How to deal with a bad client?

[brittanysteiger]

Hi Everyone, 

I'm new to Upwork and was really excited to get hired pretty quickly with a client who hired me to write content for a new product line. After getting started, my red flags are all going up. The initial product line (for which the client has an existing website) is not continuing. I spent about 5 hours on the initial content improvements (line review, research, and copywriting) only to be told they are not contuining with that product. They instead sent me some info for a new and different product line/branding (siimilar product in terms of they are all beauty products), for which I spent another 5 hours creating content, researching the line, competitors, etc. I submitted the copy, which the client indicated they were very happy with. A few days later I was notified that they are changing the brand again, this time with little information with which to complete the project. I also have not been paid for the 5 hours of work on the second brand image, and I never even billed for the work I prepared for the first brand. 

I've suggested that we place the contract/content development on hold until the brand is fully developed and positioned and am waiting to hear back from the client. However, I am unwilling to continue working for nothing, spending several hours writing content that is never used because the client doesn't know what product they are actually bringing to market. My time still has value, and I have other clients and potential clients, and if my content is being used to evaluate the product mix and branding, or is part of the overal product positioning considerations, I should be paid for my work regardless of whether or not its the final content utilized upon launch.

However, I do not want to get a bad reputation on Upwork. Any suggestions? Is this something that should be reported to UpWork? I'm beginning to be concerned this is some kind of scam. 

Thanks for your help!

[h3hdv7rlssvtxxzp]

First of all, in my mind, there are no bad clients, there are just bad deals. Some customers, of course are better than others, but here you are in essence doing business, so doing good "deals" is on your shoulders. Do not do bad deals. That being said, every business need to do bad deals sometimes, if not for anything else, but to learn how to do good.

Do it as good as you can, can try to avoid risk. If and when you can not avoid risk, spread it around. Make sure, what is perhaps most important, that you have a way out, exit plan. In UpWork exit plan may not be that easy or cheap, because it will hurt.

But, in order to grow your business, you need to take risks. And you need to find the customers who balance your risk, while having those you do not know.

Welcome to UpWork and hope you all the best!

[brittanysteiger]

I hear what you are saying with respect to keeping a positive attitude when dealing with clients,  but this does not answer my question about not being paid for my time. Aren't there terms of service set forth in Upwork? Is this something I should report? 

[tlbp]

When you do work, you get paid for your work. If you do not get paid for your work, you stop doing work for that client. 

[brittanysteiger]

Thank you Tonya.

[voskerchian]

Hey Brittany,

I see you have a contract with 5 hours worked. I hope you used the app for all 10 hours of your work. You will be paid for this. After the work week is ends your weekly timelog is available for review for 5 days, another 5 days "pending" and you will get paid.

Discuss your concerns with your client and try to make it as professional and positive as you can. A bad feedback for the first job is not the best thing you would want to see on your profile, especially for your first and only contract.

Happy freelancing!

[brittanysteiger]

Thanks for your reply. I never even billed for the first 5 hours, it's water under the bridge at this point, because the client changed the project before any deliverables were finished or submitted. However, upon the second modification, I submitted deliverables. When I asked her about payment for the content, she told me payment would come after the deliverables were edited, and more were created (for which she was going to send me product samples and videos). Instead of sending me products and video samples, she came back once again saying the project has changed and to abandon everything I've done so far.

My week ended and I have not been paid, and the client does not appear to be considering paying me for any of this work because the brand keeps changing. I am trying to work it out with her now, but I am really concerned that this is some sort of scam, and I am not willing to work for free for this client.

Is there some place to report terms of service violations through Upwork if I can't resolve on my own with the client? 

[voskerchian]

Britanny,

I think you are a little confused. For hourly contracts you don't submit work and ask for payment, It goes all by its own. If the time is tracked by the UW app, then you will be paid. No other way.

Consider reading this article to get more info about this:

https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/211063668-Get-Paid-for-Hourly-Contracts?flash_digest=fc...

[brittanysteiger]

That is helpful. I did submit 5 hours on an hourly rate through Upwork. It is showing as billed to the client but there are no payment transactions posted. My checking account info is all set up and the test transactions came out correctly. But, I have not been paid. I am not sure if maybe she has not set up her billing account? 

