Sep 9, 2015 04:47:22 PM Edited Sep 11, 2015 02:38:33 AM by Vadivelan R
You making countless of very good proposals on various projects, but don't get any replies? Then read this post patiently, you will know the reasons.
Sincere thanks to all of my Elance clients who moved to Upwork and patiently answered to my long list of questions and helped me in various ways to create this issue list.
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Issue 1: Algorithm for deciding "the top 10 freelancers to invite" when a client posting the project is a big failure
Details:
When a client posting a project, they have an option to invite top 10 freelancers relevant to that project. The algorithm that Upwork uses for this is flawed.
Why this critical:
Personally, I don't mind even if wrong 10 freelancers invited to a project. But the kind of advantage these top 10 freelancers gets after invitation, is a big worry. It is impossible for others to win ( read further issues to understand the seriousness ), if a client decided to invite them.
What Went Wrong - Case study:
Lets say a client post project called "web scraping program in php" and client selected PHP and web-scraping as needed skill sets
Algorithm thinks the below people are best to do this project:
a .NET developer - Top Rated
a newbie freelancer who has done 4 web-scraping project but php is not a skillset he selected, done only 22 hours of work ( 14 jobs total - most projects nothing to do with webscraping )
a php developer who is nothing to do with webscraping
A java, c++ developer, 0 hours worked, 0 feedback
and many more crap invites. Out of 10 invites, 7 suggestions are joke. Lets talk about the three correct ( to some extend ) suggestions.
It seems algorithm thinks this project is about PHP with some importance to web-scraping OR it may thinks php and web-scraping skills needed. It turns out that those 3 correct suggestions are people top rated in PHP projects with very few webscraping projects. What the algorithm don't realize is, PHP is a generic skill and
Web scraping programming using PHP language is the specialization. It is common sense that a programmer who has done 100 projects in webscraping using PHP is most qualified than a programmer who has done 200 generic projects in php ( may be he has done some 10 web scraping project ). There are countless of
freelancers whose profile is open, top-rated, done 100s projects / 1000s of hours in webscraping using PHP, but they are not in TOP 10 invite list.
Implications:
Opportunity denied to right people and irrelevant freelancers gets the opportunity.
I personally don't have any issue in TOP 10 invites, irrespective to whom is invited.. but read the further issues to understand, how it is impossible for others to get the job if a client decides go for the suggested invites.
Resolution Needed:
1. Fix the algorithm which selects the top 10 ( or top 30 ) invites. Else remove the feature
2. If don't want to / unable to fix this issue.. At-least fix issue: 8
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Issue 2: Algorithm for deciding "Recommended" badge in the list of proposals
Details:
A client views the list of proposals in their dashboard. The order of proposals being listed to client is determined by Upwork algorithm. It list the invited freelancers & "some other freelancers" at the top positions ( irrespective when they make their proposals ) with a big green badge & a star with text "Recommended" to lure the
client to award projects to them. Lets call this "some other freelancers" as genius.
This genius selection suffer the same problem explained in "Issue 1", but not that worst, mostly relevant freelancers. But definitely they are not the best ones who applied to the job. More qualified / experienced ( hours, no of projects, relevant webscraping projects, feedbacks ) not termed as Recommended but pushed down the order in listing the proposals.
My client said that one of the Recommended guy revealed that he is not doing PHP ( or web based ) projects but applied thinking he can do the scraping as desktop app; his profile don't list php as a skill. but he is
still recommended. He also said many freelancers hidden or at the end of the list with hundreds or some time thousands of hours, full of required specialized projects with great feedback score.
Implications:
Upwork force feed certain freelancers to clients to award the projects, that too with flawed algorithm.
Resolution Needed:
1. Fix the algorithm which determine the "recommended" freelancers. Else remove the feature.
2. If you don't want to fix / unable to fix this issue.. atleast fix issue: 8
================================
Issue 3: Upwork sends an email to clients suggesting "They found a great fit for your project"
Details:
Out of the recommended freelancers ( aka geniuses ) few are selected and separate emails being sent to clients with the title "XXXXX XXXX is a great fit for your job" . Inside the email, that genius's photo, name, star rating, hours worked, cover letter ( few lines only ), latest review all are being shown.
This approach suffers the same issue as in Issue 2, because the part of peole who emailed are being selected from Recommended freelancers.
