Upwork hidding freelancer's bids from clients.

[spectralua]

I wasted 16 connects 32 minutes ago to apply.

My proposal is hidden, client never saw it.

My proposal was $190, current range have no such amount.

I would like an explanation.

jobpost 

[50f7abd3]

I experienced the same thing with my last proposal. After checking on the post some hours later, I noticed that the highest bid was lower than mine for a long time. I kept refreshing and eventually saw a bid appear higher than mine.

I have always been very sceptical about whether clients actually see my bid.

[759e32fa]

Hi Mykola,

Sure. I checked on this and can confirm that the client received your proposal. Please keep in mind that clients will review the proposals that they receive carefully and look closely at the freelancers or agencies who submitted them. Some things they will consider include the freelancer or agency’s skills, experience, work history and ratings on the platform, availability, ability to meet their deadline, and budget.

Clients can take one of these actions:
 

• Contact the freelancer or agency to discuss their proposal (interview and negotiate)
• Set contract terms and, if accepted, hire the freelancer or agency
• Decline a proposal – Notify the freelancer or agency they are not interested in the proposal and why
• Archive a proposal – Hide the proposal from their list without rejecting it

When one of the two last actions is taken by clients those proposals will no longer be considered in the bid range.

Since you can still see the proposal in your "submitted proposals" section and not on archive, this means that the client did not decline your proposal and that leaves us to the conclusion that they have archived your proposal.

[yofazza]

- nevermind -

[f3cf95d1]

Get rid of the boost system. 

Go back to the old system that matched the most qualified freelancer to the job.

Don't let everyone in to the platform. 

Delete bots and scammers.

When you have somene that's posted 1,014 jobs with a 1% hire rate and $30 spent.....this person has to be removed from the system. They are CLEARLY taking advantage of freelancers on the platform. But I guarnatee you that Upwork will do NOTHING to this person.

[f3cf95d1]

Good evening, Thank you for your sound advice, but it's of little use as the proposals are not read, even when the customer receives less than 5 proposals.**Edited for community guidelines** https://www.upwork.com/nx/wm/offer/101570036 hired me. He told me I had one of the best applications in accounting (I've worked with KPMG and Deloitte). However, here are my ratios: 100% of my applications read by clients result in 100% hiring. And 91% of my proposals are not read. That's the sad fact... So you hide proposals from clients. This is very serious since it is a complete scam. I intend to alert specialist lawyers since we have created a false customer account for testing. My application was never received...

Laurent.

[53a1fe60]

What is counsel advising. If true, or even somewhat true...the entire enterprise is potentially fraudulent.

[a8d1dc31]

To be honest: The possibility that proposals are just archived even without being viewed is unacceptable for me. Giving a reply to the freelancer in a timely manner should be an obligation for the client (see my post "I suggest a Client Success Score").

[53a1fe60]

That's a completely inappropriate and disingenuous response to what is being discussed, and you know it.

[yofazza]

It could be some caching mechanism, although I do have a very strong feeling that this is true in some other ways.

Our proposals could be hidden, or temporarily held, including the email notification. They are not simply thrown into the 'other' folder when the algo thinks it's not the time for the proposal sender to get additional view  because client would still check this folder if there are not many proposals, right? Or they will still see them in their notification?

I experienced, when there was a job, quite specific/specialized, with fewer than 5 proposals, where I submitted mine in under 10 minutes after the job was posted. The client isn't new, and my first two lines are always clickbaits.

I waited 30 minutes, the job only have 5-10 proposals (jobs in my niche usually gets 50+ in less than 30 minutes).

I checked back after a few hours, a few people getting interviewed and someone getting the job, with no notification that my proposal was ever viewed.

[spectralua]

I also noticed where a 100% suitable client did not see me. That is why I closely monitor proposals.

It should be like this:

I made a proposal.

The Bid range amount has changed to reflect mine.

The client looked at the vacancy, the "Last viewed by client" timer was reset.

The client threw the offer into the trash (having read it or not)

The Bid range has changed taking into account.

Even the fastest client requires at least 5 seconds to do this. Also it is not a failure because some times it works as expected. Not each my proposal trashed.