[brittanysteiger]

Thanks for the info. I will keep checking after next Wednesday for payment. This client seems new to Upwork, and I would not be surprised if something is not set up. As I've said my red flags are up here, but I'll continue, I'm working it out with the client, that isn't the issue. I just don't get the sense that this person actually wants to pay for the work.

[petra_r]

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@Brittany S wrote:

Thanks for the info. I will keep checking after next Wednesday for payment. This client seems new to Upwork, and I would not be surprised if something is not set up. As I've said my red flags are up here, but I'll continue, I'm working it out with the client, that isn't the issue. I just don't get the sense that this person actually wants to pay for the work.

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 You really, really REALLY need to simply figure out how this site works. If you use it right, it is very difficult for the client not to pay you. do you use the tracker when you work? Why would you even ask the client about payment when properly tracked hourly contracts are charged and billed automatically?

Have you ever even as much as looked at your Reports Overview Page?

Did you click through the tabs, looked at the info displayed when mousing over the question marks? Clicked on the big green "When will I get paid?" link?

[brittanysteiger]

First of all, not appreciative of your tone in this communication...yikes! As a new Upworker, I am soliciting feedback from those who have more experience using the site, and the links that have been posted thus far by other folks have been helpful for someone getting accustomed to the site. That said, I apprecite your willingness help.  I have checked the status of my timesheets and reports, I have used the tracker to track my hours, and have verified my payment methods with Upwork, all of which have been verified. I have reviewed the "where is my payment" tab. The status seems to be held in pending, perhaps that is normal.

My question was (and remains): if there is a situation in which a client can decide not to pay through Upwork or if a payment would not go through if they have not set up their payment information. Perhaps that point is moot within the setup of Upwork, and that they can't hire you if they don't have the payment verified. However, I'm certain there is some sort of function on the client side that allows them to "accept" the payment before it is made. Perhaps since I am new it's simply in process, however the only communication I see is "billed to client" and it's been at that status for about a week. But it does look like (per the flowchart you sent me below) that it can take up to 14 days.

My real issues are a lack of communication with the client (which I am trying my hardest to resolve currently). Once it seems thee project is back on track, she sends a new message telling me to re-do everything because they've totally changed directions. My concern is that this client doesn't actually have a product to market, because she keeps changing direction and it seems almost to be some kind of "ghost company". To be honest, I don't know what kind of scams could exist on a platform like this (being a new user) but my red flag is really going up here. 

Perhaps I jumped the gun in accepting a client as I was eager to try out this platform, that's totally fair. I currently have two other freelance clients (which I have obtained through business relationaships) so I'm simply not accustomed to the format nor to working with clients I've procured through the web.

The reason that I came here was to find out firsthand if there are ways to report clients if they turn out to be a scam, or if anyone has any negative experiences like this, and if there is a situation when a client just doesn't pay through the app. I'm not asking someone to re-state the directions which I can clearly read (and have read) myself. I'm asking for actual personal experiences, and does anyone have any negative ones in which a client did a number on them. Personally, I think it's smart to ask such things when trying out a new web platform, but maybe that's just me. 🙂

[petra_r]

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@Brittany S wrote:

1)  I have checked the status of my timesheets and reports, I have used the tracker to track my hours, and have verified my payment methods with Upwork, all of which have been verified. I have reviewed the "where is my payment" tab. The status seems to be held in pending, perhaps that is normal.

2) My question was (and remains): if there is a situation in which a client can decide not to pay through Upwork or if a payment would not go through if they have not set up their payment information. Perhaps that point is moot within the setup of Upwork, and that they can't hire you if they don't have the payment verified.

3) However, I'm certain there is some sort of function on the client side that allows them to "accept" the payment before it is made.

4) My concern is that this client doesn't actually have a product to market, because she keeps changing direction and it seems almost to be some kind of "ghost company".

5) The reason that I came here was to find out firsthand if there are ways to report clients if they turn out to be a scam, or if anyone has any negative experiences like this, and if there is a situation when a client just doesn't pay through the app.

1) It is indeed normal for hourly payments to be in "pending" but yours should not be, because it is Wednesday. On a Wednesday no hourly payments are in "Pending", they are either in "in progress" (if logged this week) or "under review"(if logged last week) or under "available" if logged the week before. If they are under Pending then something is not as it should be. Could you please check again? Only bonuses, payments for fixed rate contracts etc can be under "Pending" on a Wednesday.