Resolution Needed:
1. Fix the recommentation algorithm. Better don't send emails promoting certain freelancers only.
2. If you don't want to fix / unable to fix this issue.. at-least fix issue: 8
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Issue 4: Unfair advantage to Invited freelancers
Details:
If a client decides to invite freelancers based on the Upwork's flawed algorithm ( issue no 1 ), they don't need to write cover letter. They can directly private message the client, chat in the message center, can send a message with their skype id / contact details to have a live discussion. Other freelancers can only initiate a
discussion if client decide to respond through a private message ( aka interview )
Resolution Needed:
1. Let them make a proposal ( covering letter, answer all questions, show your understanding of the project, ask right questions, suggest nice ideas, win the client heart, let the client to initiate a message if he/she feel that you worth the recommendation. Not direct access to clients.
2. If you don't want to fix / unable to fix this issue... at-least fix issue: 8
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issue 5: When client click on the list of applicants, it take them to list the messaged freelancers instead of listing the proposals
Details:
In the client admin panel, there is a listing of jobs they posted. In which there is a link to view the applicants who applied to the job. (link says "xx applicants" ). Upon clicking that link, it "supposed" take to a page where all the applicants are displayed. Instead it takes them to a section called "Messaged Applicants".
Who can message a client directly? oh yes, those upwork suggested TOP XX invited freelancers. So they are the ones listed here ( provided they messaged, they do, it is a easy chance to win a project - direct access ). A-tleast below that list, other freelancers being listed? NO. Below which they list "xx unanswered invites". So where are the normal applicants. Client has to click on another link called "Applicants".. isn't the client already cliked on the "xx applicants" link to come here?
Resolution Needed:
1. Fix issue 4. And if a client clicks on a link called "xx applicants" just take them to a page where applicants (aka proposals ) are being listed. Why you take them to messed -invited - applicants? if you want, provide another link saying "Messaged Applicants" and take them to respective page. Don't hijack the client, let me them decide what they want.
2. If you don't want to fix / unable to fix this issue... atleast fix issue: 8
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issue 6: proposals are hidden from clients
Details:
Client post a project -> freelancers make proposals -> client view the list of applicants through their admin area. Now they have to see the proposals
-> Either in the order of First Proposal First
-> Or Latest Proposal First
* But Upwork do neither. They display only one proposal or xx number of proposals ( which proposals? Read issue no.7 ) and the remaining are hidden. Client has to click on "View More" button to see the remaining proposals.
Oh wait, did I say remaining proposals, no, not yet. It will display only the remaining "new proposals" which client haven't seen already. He has to click the "View More" button once again to see the next 5 proposals. If there are 20 proposals made in a project, it needs at-least 4 clicks on "View More" button to see all the proposals.
* To make it more complicated, "View More" button often
-> Loads forever, nothing happens
-> Leads to standard Upwork page load issue ( crikie / kaput? whats the meaning of it? Is it English? )
-> Some time 'View More" button don't display at all
* This is further more complicated because... omg.. please read next issue 7
Resolution Needed:
* Display all the proposals. Don't hide proposals behind "View More" button.
* If you can't fix it ( I know there are huge project - freelancer mismatch, seen lot of even low budget projects attracting 50, 100 proposals, displaying all proposals will aggregate the current site load issue ) or don't want to fix it, atleast fix issue: 8
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issue 7: Proposal listing order favor invited or recommended freelancers and other proposal listing order determined by Upwork advanced technology
Details:
To further complicate the "proposal listing order" which client sees when you apply for a work.. upwork always show invited / recommended freelancers at the top, and also it applies its advanced technology and algorithms to list in a specific order which thinks more suitable for the job.
This is again flawed, because ( in the example I am explaining from start ), freelancers with 1000s of hours of very relevant projects, great feedback / job success scores too buried under many clicks of "View More" button and it will never see the light of the day. The algorithm is flawed, the proposal listing order doesn't make any sense.
Due to this even new proposals will also never get an opportunity to be displayed at the top. Everything buried under if algorithm don't like you.
Resolution needed:
see issue: 8
================================
issue 8:
Okay, This is not an issue. Kind of fix you have to do, even if you can't fix any one of the above.
Resolution Needed:
"NEVER modify the order in which proposals are being listed to clients. Just show the first made proposal first, or the opposite, no preference to anyone. This is a fundamental right of freelancers in a marketplace"
================================
There are lot of more issues, but I stopped with the issues that directly affect a freelancer's chance to win a project, forget winning, issues that stops the freelancers from presenting the proposals to clients.
Dear Upwork,
If you want, you shall fix issues 1 to 6. If you can't fix for whatever reason, at-least fix that point 8 (point 7 fix is same as 8 ).