Even though Annie Jane has said this not for the first time, it is impossible. I updated the offer every few seconds until the client activity (Last viewed) reset. Therefore, I am sure that the upwork either deletes the offer without showing it or immediately puts it in the trash.

I don't mind paying for the application. But I don't like that I pay money for nothing when my offer never shows up. I don't complain about abstract reasons why a client doesn't hire. I point out an obvious fraud when money is taken for a specific clear service: add my offer to the list of offers so that the client can see it.

[atreglia]

---

Mykola A wrote:

Therefore, I am sure that the upwork either deletes the offer without showing it or immediately puts it in the trash.

---

But of course, your proposal being sent straight to the trash is the most likely outcome.  Annie confirmed the client "received" your proposal, but she did not say what pile it went to.

[spectralua]

Well spotted. 😃

[vverma15]

Is this truly the case? Because my proposals are also encountering the same problems.

[yofazza]

It's confirmed that Upwork is rotating the freelancer's chances.

What discussed in this thread, is about how far Upwork "interferes" in making sure that the chances are rotated.

[calado-marco]

Ok, i was intending to respond to your previous posts, but now you got it; " Upwork is rotating the freelancer's chances".

I had this doubts a time ago, so i asked the same question. What i got back from them is something along this lines ; "we need to give more chances to newcomers so we rotate the profiles on the job offers and invites".

Firstly, if this is their current logic, all of the boost system goes down the drain....

Secondly, if they intent to promote a professional/experienced/skilled platform and keep pushing non verified freelancers; then all of their promotional/advertising stunts fall flat.

I have nothing againts new freelancers, but we have all been there and we all had to prove ourselves with our work quality. If they want to atract new clients, they need to promote professionals...

And new clients means new cash inflow and that is what a business (any business) is all about.

[yofazza]

Firstly, if this is their current logic, all of the boost system goes down the drain....

This is what prioritized by the algo:

1. The boost, but only the top 4. When someone got outboosted, it goes to "the usual place" (exact phrase the mods use):
   
   
2. The usual place is sorted by some "secretive" sub-algo to determine "best matches", where this "best match" is now prioritizing rotation among other "things that should be" if viewed from our POV such as skills, matching history, etc.

So  it's not entirely goes down the drain because you still have the top-4 chance before you can end up in the "regular" or "other" (trash) list, and also (they said) you'll get connects returned if the client doesn't see your boosted proposal.

Secondly, if they intent to promote a professional/experienced/skilled platform and keep pushing non verified freelancers; then all of their promotional/advertising stunts fall flat.

This is what makes me curious. I want to see their contingency plan when a saturation point (a large portion of freelancers no longer interested in "paying" because they can't find clients, because all good clients have left as they only find disappointment here) is reached. And this is also by assuming that the current model is really unsustainable where that saturation point can be reached.

It's weird to see they don't seem to care if they lose some (types) of client. We can look into the Clients forum for that. Recent example, telling a genuine clueless client to use the fail bot again, is really a bad move. Looked like it happen because the mod is told to do that (point them the bot, don't immediately create them tickets to the scarcy human support).

There are also complains about raised fee, increased fakes, with similar respond (they don't care about clients ~ which is weird).

[tjmisny]

If there is a rotation system, it needs to be recalibrated.

I'm one of the top (if not THE top) freelancer in my field, and my hire rate is .3% this year.  To be clear, not even half of one percent of jobs I apply to.... 

[the-right-writer]

There is supposed to be a rotation algorithm, and if it is running correctly, the top freelancers do not always have the top spot. Depending on who knows what, the searches can be very different if you search as a client, freelancer, or use different search words. Then there is the matter of paying. Paying for the available button,  searches, the "plus" program, and all the other ways to pay, can alter your appearances, according to people that have been collecting data. I don't know if Upwork uses all of the money spent in the calculations, but it is definitely not based on the JSS, income, years on the platform, or any other usual metric. I have no problem with rotation, if there seemed to be any reasoning or consistency. It seems someone likes to play with the algos, or perhaps that works as well as the scam detection and removal.

