications for a long-term contract are 3 months and regular payments.

This is almost word for word what Valeria said a year or more ago in a thread on that subject.

Neil P · ‎05-14-2019

I've actually seen that and already considered it in reverse manner which is just equally bad as I was hoping it to be good, of course. However, if we take a look at my original post, I was actually hoping to get this important variable not a direct contribution to the JSS (though it really sounds like it is) but more of "reserve token" which can be accumulated from the "earning" value and not really from the feedback or rating given by the client or freelancer. The fact is, whatever rating or feedback that the client will give you, you still had brought yourself and the platform a certain amount of earning (same thing as the client). And this earning varies from project to project. Simpler one small earnings. But complex ones got big earnings. So, a freelancer as well as the client can accumulate these extra tokens depending on the "amount" of business they brought to the platform or Upwork. In time of need then, they can use these extra token or merits to use or help them boost their JSS... I hope I was able to express it clearer. It is like, the more you earn, the more business you brought to the platform, the more insured we can be.

It's like an insurance. Insurance does not depend on one's performance but is based on his "contribution". So both freelancers and clients have their monetary contributions to the system regardless of how they performed, right?

Phyllis G · ‎05-14-2019

Neil P wrote:
I've actually seen that and already considered it in reverse manner which is just equally bad as I was hoping it to be good, of course. However, if we take a look at my original post, I was actually hoping to get this important variable not a direct contribution to the JSS (though it really sounds like it is) but more of "reserve token" which can be accumulated from the "earning" value and not really from the feedback or rating given by the client or freelancer. The fact is, whatever rating or feedback that the client will give you, you still had brought yourself and the platform a certain amount of earning (same thing as the client). And this earning varies from project to project. Simpler one small earnings. But complex ones got big earnings. So, a freelancer as well as the client can accumulate these extra tokens depending on the "amount" of business they brought to the platform or Upwork. In time of need then, they can use these extra token or merits to use or help them boost their JSS... I hope I was able to express it clearer. It is like, the more you earn, the more business you brought to the platform, the more insured we can be.

It's like an insurance. Insurance does not depend on one's performance but is based on his "contribution". So both freelancers and clients have their monetary contributions to the system regardless of how they performed, right?

Not really.

One way FLs drive UW's success is by earning money, of which UW gets a percentage. The other way is by delighting clients so that they return to the platform and tell their friends. It is the nature of some professions that FL gigs tend to be small, one-off projects that don't cost a lot. FLs in those fields may be working extremely hard and doing a great job on eveyr project, delighting clients right and left. They are earning steadily--not as much as folks working on five- and six-figure fee projects, but enough for their own goals and they are an important part of the UW ecosystem. What you are proposing would penalize them because of the nature of their work. Unfair and, even more importantly, counterproductive to UW's model of trying to be all things to all clients.

Neil P · ‎05-14-2019

@gilbert-phyllis wrote:
Not really.

One way FLs drive UW's success is by earning money, of which UW gets a percentage. The other way is by delighting clients so that they return to the platform and tell their friends. It is the nature of some professions that FL gigs tend to be small...

That is how the feedback and rating / recommendations should work. But what I was trying to figure out is a different variable. And this variable is available (earnable) both on the client and freelancer's side. It is based on their earning / contribution to the site. It can act as a reserved token or extra insurance. I can't see how it can affect anyone negatively be a newbie or experienced ones? Who doesn't like extra anyway?

Phyllis G · ‎05-14-2019

Neil P wrote:
@ Phyllis G

That is how the feedback and rating / recommendations should work. But what I was trying to figure out is a different variable. And this variable is available (earnable) both on the client and freelancer's side. It is based on their earning / contribution to the site. It can act as a reserved token or extra insurance. I can't see how it can affect anyone negatively? Nor why anyone would not like to have it?

You want to offer a perk based solely on monetary contribution to the site. That would serve me well, since my project fees are usually several thousand dollars and I can get along fine with a handful of clients. In other fields, a successful FL typically charges a few hundred dollars, at most, for each project, and needs many dozens of clients a year to earn good money here. That person might be working just as hard or harder than I am; and they are helping UW attract and retain many more clients than I am. But they would be at a disadvantage re. a perk based solely on $$.