* Give recommended badges to certain freelancers, no problem
* Send email to clients suggesting the best fit for the project, no problem
* Select Top XX freelancers to get invited with your flawed algorithm, no problem
* Let your top xx invited freelancers to send direct message to clients, no problem... on a second thought.. oh no, this is a big problem, can't you stop it?
* Display only 5 proposals at a time, no problem ( as site is having page loading issue, can't afford to display all proposals )
But fix the point 8 above. Again, "NEVER modify the order in which proposals are being listed to client. Just show the first made proposal first, or the opposite, no preference to anyone. This is a fundamental right of freelancers in a marketplace"
If you change the order as per your need:
- You deny the opportunity to a client from selecting a possibly most potential freelancer
- You think your clients are dumb and pushing your selections through their throat
- You laugh at the freelancers who analyze the job post, suggest ideas, point out missing information, write extensive, compelling proposals by spending lot of time to each job, at all the odd hours in day & nights...and that only to be buried somewhere, no one read and goes to garbage
- You may say smart clients can filter through the proposals. No, most of the clients are not technical,most don't know whats going on here, they tends to accept your recommended great guys, suggested invite are the best
- You may say client who wants the best freelancers have to cross the algorithm order and read the proposals that buried under. No, this is not humanly possible when there is huge number of proposals being made to each project.
- You forcing the freelancers to getting into a bidding war, to post lowest rates possible and to give copy paste cookie cutter covering letters... because they fed-up that they never get a response ( interview ) from any clients. So they decided to try bid them all and see if they get any reply.
- There are lot of ways to address project-freelancer mismatch, to stop low quality proposals, or stop freelancers from bidding every project they see..etc etc. all these solutions are common sense. You may not believe in we human beings ( but rely on your so called non working algorithms ), but we believe in you. You can
identify those measures and implement.
Lets assume your algorithms are perfect, it decides the best person suitable for a given project in whole Upwork or in the whole world. Still this is not ok, because, who is the most suitable person for a project?
No, not the top-rated person, or the one with most number of reviews. These should only be supplementary. It shouldn't be used to throw away other freelancers' chance of being represented.
The right candidate is the one, who have many relevant past experiences AND who really understand that particular project in question, show his/her understanding through proposal, by analyzing the requirement, suggest ideas, questioning the contradictory in requirements and asks the right questions n the proposals.
Your clients are not dumb. Let them to choose who is the best, or whom they want to work with. You Upwork is not a commission agent / agency, but a marketplace. Your role is to provide a platform in which they interact and decide whom they want to work with. If you think otherwise, please announce yourself as an agency, charge 50% fees from freelancers and may directly award the projects to your best freelancers, selected by Advanced Technology.
In its current form, upwork is configured to win the projects only for certain individuals selected by half-baked algorithms, MLs and AIs. If you really care for the people who are the very reason of your existence of Upwork, stop trying to micro manage everything. And... you know what needs to be done. Thanks
===============
Update:
Our community member Nichola L made a very good point ( see her original message in second page 😞
"
Upwork is not abiding by its own rules:
6.3
Upwork does not introduce Clients to Freelancers and does not help Freelancers secure Engagements. Upwork merely makes the Site Services available to enable Freelancers to do so themselves.
"
Sep 13, 2015 01:34:18 PM by Jean S
At the moment there are suddenly 100's of contractors with personal websites in the their overviews and their portfolios are FULL links to their websites where their contact information is available. When I was hiring someone the other day and going through their listing they were everywhere.
This is an outright violation of the terms and I don't understand why the company is suddenly allowing this unless there has been a change and we all can do it.
If so I'd like to be told so I can send people to my website where I have more examples and where my contact information is available.
From the day I started 8 years ago this was never allowed so can someone tell me if this has changed?
Sep 14, 2015 11:41:20 AM by Cathleen C
"At the moment there are suddenly 100's of contractors with personal websites in the their overviews and their portfolios are FULL links to their websites where their contact information is available. When I was hiring someone the other day and going through their listing they were everywhere.
This is an outright violation of the terms and I don't understand why the company is suddenly allowing this unless there has been a change and we all can do it.
If so I'd like to be told so I can send people to my website where I have more examples and where my contact information is available.
From the day I started 8 years ago this was never allowed so can someone tell me if this has changed?"
Sep 14, 2015 01:34:33 PM Edited Sep 14, 2015 01:36:11 PM by Douglas Michael M
@Jean S wrote:At the moment there are suddenly 100's of contractors with personal websites in the their overviews and their portfolios are FULL links to their websites where their contact information is available. When I was hiring someone the other day and going through their listing they were everywhere.