[6bfcdaf8]

I can confirm i'm seeing the pattern that Annie described in some of my proposals. And as a client i have also done the same, i look at the proposals summary in list view and quickly click archive which removes the proposal from list view. I believe some clients do that to mine too, we are just not a good match. 

[spectralua]

Do you do this every 2 seconds without even opening a vacancy? Or do you open a vacancy, for example, in 10 minutes and cleaning the list? In second case proposal should be there within that 10 min before you rejected\moved it.

In topic example Last viewed by client was "3 min ago", i applied then Last viewed by client increased to "11min ago". Then client returned, opened job post, started some interviews... After my apply within 8 minutes client was away but my proposal was never included in Bid range.

[rekasesh]

What you're saying is essentially -- proposals are getting dumped into trash file through some AI tinkering, even before the client sees it. 

If that's the case, most of us are sitting in a casino of jobs waiting for that lucky break. 

[53a1fe60]

If true, and it likely is...this is beyond disheartening, suggestive of deceptive business practices and possibly outright $@#&%.

We are paying significant fees in the hundreds if not thousands of dollars a year...to have "the milkman deliver milk," not for the CHANCE the milkman may/may not deliver milk based on unknown and unknowable forces.

"Well the client has the right to..." what, algorithmically/easily eliminate proposals enabled and pushed along by Upwork tools? Really. As the milkman is able to sell off his supply of milk en route to customer just because he can?

That's not how business operates. These are the most basic and sacred tenets of UCC.

Either our expensive, time consuming and professionally crafted proposals are being properly delivered...or not.

[tjmisny]

Bingo

[yofazza]

The milkman has a larger area to serve compared to their competitors, while always experiencing monthly losses for nearly a decade. So they think of a way to utilize that significant share of customers, and it works, finally making them some profits.

So the customers; should think of how to not getting milked. If you can't play along with the milkman's game, you'd better stop.

The customers don't have the power, nor the rights to tell them to revert to their months of losses, unless their game is breaking some laws.

[53a1fe60]

Are you happy with your response, a version of the classic grammar school student "if you don't like it go home" reply? You're better than that.

And the potential issue is much bigger than that. It's called potential dec$#@&%*& business practices, $&ud and $@&%## (see UCC).

Noooow, we're into law school terms. The alleged offense is yet to be proven but certainly worthy of further investigation. Certainly you and the "unfalteringly" above board firm should be ok with that as there's nothing to hide, right?

Or should we all just take our lumps and...go home, Radia.

[yofazza]

if you don't like it go home

I'm always trying hard to not sound like that.

How about this:

You've been running a business that never profit for nearly a decade, despite having the largest share of happy clients and vendors in the field.

Wouldn't you change your business model to legally milk on your clients and vendors instead?

Would you listen to some of them yelling? Or would you think, "lol, look at all those people's suggestions, they didn't know what we've all been through"? Including your "milk delivery chance" analogy, it's actually a common practice these days on the internet in the form of loot boxes.

I'm posting these to make you all think. Perhaps the energy could be channeled into something more productive:

• Some people seem to not affected by the 'recent changes'
• Some people need to 'reduce their profit a lot' but can still profit on this site
• Some people can't, or not interested, they stop or left.
• Some people got gamed by Upwork.

Your choice, and understanding about 'legal milking' above should help.

ps: I've posted a few times about which part of all these that could have a lawsuit potential.

[53a1fe60]

What in God's name would possess you to support a platform that appears...to be acting beyond commonly accepted moral and $&@$# bounds (UCC).

Stop. You're too focused on "winning" than standing for an obvious good.  That's not a good look. With God.

But I do appreciate your voracity and civil attempts to reach a common understanding, as misguided as it may be. And for that, willing to engage you here and elsewhere.

Personally, unless I'm convinced [FAST!] that what I'm thinking is true is not true...I can only conclude that the platform is no longer a viable, stable or legitimate place of business and commerce, but a place where one can occasionally find "found income."

In other words, get what you can, by raw happenstance and expect nothing else.