2) If you used the tracker to track your time, the screenshots in your work diary have adequate work memos, activity levels are high and screenshots only work related, then you are protected even if the client does not pay or disputes. If you used manual time or the above does not all apply, you are not protected.

3) No. Clients are billed and charged on Monday for the previous week. They then have until Friday midnight to dispute the hours if needed, but if your hours were properly (see 2) tracked you are protected.

4) On an hourly contract it does not matter how many crazy ideas your client has, just track the time it takes.

5) Yes, but there are no real signs here of a scam. The client hired you and paid. The client's payment method is verified or it would show as unverified on your my job page like this:

And you'd have had a warning email with the subject line:

Urgent: Contract started, but payment is not guaranteed: xxxxxxxx

[gilbert-phyllis]

Brittany, you have two different sets of questions here. Regarding the mechanics of getting paid, Petra is right that you need to go to the Upwork Help Center and read all of the available information about different types of contracts, how to set them up, how the billing cycles work (they are different for hourly contracts than for fixed-price contracts), how and when payment protection applies, etc. People here (in this forum) are generous with their time and happy to help, but if you come in posing the same very basic questions that get asked over and over, week after week, by new freelancers who jump in without doing any homework, then some of the responses you get are going to be more instructive and less patient than you are looking for.

The challenge of dealing with this client is where you can really get valuable advice here. It sounds to me like she doesn't really know what she's doing and/or is getting yanked around from above and/or is inexperienced hiring and using freelance help. And she seems new to Upwork, as well. In light of it being your very first contract, IMO the most important thing is getting out of it--now or after performing more work--with good client feedback. Continuing to communicate as clearly as you can is the best thing to do, and making sure she understands your expectation that you'll be paid for any and all work performed as assigned, regardless of whether or not she changes her mind about using it. If you are pretty confident about your spidey sense telling you she's trying to get out of paying you, then my advice is to try and get out of the contract without doing any more work. If she's consciously cheating you, it may not be possible to extricate yourself without making her mad, and she may be spiteful enough to give you bad feedback. But if she's simply being inept, then maybe you can diplomatically get out of it without raising her ire.

Regarding other people's experiences with scams, incompetent clients, unscrupulous clients, and other challenges, the forum is an encyclopedia. Do some searching and browsing, and you'll find a wealth of anecdotal accounts and useful discussions.

[brittanysteiger]

Thanks much, this is really helpful. I didn't realize I had asked questions that are redundant...I suppose my red flags are up, and I was hoping I could get some quick answers through this community. Hopefully the payment will be processed soon, since it is definitely still in pending status. I'm attempting to work with the client, but I suppose it's a valuable lesson for the future on what to look for in an Upwork client's profile (i.e. how are they rated, etc.). I'm new to the platform, and I was eager to give it a try. 🙂 

Thanks so much! 

[nkocendova · Accepted solution]

Hello Brittany,

I've checked and the hours you worked last week are not pending but in the review period. Unless the client disputes these hours then you will be paid, however please note that manual time is not covered by Hourly Protection.  For more information, please have a look at this article about Hourly Protection.

[brittanysteiger]

Thank you, will use the timer in the future. Good to know. Appreciate the help!!

[resultsassoc]

I disagree about no bad clients, just bad deals. Bad clients make for bad deals.

First, submit a manual time sheet for the time worked on the first effort. You fulfilled the task assigned; the client's view of the second effort's quality indicates to me that you did the first piece well. The reasons for doing this are many; the biggest reason is maintaining your professionalism, and improving his. He needs to understand that hourly contracts pay for effort expended at the instruction of the client. If he doesn't learn that, he might become a scammer (assuming he isn't one already).

Check out Upwork's process for billing the client, and paying you, for hourly work. He might not yet have been billed by Upwork; he may have paid the invoice, but you don't see money because Upwork holds your money for five days. I know it sucks. I avoid hourly work whenever I can.