This is an outright violation of the terms and I don't understand why the company is suddenly allowing this unless there has been a change and we all can do it.
If so I'd like to be told so I can send people to my website where I have more examples and where my contact information is available.
From the day I started 8 years ago this was never allowed so can someone tell me if this has changed?
Jean,
Apparently the profile reviewers are too busy telling people to dust off their diplomas, and conform their pictures to passport/mugshot style..
Best,
MIchael
Sep 13, 2015 02:44:42 PM by Mariska P
I think anyone that would report you would be quite the behind in my opinion.
I hate rats.
Hopefully no one is that mean to do that to you Evelina.
Sep 15, 2015 03:04:06 AM Edited Sep 15, 2015 03:05:02 AM by Evelina H
Who knows? 🙂 I suppose they would have their right to do that. I learned my lesson from this mistake, so from now on there's nothing much to do about it 🙂
... except be very careful with the rules and regulations, of course! 😉
Sep 13, 2015 10:10:22 AM by Garnor M
Hi Vadivelan and others,
I can confirm, and this is after speaking with our Legal team, that we are in compliance with our Terms of Service.
I will also confirm again that our systems/processes are built so that we can help clients and freelancers be successful here. It is in all of our best interests to help clients and freelancers find eachother so they can engage together and work together. When you succeed, and clients succeed, we succeed. We're going to continue doing what we can to foster that and that includes improving our systems (and algorithms).
Here's a bit more information in response to your feedback in this discussion thread:
Again, our top priority in freelancer search is the needs of our freelancers and our clients that use our marketplace and we must balance many competing priorities.
In order to satisfy these dueling priorities, we have developed many technologies that help us to understand client needs, predict client choices, identify the most relevant freelancers, and give all of those freelancers a shot at landing on the first page of search results. This is far from an exhaustive list but here’s a peek at how we do it:
By using these processes, Upwork does not introduce freelancers to clients or help freelancers find engagements. Instead, our algorithms further our priority in running our marketplace: to provide choices to clients and to provide opportunities to freelancers to be exposed to clients. This is our same goal for every area of our marketplace, whether a freelancer is submitting a proposal or searching through job posts or a client is searching for freelancers or reviewing client feedback on freelancer profiles. Displaying a freelancer as a result of a search is not the same thing as introducing that freelancer to the client.
Regardless of all of our efforts to make the process easier, freelancers remain completely responsible for finding their own clients and choosing and submitting proposals for projects in which they are interested. Likewise, clients remain completely responsible for vetting, screening, and choosing their own freelancers. We’re honored to provide the platform to make this happen.
Sep 13, 2015 07:09:26 PM by Olivier P
i am agree with Bruno . I really think the algorithm described not working : i have a customer sending a job offer and wanted me to make a proposal to test it . He never saw my proposal .
I have 3 customers who wqnt to leave here because they cannot find good proposals on specific jobs : upwork put in front some freelancers with no skills on the specific job asked/ And they are very disappointed with the bugs of the platform
I think it is to the customer to choose the perfect freelancer . It is not a machine learning process and it is not what customers are looking for here : They want to choose it by themself !
Sep 13, 2015 10:31:30 AM by Mark C
@Garnor M wrote:Hi Vadivelan and others,
I can confirm, and this is after speaking with our Legal team, that we are in compliance with our Terms of Service.
10 Upwork does not introduce Freelancers to Clients or help Freelancers find Engagements. Upwork merely makes the Site Services available to enable Freelancers to identify and determine the suitability of Clients for themselves and to enable Clients to identify and determine the suitability of Freelancers for themselves.
By filtering freelancers and hiding proposals, what is that, if not introducing and promoting chosen freelancers to clients?
Sep 13, 2015 11:10:59 AM Edited Sep 13, 2015 11:34:03 AM by Douglas Michael M
Mark C wrote:By filtering freelancers and hiding proposals, what is that, if not introducing and promoting chosen freelancers to clients?
@Mark,
I think the answer is "It's not because we say it's not, and our lawyers can beat up your lawyers."
One might also question the core operational resources and design dedicated to vetting and screening, for which clients are "completely responsible"—though one would not get an any more satisfactory answer.
@Garnor,
I'm trying to make the point, howver sharply, that further discussion along these lines will not get us anywhere. I actually appreciate your:
I wonder if might not serve everyone's interests to post this rationale in Official Upwork, or as part of the site's general documentation.
Best to all,
Michael
Sep 13, 2015 11:27:34 AM by Nichola L
Garnor's response should be held up as the perfect example of sophistry.