Which is very different than how so many of us are professionally built and what so many had hoped for. 🙏 

PS: apologies on the overly abstract milkman analogy.

Try this: if I pay the USPS hundreds of dollars a month/year for STANDARD mail services, my basic expectation is they'll deliver the mail...not burn or "lose" it based on 'leveling the field'' or even disagreeing with my non mainstream views. 

It may not be perfect, it may not be fancy, it may not be fast...but it will get there. Because if it didn't, and the system got provably corrupted...the entire system would implode.

Does that help?

[yofazza]

Does that help?

You're missing my point about being "persuaded" to play with loot boxes. And yet, they are not doing anything illegal, so you can't do anything other than becoming one of the 4 bullet points above.

Providing either standard or high quality mailing freelancing service is not in their priority anymore. They're aiming for profit, by legally playing with, or tricking, their enormous member base.

Over a decade of losses (if we count their predecessors) is not something to take lightly. I personally wouldn't complain if they run an ethics-less business, as it wouldn't be the first on the internets. But of course I wouldn't want to become their 'victim'.

What they're doing might reach a saturation point where no freelancers will be willing to pay anymore, but as shown in this thread, it seems like they have quite a few plans in their hands.

[afaytaren]

At least with loot boxes, they provide with the percentage or breakdown of what you will have a chance of winning.  Here, there is no transparency and they try to hide and dont provide information your ranking in the proposal page if you have been outbid.  They have deemed this as private information.  This should not be private information as you have paid for a higher chance.

[tjmisny]

The main reason I feel the transparency is ESSENTIAL is because Upwork has branded the sale of Connects as "Advertising".  Any other advertising platform gives you total transparency and metrics, so you can analyze ROAS.  When you Boost your Profile, you have no idea how/when/where your profile is presented or who the viewer was, and what kind of interaction was had.  

Unless Upwork provides actual advertising metrics, they should not be able to call this advertising.  

[atreglia]

---

 Hudson M wrote:

Try this: if I pay the USPS hundreds of dollars a month/year for STANDARD mail services, my basic expectation is they'll deliver the mail...not burn or "lose" it based on 'leveling the field'' or even disagreeing with my non mainstream views. 

---

I can't believe you said that as I've often thought very similar.  Standard USPS means they deliver the mail to your mailbox; not in the bushes, not with a neighbor, not under the mat.  The mailman does not have the right to look at your mail and decide what's junk so he/she may deliver it some other day.  I'm so tired of hearing that we are only paying for Upwork to deliver our proposals.  That's a trick.  Sure, we're paying them to deliver, but it's not up to Upwork to decide where it gets delivered.

[afaytaren]

They can't provide this info as this is the smoking gun that shows boosting is a bad investment if you have been outbid.

[atreglia]

Hi Aristotle, I'm not sure what you mean.  I was referring to any proposal, not just boosted and outbid boosts, and my apologies for not being clear about that.  I'm specifically referring to the "Other" folder that they stick our proposals in if the home-grown and secret algorithm decides it's unqualifed.

Either way, there's a smoking gun there, I agree.  When they take our money but secretly manipulate our proposals, something doesn't smell right.  It's as though we pay for an "opportunity" (job) for yet another "opportunity" (algorithm) to eventually maybe get back to our original "opportunity" (job).  That's just not right, at all.  I never heard of a lottery ticket working that way.  With a lottery ticket you pay-you play; no algorithms to throw your ticket in the trash after you purchased it.  Who ever heard of that?

[the-right-writer]

What in God's name would possess you to support a platform that appears...to be acting beyond commonly accepted moral and $&@$# bounds (UCC).

There is that word "appears" which negates your claims. Appears, is not fact.

No human can claim to know what God thinks about some little issue in the scheme of things. Do not try to shame people because you are mad they will not agree to your claims.

I can only conclude that the platform is no longer a viable, stable or legitimate place of business and commerce, but a place where one can occasionally find "found income."

Since you know this, why are you complaining about the very same thing?

Which is very different than how so many of us are professionally built and what so many had hoped for.