In your future responses to hourly jobs, consider stating that you will invoice for hours spent working according to client's instructions. Add something like that to your profile. I also am a client, and don't do business with mousy, fearful freelancers. I paid a private hire for beta reading a novel when she misunderstood and read the first book in the series, instead of the second. I might have been unclear in my instructions. She then read the second book, and her input was incredibly valuable. I paid her again, and learned to be clearer in instructions.

Your reputation is your greatest asset as a freelancer. A reputation for being abused, even if unintentional, doesn't do you any good. It will win you work, just not work you want. A reputation for expecting to be treated as a professional will win you the work you want. In 100% of my responses: "I never accept work without first exploring a fit with the client. We will have at least one chat." In complex projects, I provide a real proposal once selected for the work, not an Upwork fill-in-the-blank response. Every proposal contains a section on the client's responsibilities.

In your place, had I accepted the hourly work, I would tell the client that I'm happy to continue working with you, but we need to put this on a fixed-price basis. Each change in scope of work will result in a change in price. I have a similar issue with a current client. The first job was hourly, and it was of a type where I accept hourly jobs. We agreed to the next job's fixed price, milestones and milestone prices. He posted it as hourly. As with your client, he keeps changing his mind, and is unfocused as well. I've been paid for one $100 hour, and will fire the client the next time we interact. I have fired about one client a year for the past dozen years.

Good luck.

[brittanysteiger]

Thanks for your feedback.

[tlbp]

So you are really in a situation where there is no reason to believe that you won't be paid, you just didn't understand how to read the reports correctly? On hourly work, there are steps to follow to ensure that your payment is protected- you should learn those. Fixed price is much riskier. In either event, there is a substantial amount of time between work submission and actual payout to you. So while scams and bad clients can happen, a lag between work and payment isn't in itself a red flag. 

Treat Upwork and any recourse through Upwork as a very last resort because the protections are very limited. You are an independent business owner using the platform, so it is up to you to know how to guide your client and protect yourself.  I don't mean that as a criticism,  but as a caution. Freelancer beware. 

[resultsassoc]

Hasmik talked about time-tracked hours and automatic payment. Few clients know that the time-tracker is so easily bypassed that it is worthless. It's the only way to be guaranteed payment for hourly work (another reason I avoid hourly jobs). When I do hourly work it's direct one-on-one with the client, and I submit manual time sheets.

As a provider, I invest a lot of effort in vetting my clients, and won't respond to an appealing post if I doubt the client. And, after exploring a fit, I turn down about one-third of jobs offered. As a client, I typically use invitation-only, and spend two hours reviewing profiles before inviting ten or fewer. Job reviews mean very little to me. A single bad review, even if it's for the only job you've had, is meaningless. A pattern of five bad reviews, all noting the same deficiency, is something else. And, I ignore 5.0 reviews. Most clients hand them out like candy, and they require no thought. A 4.6 review requires thought, and is a better recommendation.

If your client is new to Upwork, and you're new to Upwork, there are likely to be difficulties. Upwork has automated everything it can, and its processes are designed to work with the software, rather than designing the software to work with good processes.

[reinierb]

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@Bill H wrote:

Hasmik talked about time-tracked hours and automatic payment. Few clients know that the time-tracker is so easily bypassed that it is worthless. It's the only way to be guaranteed payment for hourly work (another reason I avoid hourly jobs). When I do hourly work it's direct one-on-one with the client, and I submit manual time sheets.

As a provider, I invest a lot of effort in vetting my clients, and won't respond to an appealing post if I doubt the client. And, after exploring a fit, I turn down about one-third of jobs offered. As a client, I typically use invitation-only, and spend two hours reviewing profiles before inviting ten or fewer. Job reviews mean very little to me. A single bad review, even if it's for the only job you've had, is meaningless. A pattern of five bad reviews, all noting the same deficiency, is something else. And, I ignore 5.0 reviews. Most clients hand them out like candy, and they require no thought. A 4.6 review requires thought, and is a better recommendation.

If your client is new to Upwork, and you're new to Upwork, there are likely to be difficulties. Upwork has automated everything it can, and its processes are designed to work with the software, rather than designing the software to work with good processes.

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Bill,

You make an interesting observation, but it does make make me wonder if you feel that your own 5 star reviews were handed to you like pieces of candy, and that they in no way reflect the quality of your work.

Could the reason you feel this way be the fact that you have multiple less than stellar reviews?