Sep 13, 2015 11:35:05 AM Edited Sep 13, 2015 11:36:42 AM by Douglas Michael M
@Nichola L wrote:Garnor's response should be held up as the perfect example of sophistry.
It's a pretty clear example of why there's no point in arguing semantics with lawyers.
Sep 14, 2015 05:15:01 AM by Todor V
Great postings! very insightful how the system works...and even more how it answers. My comments:
1. Replying that you consulted the legal team, means you do not listen to your clients (the freelancers and the clients).
The reality is, Upwork charges the freelancers for the services provided, and probably should listen to them. If they also charge the clients for posting a job, probably should also listen to them. At the end of the day, people will vote with their foots, and move to a place they can find work / freelancers.
This is a very bold response - we consulted the legal team....as if we are going to sue each other....when people are making suggestions to improve the site. Is this the prevailing attitude within the Upwork team??? Is this the way to respond to complains and suggestions???
2. Some freelancers commented that they started to reduce rates in order to get jobs. Please, do not do it. If the system is so wrong, it is not a matter of prices - your proposal will stil not get in front of the client. Reducing rates only hurts your reputation and self-esteem.
3. It was already said, but are the people from Upwrok so fond of algorithms that forgot the menaing of common sense? In my case, I mainly work on business plans and pitch decks preparations for investors. A lot of clients require skills in "writing" or "business writing", and I see a lot of applications from people with literature background. The funny thing is, when I look at My Stats page, I see myself compared with people in Writing category, and not for example, in Accounting and Consulting. And the graphs definitely are quite different. I would never think of competing in the writing section, and would not consider somebody with these skills as real competitor. But this is what the algorithms does - mix in one place apples with oranges.
Where is the common sense - asking the legal team if this My Stats approach is meaningful??
Sep 14, 2015 06:21:11 AM Edited Sep 14, 2015 06:23:12 AM by Douglas Michael M
@Todor V wrote:
Where is the common sense - asking the legal team if this My Stats approach is meaningful??
Todor,
Garnor mentioned, in a subordinate way, that he had consulted Legal because several people had raised a legal question: Does Upwork violate two clauses of its own Terms of Service? He was not invoking the authority of the law out of thin air, but doing due diligence before posting his response to that question. The bullk of his response has to do with Upwork's rationale for its policies and procedures, including various kinds of automation; this direction and rationale come not from Legal, but from strategic (top) levels of management.
Best,
Michael
Sep 14, 2015 07:07:40 AM by Valeria K
Thank you for sharing your feedback, Todor.
In addition to what Michael said, I would like to clarify a couple of things.
First, Upwork clients do not have to pay in order to post a job. Registering, posting a job and sending proposals on a Basic Freelancer plan is free.
Second, in the Marketing Effectiveness section of My Stats you are being compared with freelancers who also selected Accounting & Consulting as their main category. It doesn't necessarily mean peple who applied to the same jobs that you did.
Sep 14, 2015 08:37:22 AM by Dimitar O
You moderators are seriously missing the main point. And the main point is that the platform is broken. This guy here did his best to analyze and write about some serious problems and you're just trying to change the topic. You pick some words from the comments and just discuss on the wrong topic. Its not that bad to admit there is not properly working platform right now.. If i could change something here i would just return the good old oDesk platform till you manage to make the new one better for the users.
Sep 14, 2015 01:08:28 PM by Todor V
@Valeria K wrote:
Second, in the Marketing Effectiveness section of My Stats you are being compared with freelancers who also selected Accounting & Consulting as their main category. It doesn't necessarily mean peple who applied to the same jobs that you did.
Dear Valeria,
I really appreciate your willingness to help me navigate through the Upwork way of doing things. Unfortunately, I guess what you wrote is an assumption; the reality is that it took me about a month to get compared only within my category (Accounting & Consulting), and not within the category that Upwork algorithms decided that I have to be compared (Writing). The categories in which I was compared used to change according to the criteria that the algorithm decided that should be used for the last 90 days. As a result, some days My Stats section was showing one picture, and the nex day completely different.
By the way, the Upwork team was very friendly and helpful all the time. It took time for them to grasp what the problem was, and I think they "disabled" the algorithm for my case and now I only see My Stats within Accounting & Consulting. Basically, they did exactly what Vadivelan R. asked at the begining of this lead (let's keep focused), but at a smaller scale.
I also appreciate that you so kindly point out that My Stats graph does not compare me with the rest of the people who applied for the same job. I suggested to the Upwork team to account for how we performed on the jobs for which we applied, and not whithin the whole category, where everybody is mixed in terms of price and type of work. Unfortunately they did not take worked on this suggestion; have you also suggested the same functionality? Do you think it will be more useful than comparing people within a category?