Therein lies the issue. What so many had hoped for. Well, since it is not what you had hoped for, you have a decision to make. By saying it wasn't what you had hoped for, for the first time, you are saying it isn't Upwork's fault you are not happy.

Try this: if I pay the USPS hundreds of dollars a month/year for STANDARD mail services, my basic expectation is they'll deliver the mail...not burn or "lose" it based on 'leveling the field'' or even disagreeing with my non mainstream views.

You cannot compare a milkman or the USPS to freelancing. I'm amazed that people cannot undestand the difference, when they work in the field. You aren't paying to get a job, you are paying to apply, period. There are no guarantees in freelancing.

[the-right-writer]

Are you happy with your response, a version of the classic grammar school student "if you don't like it go home" reply?

You may equate the statement to small children playing games, and that's the problem. Freelancing is for adults, who know how to freelance, before they jump on a platform. Freelancing, including the physical world means you will apply for more jobs than you will receive. You will spend money and not be hired. Such is freelancing. If you want some guarantee that a client will interview you or hire you, you shouldn't be freelancing, because you will be sorely disappointed.

Again, if you have evidence that Upwork is violating any laws, then don't post - do something about it. It's one thing to say "unfair" and quite another to have legal status. I wholeheartedly support anyone coming forth with evidence that Upwork is violating any law.

You can argue your point without becoming personal. If you have evidence of your claims, I'm sure we will be hearing about it on the news. Again, I sincerely suggest you use the Academy to have a professional profile.

[the-right-writer]

You cannot compare a simple exchange of money for goods to freelancing. In freelancing, there are no guarantees. No one promises jobs will be delivered to your door step. No one guarantees you a thing, except that you can use the platform within Upwork's rules.

Either our expensive, time consuming and professionally crafted proposals are being properly delivered...or not.

If anyone has evidence that Upwork is purposely hiding proposals, I would like to see it. So, you are saying that Upwork puts proposals in some secret pile? We know clients don't have to do much, including putting your proposal in a garbage file, to qualify as connecting with the proposal.

If you want to be a successful freelancer here, use the link to the Academy at the top of the page. There are many things you can do to have a professional profile, which helps draw customers and deter scammers.

[53a1fe60]

Let's connect, Mykola.

[elena_artemuk]

Hi, Mykola,

Just to return to our short discussion in one of the earlier posts here https://community.upwork.com/t5/Freelancers/CLIENTS-ARE-NOT-EVEN-VIEWING-OUR-PROPOSALS/td-p/152926

Again, I would like to point out the obvious things that casino and respectability are two non-intersecting lines, and in a casino, only the casino always wins. The fewer freelancers boost their profiles and proposals, the sooner this casino will go down the dumper.

One more disgusting thing that I accidentally stumbled upon here is that most likely the platform plucks like geese not only freelancers, but also reliable clients, as a result of which they simply close contracts and leave the UW without giving reasons. Something really ugly is happening here, and I think the platform would be significantly transformed in the near future. Cheers and take care!

[yofazza]

At least with loot boxes, they provide with the percentage or breakdown of what you will have a chance of winning.

---

I'm not really sure if loot boxes are required to provide those details, but Upwork did try to provide 'chance percentages' and other information (for whatever the truth behind them may be).

It's just this, the basic principle; get a lot of members,  and monetize them (despite their quarterly report about the "regular freelancer fee" still being the larger part of their income).

They also follow 'trends' like minimizing human support, do AIs, create competition among users with CTRs, CPCs, etc., where the actual "I want to do freelance work" and "I want to hire some freealancers" are now just a tiny part of everything.

the platform plucks like geese not only freelancers, but also reliable clients, as a result of which they simply close contracts and leave the UW without giving reasons. Something really ugly is happening here, and I think the platform would be significantly transformed in the near future

Yes, I wrote a few times, especially when I realize they didn't care when quite a few clients posted complaints about being overwhelmed with bot proposals from fake accounts. It's so weird that Upwork don't care about the (supposed to be) source of income in the entire system.

But as I wrote here, I don't think it's a "take everything while you can and bail" scenario. They have plans, just don't be "used" in that plan.