Neil P · ‎05-14-2019

Phyllis G wrote:
Neil P wrote:
@ Phyllis G
You want to offer a perk based solely on monetary contribution to the site. That would serve me well, since my project fees are usually several thousand dollars and I can get along fine with a handful of clients. In other fields, a successful FL typically charges a few hundred dollars, at most, for each project, and needs many dozens of clients a year to earn good money here. That person might be working just as hard or harder than I am; and they are helping UW attract and retain many more clients than I am. But they would be at a disadvantage re. a perk based solely on $$.

Working hard gives us the feeback and ratings we deserve. But winning a transaction to buy a farm as opposed to a tray of eggs clearly has a world of difference. And yes, the amount of business or money you are able to handle in this platform should be merited you as well. One of the thing that everyone should strive for... Big earnings. 🙂

And it does not necessarily be a disadvantage to small timers or beginners because all their earnings are still merited. In due time, it will grow big as long as we stay on the line. Don't you think?

Christine A · ‎05-14-2019

Neil P wrote:
Working hard gives us the feeback and ratings we deserve. But winning a transaction to buy a farm as opposed to a tray of eggs clearly has a world of difference. And yes, the amount of business or money you are able to handle in this platform should be merited you as well. One of the thing that everyone should strive for... Big earnings. 🙂

And it does not necessarily be a disadvantage to small timers or beginners because all their earnings are still merited. In due time, it will grow big as long as we stay on the line. Don't you think?

No, it doesn't look like everyone agrees with you (myself included). There's no harm in discussing our wishlist of changes that we hope Upwork could make, but it seems like all you're doing at this point is repeating yourself. What's the problem with making high earnings AND keeping clients happy?

Phyllis G · ‎05-14-2019

Christine A wrote:
Neil P wrote:
Working hard gives us the feeback and ratings we deserve. But winning a transaction to buy a farm as opposed to a tray of eggs clearly has a world of difference. And yes, the amount of business or money you are able to handle in this platform should be merited you as well. One of the thing that everyone should strive for... Big earnings. 🙂

And it does not necessarily be a disadvantage to small timers or beginners because all their earnings are still merited. In due time, it will grow big as long as we stay on the line. Don't you think?
No, it doesn't look like everyone agrees with you (myself included). There's no harm in discussing our wishlist of changes that we hope Upwork could make, but it seems like all you're doing at this point is repeating yourself. What's the problem with making high earnings AND keeping clients happy?

Those pesky clients again. If only they would just give us their money and keep quiet.

Neil P · ‎05-14-2019

Christine A wrote:
Neil P wrote:
No, it doesn't look like everyone agrees with you (myself included). There's no harm in discussing our wishlist of changes that we hope Upwork could make, but it seems like all you're doing at this point is repeating yourself. What's the problem with making high earnings AND keeping clients happy?

Huh? Absolutely there is nothing wrong with making high earnings and keeping clients happy. We should keep it that way.. 🙂

I'm not sure if you were missing the beginning of our discussion where we almost agreed to this important variable? You may call it a wishlist but who knows? The world keep on changing and if changes offers a better and brighter tomorrow, why not?

Christine A · ‎05-14-2019

Neil P wrote:
Huh? Absolutely there is nothing wrong with making high earnings and keeping clients happy. We should keep it that way.. 🙂

Great, then we all agree.

Phyllis G · ‎05-14-2019

Neil P wrote:
Christine A wrote:
Neil P wrote:
No, it doesn't look like everyone agrees with you (myself included). There's no harm in discussing our wishlist of changes that we hope Upwork could make, but it seems like all you're doing at this point is repeating yourself. What's the problem with making high earnings AND keeping clients happy?
Huh? Absolutely there is nothing wrong with making high earnings and keeping clients happy. We should keep it that way.. 🙂
I'm not sure if you were missing the beginning of our discussion where we almost agreed to this important variable?

Neil, if we understand you correctly, the essence of your proposal is to give FLs a way to remove bad feedback without going to the trouble of maintaining Top Rated status--which requires keeping the majority of one's clients extremely satisfied. Maybe others like that notion. I think it's a terrible idea.

Neil P · ‎05-14-2019

Phyllis G wrote:
Neil P wrote:
Neil, if we understand you correctly, the essence of your proposal is to give FLs a way to remove bad feedback without going to the trouble of maintaining Top Rated status--which requires keeping the majority of one's clients extremely satisfied. Maybe others like that notion. I think it's a terrible idea.