Sep 14, 2015 08:13:30 AM by Garnor M
@Douglas Michael M wrote:
I wonder if might not serve everyone's interests to post this rationale in Official Upwork, or as part of the site's general documentation.
Best to all,
Michael
We'll consider this Michael, good idea.
Sep 14, 2015 11:14:43 AM by Todor V
Thank you, Dimitar, you hit the point.
It seems tha situation is the following:
1. Upwork arbitrary (or based on algorithms) treats differently the freelancers.
2. Freelancers complain, and say that, in addition to a being a bad practice, it is also against the ToS of Upwork
3. The response of Upwork is that it is not against their ToS (if you can belive it) and that they will contiunue doing what they want to do.
4. The status quo continues....
Probably the key difference here is if we want to accept to be managed by algorithms (the approach of Upwork), or by common sense (as seems to be the request of most of the people on this thread). It is not an issue of providing bad or good service, as each solution probably will have "collateral damages". It is about how to approach the very service provision - automated and complicated (as now), or providing a simple order of the applications (in time order, by price, etc.) in the request #8.
I used to live in a country where the economy was managed by algorithms. It was very "simple" - a computer calculates how many cars you need to produce, how many homes to build, etc., in order to achieve optimal use of resources. The result - historic moments like the fall of the Berlin wall, and almost 20 years of difficult return to common sense (and still not there...).
How long will it take for Upwork to listen to the people and to the common sense - no idea. I do not think we can change something here, as this is another way of perceiving and understanding what we need and how we should be served. If the management believes algorithms are better than listening to the people they serve, we will only get "legal" responses. Even if our "legal" concerns are - at least tell us what you are going to do in your ToS, or adhere to them.
Sep 14, 2015 11:50:55 AM Edited Sep 14, 2015 11:51:39 AM by Cathleen C
There aren't EVER going to be any changes made, unless it is a financial benefit for Upwork. Inserting themselves in the freelancer-client process with an algorithm allows them to manipulate results. Those results are designed to put more money in their pockets. Otherwise, I can't imagine they would spend millions (I have no idea what it costs, I am just repeating something I read in another thread) and be able to justify it to the board of directors if it wasn't going to make them big money back.
And if that algorithm were working correctly, it might be of advantage to me. Instead of clients having to filter through companies who specialize in SEO bidding on a logo design job, it might kick them into the hidden folder, allowing room for those of us who actually DO that kind of work to move to the top of the pile. But the problem is, the algorithm doesn't work correctly!
Sep 26, 2015 11:16:07 AM by William P
I am new to Upwork. I have had one job and talking with clients on a couple others. However, I had no idea there was this algorithm in place. I am trying to grow a job here on Upwork. But with the algorithm working against me, I can't get any traction. I figured it was just me, but now more experienced freelancers have this problem - of getting jobs. I put in some very good bids. Lower price, vast experience and detailed results. But since my qualifications don't exactly match the job, the algorithm throws me out. (I have not had responses to 17 bids). The algorithm prevents good clients from seeing what I can do for them. This is not fair. I am not sure what to do at this point. Any ideas? Thank you
Sep 17, 2015 10:19:49 AM by Jon M
I think you might be talking to a wall.
I have preposed many changes but none have been created.
Sep 17, 2015 10:35:56 AM by Jean S
It happens once in a blue moon and the next one is 2 years away. I thought you knew they don't respond.
Sep 19, 2015 01:38:32 AM Edited Sep 19, 2015 02:24:04 AM by Raitis S
Hello,
Lately in forums has been so much complaints about drop in the answer and hire rate, commenting about new futures, algorithms and everything else that’s going on here lately and I agree completely with most of it.
That got me most was post “Why Employers do NOT see your Proposal” by Vadivelan R. Don’t get me wrong, I got good clients and job for now, so it’s not a complaint, just thoughts about that upwork is now, but that it should be (in my opinion).
Let’s start with that in freelancing I am not so long, but I believe that freelance site should be safe marketplace for clients and freelancers to meet and conduct a business (it includes freelancer and client screening, escrow accounts, auto-time capture guarantees and similar things). It’s like craigslist on steroids. For offering safe environment provider gets a fee and I am ready to pay it, because in that way I don’t have to worry about most important thing – will I get paid (ok, there could be situations then client disagrees, etc, but in 98% it’s all good). Site should be only like middleman between freelancer and client (e.g. craigslist provides platform for seller to place an ad, but for buyer to find it). Then searching for some item, e.g. iphone 6 in “cell phones” category, it shows all of the items, sorting it by time an ad was placed. Yes, it’s possible to filter them out, but platform doesn’t shows 10 items for “recommended items” in whom 3 actually is iphone 5s (in ad text contains e.g. "looks better than new iphone 6", etc), 5 is accessories or some clothing with special pocket for iphone 6, and maybe 2 is ok. That’s exactly that happens here lately.