Again, just to make it clear that it is not one sided. Both freelancers and clients should be merited based on the amount of their earning and/ or expenditures on the platform. Yes, they can be used to remove bad feedbacks both by freelancer and clients alike if we can put it that way. I've already given an opening scenario. Two jobs you have for example. One of $30 client and one of $3000 client. $30 for a single day job not satisfied. $3000 to work for 3 months, worked hard and client end up satisfied. By definition of simple computation of Upworks JSS you only got 50% success rate. What happened to three months of long labor and big earnings and satisfaction that was brought to the platform and client? In fact, even the $30 client still agrees to pay regardless of the performace, right?

In my opinion, the amount of earning should also provide freelancer and clients an "extra" merit. Well yes, If I earned such merit from $3000 work, can't I possibly cover up that $30 failed job? Just thinking....

I believe we can all agree that there is an important missing variable to the formula. Earning is a separate merit from feedback and rating but can serve as supplement to one's JSS.

Christine A · ‎05-14-2019

Neil P wrote:
I believe we can all agree that there is an important missing variable to the formula. Earning is a separate merit from feedback and rating and can serve as supplement to one's JSS.

No, we don't all agree, but that's fine - we can agree to disagree. (At least, some of us can.)

Kholleras I · ‎05-14-2019

Neil P wrote:

And it does not necessarily be a disadvantage to small timers or beginners because all their earnings are still merited. In due time, it will grow big as long as we stay on the line. Don't you think?

Yes it does disadvantage "small timers" because the amount of money people can earn is limited by the type of work they do. Even the best and most experienced virtual assistant, for example, won't be able to charge as much as a half decent senior software developer.

Neil P · ‎05-14-2019

Heaven H wrote:
Neil P wrote:
Yes it does disadvantage "small timers" because the amount of money people can earn is limited by the type of work they do. Even the best and most experienced virtual assistant, for example, won't be able to charge as much as a half decent senior software developer.

I beg to disagree. These extra merit based on income are their "extra merits". What disadvantage it can bring to anyone no matter how small it is? I just can't figure out why would somebody claim such thing is a disadvantage? And if for some reason he is in need to use them for his JSS, such job with small earning ended up negatively, will simply require small extra merits to use. All goes equal. Same thing that a client can do for his JSS.

Again, such feature is totally beneficial for ALL regardless of his/ her level here in Upwork. Don't you think?

Petra R · ‎05-14-2019

Neil P wrote:
Heaven H wrote:
Neil P wrote:
Yes it does disadvantage "small timers" because the amount of money people can earn is limited by the type of work they do. Even the best and most experienced virtual assistant, for example, won't be able to charge as much as a half decent senior software developer.

I beg to disagree. These extra merit based on income are their "extra merits". What disadvantage it can bring to anyone no matter how small it is?

Obviously (!) when you give an advantage to some people but not others, in such a competitive market that automatically puts the people that priviledged person at a disadvantage.

If a freelancer just about manages to hang on to Top Rated status by a thread with the help of extra "tokens" - then by definition all the freelancers who do not have that extra advantage are automatically at a disadvantage because they will fall out of the program, all else being equal.

Those who earned lots of money are already advantaged. The advantage is called "money."

At any rate, interesting as the discussion is, it's purely hypothetical because I'd bet a tidy sum of money that this isn't going to happen.

Neil P · ‎05-15-2019

Petra R wrote:
Obviously (!) when you give an advantage to some people but not others, in such a competitive market that automatically puts the people that priviledged person at a disadvantage.

If a freelancer just about manages to hang on to Top Rated status by a thread with the help of extra "tokens" - then by definition all the freelancers who do not have that extra advantage are automatically at a disadvantage because they will fall out of the program, all else being equal.

Those who earned lots of money are already advantaged. The advantage is called "money."

At any rate, interesting as the discussion is, it's purely hypothetical because I'd bet a tidy sum of money that this isn't going to happen.

In my opinion, the only ones who will not have this advantage are those who never made any earnings at all. Yes, high earners will definitely have higher merits than those who are low earners. I am guessing that is only fair to count numbers accordingly. But I can't see any disadvantage of this scheme even to low earners. Someone works for two gets a merit of two. Someone works for 20 gets a merit of 20. It shows fairness, not disadvantage.

It will be a total advantage to give everybody a merit of 20 with or without work but obviously, that is not fair. 🙂 Probably an x-mas gift.