Then I started on odesk and elance, for me it seemed like offers to clients was showed in same order as offers was made -> it’s right way to do it. In this case job landing success was based on Your speed, determination, proposal quality, experience and feedback, but now You got algorithms who 95% of time excludes You from proposal list at all, so it's not more depending on You, but some machine.
This anymore isn't middleman who helps to meet client with freelancer providing safe environment for them, but feels like HR agency who advises for clients the candidates based on their own subjective assessment who is completely wrong (algorithms not working). This isn't that it should be. Yes, there must be some tools for clients to easier filter and get rid of bad freelancers and not appropriate offers, but it shouldn't change and intervene information, because sites task is to receive and transfer information and money from one side to another, for that receiving payment for their services, that’s all!
Lately it’s completely different – feels like Upwork is some HR agency, every payable client is God, even agency knows that client is low-balling client with bad or non reputation at all, and good candidate isn’t possible to get for that money, but fee is fee, right? WRONG!; recommendation algorithm is like HR agents, who before has worked in completely different profession and have no idea that they doing, but freelancer in this scenario is like beggar.
It’s completely wrong perspective on things from upwork management.
I really don't know that will happen with this site and where I will be in the few months, but one is clear - job quality has dropped significantly, for clients practically isn’t any screening at all, lot of freelancers are fake who offers plagiarism as their own, managements thinks only about budgets, incomes, etc, but forget what got them there – quality. If thing won’t change soon, most likely sooner or later this site will destroy itself. I don’t wish it, I hope that this site will be cleaned-up, but, unfortunately, doesn’t seems it that way, because it means investing lot of money, at the same time decreasing revenues and I don’t believe management and owners got gut for it.
That should be done? First, remove all the restrictions on the showing offers to clients, make them old fashion way – who is first, it’s first, make information to flow freely, not intervene with it. Keep elance open at least for so long as all bugs will be solved here. Secondly, check personal documents for all freelancers (yes, I said all, also old ones), ban and exclude ones who can’t provide them and ban clients who use plagiarism items in their profile or job, not only write “please take it down” (they don’t do this, because then here won’t be low-balling clients and with them – fee). But in this case You will get rid of low quality and plagiarism freelancers, at the same time increasing interest from higher profile clients who is ready to pay higher rates. Thirdly, screen all new clients, ask them for all the same credentials as for freelancers. Ban and exclude low balling and deceptive clients, ones who shows one budget, but in description is completely another, ones who is unresponsive to freelancer then job is done and holding out payments for long time, ones who got hire rate under some %, e.g. 60. There is so many restrictions for freelancers, but only one for clients – if You are ready to spend 5$, You are good to go, because they receive 50c in commission. It’s short term thinking.
Sorry for the long text, these is just my thoughts on the all thing that happens lately here. My English grammar isn’t not close the best one and in Latvian language It would sounded lot better, but I did that I could 😉
Sincerely,
Raitis
Sep 19, 2015 07:49:39 AM Edited Sep 19, 2015 08:47:38 AM by Tasos F
So, I've wasted 44 connects this month and didn't have a single interview. This is the first time it happens since 2012 when I joined.
Next month I will keep my connects for the last 10 days of the month, maybe by then all the top rated freelancers will have spent theirs and I will get a chance?
Last month I had plenty of interviews without even applying (had spent all my connects).
Sep 26, 2015 10:13:00 PM by Aaron H
Peoples' connects rollover one month from when they joined not the beginning/end of the month. To game the system you'd have to figure out what part of the month the majority of people opened their account here.
Sep 19, 2015 09:37:55 AM by Douglas Michael M
Oct 9, 2015 05:59:48 AM Edited Oct 9, 2015 06:03:43 AM by Alexandra H
Two things I don't agree with:
1) your so-called "deceptive clients", who show one budget at the top and another in the text --> there are clients who will initially enter a small sum but explain in the text that it is only a placeholder bid. I wouldn't penalise those. I know I don't go into shops waving a platinum credit card around before I've seen what's on offer.
2) hire rates of under 60% --> not a problem because we can see those before making our bids. It may just be case of very specific requirements. Clients shouldn't feel bad about returning, only about leaving jobs unawarded and not closing them to let us recoup our connects.
Sep 28, 2015 01:59:28 AM by Eloise M
Thanks for posting this, Vadivelan. Now things are starting to make more sense.
I'm relatively new - about a month, and started getting jobs on my second day of proposals (nearly all for proofreading/editing jobs).
But I've spent half of my connects this month and most of the proposals haven't even received a reply.
I was initially given a 'Rising Talent' badge (gone now), so I wonder if this caused the algorithm to push my proposals up the list at first?
Oct 2, 2015 07:56:04 AM by Jean S
What list? People keep talking about proposals being on a list and their is no such thing. As a client I see proposals as they come in. No one gets to the top of anything. I see all proposals in the order in which they came. With suggested freelancers all I get is a random list of people in no particular order.
Oct 9, 2015 01:27:49 AM by Mei L
One proposal I recieved (I am a client) was hidden and I only saw it by accident. I messaged that guy who was hidden but I did not get a reply. Maybe the reply was hidden, too?
Oct 9, 2015 08:47:14 AM by Muhammad F
You are right and you really did great effort by writin this thing deep details but it will be all in vain. I am user of Odesk since 2008 and in 2010 Odesk change its Ui to Blue, now the bugs comes from 2010.
I could not understand that Elance CEO shutting down elance and send userto upwork without making UW bug free.
Elance is still one of the best site in sense of Policy, UI, Features, navigation, Message and Ud-time is really good.
On the other side, Upwork site downs regularly, and there are many bugs.
Your described issue 7 is really important for freelancers that Client unable to see all bids, becuase of bug in jqiery preloader.
Oct 9, 2015 09:36:02 AM by Douglas J
Wow, that's an incredible find, and a fantastic analysis of just one of the many Upwork issues. The difference here is that the problems listed are objective, not just anectodal annoyance (not to invalidate the latter because there's PLENTY to be annoyed with).
Is Upwork even going to address these issues? Or are we just fighting a losing battle to a company firmly committed in spinning us "no no, trust us, everything is fine, there's no problem here" and ignoring every problem that's demonstrated?
Feb 7, 2016 10:05:18 AM by Renee S
THANK YOU
What an important post. I've been a member of this site since November and STILL haven't been hired for a job despite having sent out nearly 90 proposals (and following all the "best practices" advice) -- and now at least I know why.
Feb 7, 2016 11:25:49 PM by Tiffany S
The biggest issue I have with "top" and "recommended" freelancers being chosen inappropriately (if this is the case) isn't the advantage it gives the ones chosen, but the impression it gives to the client.
I've hired a lot of writers over the years, and if I posted a job in a place like this and received a "top ten" list that didn't include the skills I was looking for or was populated by inexperienced people or people whose skill sets were a bit off, I'd be inclined to think this site didn't actually have the type of contractors I was looking for and might not return.
Feb 8, 2016 01:42:22 AM Edited Feb 8, 2016 01:43:47 AM by Chris M
@Tiffany S wrote:The biggest issue I have with "top" and "recommended" freelancers being chosen inappropriately (if this is the case) isn't the advantage it gives the ones chosen, but the impression it gives to the client.
I've hired a lot of writers over the years, and if I posted a job in a place like this and received a "top ten" list that didn't include the skills I was looking for or was populated by inexperienced people or people whose skill sets were a bit off, I'd be inclined to think this site didn't actually have the type of contractors I was looking for and might not return.
Hi Tiffany,
Absolutely!
Potential clients might not return. The innapropriate recommendations along with innapropriate freelancers being returned in freelancer searches is a major root problem. Upwork will develop a worse and worse reputation amongst potential clients over time and eventually potential clients will not even try Upwork because of it's reputation.
I'm concerned about something I've noticed recently - if you Google 'Upwork' you are presented with an Upwork link and a link to another Freelancing platform suggesting you should try them instead because their platform works.
This must be indicative of the bad reputation that Upwork is developing.
I really do want the Upwork management and developers to address the many concerns of it's users very soon, to listen to us before it's too late.
Feb 8, 2016 12:31:44 PM by MD Shahadat H
I wish the moderators would talk about that post topic with their management !
Feb 8, 2016 12:38:02 PM by Lloyd M
Woooooooow such an amazing and insightful post. I thought, YES, Upwork will have to look at a post like this and make changes. But wait... this post was made when? Last September? Things have gotten worse since then!
Jun 1, 2016 06:45:46 PM by Diego W
Hey Im new here. This post worried me a bit.
Have something of this changed since last year??
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