Fixed price vs hourly with fixed price

[451e2449]

I am hiring a freelancers with fixed price but he asked me to hire him hourly with fixed price . Is it ok? My fear is that if doesn’t finish the job ask me to pay more.

[prestonhunter]

No, it is not okay.

Because there is no such thing as "hourly with fixed price".

Your options are:

- hourly

- fixed-price

- automatic weekly payment

re: "My fear is that if doesn’t finish the job ask me to pay more."

Yes, that is a possibility.

But clients often choose hourly contracts when they want higher quality work. Fixed-price is not chosen for the sake of quality. Fixed-price is chosen in order to know the price for a specific task ahead of time.

No matter what contract types you choose, the project can fail if not managed properly.

If you don't know how to manage a project, then hire an independent project manager.

[kkears]

"But clients often choose hourly contracts when they want higher quality work." -- Was there some official survey where clients said this? Or where is this coming from?

(Freelance copywriter here)

I only charge fixed prices or break projects into milestone payments. I think it's off-base to imply that if clients want higher quality work, then they should choose hourly contracts. This is putting an inaccurate idea in clients' heads about what yields high-quality work. 

[prestonhunter]

re: "I only charge fixed prices or break projects into milestone payments. I think it's off-base to imply that if clients want higher quality work, then they should choose hourly contracts. This is putting an inaccurate idea in clients' heads about what yields high-quality work."

Katie:
I appreciate your post.

I think you are providing an important perspective, and I hope clients will read it.

So let me simply stipulate: I think you are right.

I am not a copywriter.

I am thinking of things more from my perspective, as both a client and freelancer.

Obviously this principle depends on the situation.

Here is an example:

A freelancer hired a developer using a fixed-price contract to create a web page that lets users enter registation informaton for their business. The web page worked, and did exactly what he client wanted.

But there were no comments in the source code. This made it harder for other people on the team to work with the source code.

Another client hired a freelancer to do the same task, using an hourly contract. The freelancer provided ample comments in the source code. The quality of the hourly freelancer's work was higher. The fixed-price contract freelancer had no incentive to spend more time than was necessary to accomplish the stated task.

On another project, a client used a fixed-price contract and hired a freelancer to create a data loader for a large file.

The loader took 1 minute to load the file into the database.

The same client hired another freelancer using an hourly contract. The first version of this freelancer's work loaded the data file in 1 minute.

But the freelancer told the client that he had ideas that could make the loader work faster. The client said go ahead and work on it more. The client spent more time, and got the load speed time to one second, using techniques that took longer to implement. But in the end, it was worth it, because the company uses the loader on dozens of files every day.

By using an hourly contract to enhance quality, the company ended up saving time and money in the long run.

[kfarnell]

You could equally have said that a fixed price contractor suggested an additional milestone to cover new tasks, or an hourly contractor made things drag out by performing unnecessary tasks until they'd used all hours possible that week.

People's ability to upsell is unrelated to payment method as is their availability to take on tasks beyond what was initially agreed.

And neither have anything to do with the quality of their work.

[prestonhunter]

All good points.

The more that a client understands how both major contract models work, the more power he has to achieve his goals.

[designengr-cad]

Preston,

You seem to have strong opinion about hiring hourly.  As a freelancer, I have managed to avoid hourly jobs because Upwork wants me to install and run an intrusive software on my computer that records screen shots of what I am doing.  Well besides being a flagrant violation of confidentiality, I work on different projects through out the day and sometimes I do internet research on a different computer so that my high end work machine is not cruising the internet.

I have been consulting without upworks for over 25 years and my clients trust me to the point where they usually don't ask me for a price to do a job, they just hand it to me and say we need it done, go do it.

I have read several of your opinions on these posts an I sense that you don't trust the people you work with.  Unfornately, I imagine your opinions make potential clients fearful.  Perhaps I should stop using this platform as a freelancer and stick with what I know is successful.

Respectfully, Scott

[prestonhunter]

re: "I have read several of your opinions on these posts an I sense that you don't trust the people you work with."

I am not sure why you thought this. The people I work with are great.

I trust the clients I work with.

But I have a lot of knowledge about the Upwork platform as a whole. I am able to advise Upwork users who have questions. And I am aware that not all people who claim to be clients are trustworthy.

re: "I imagine your opinions make potential clients fearful."

I have hired 178 freelancers on Upwork. I am not fearful of the platform. I have spent a lot of money on the platform hiring freelancers.

It is not clear to me why you would think that my posts would cause clients to be fearful.

If it it provides any consolation, clients don't read my posts.

Maybe a tiny fraction of 1 percent of Upwork clients have ever read any of my posts. So regardless of what I said, whether it is brilliant or terrible, it does not have any measurable impact on client usage of the platform.

[designengr-cad]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I am relatively new to Upworks and like many freelancers that I read about, I have had my challenges Landing work. Because of those challenges I invested the time to read some of the comments left on the client side as well as the Freelancer side.

I appreciate the advice and wisdom that you share with others on the platform. 
Over the course of being a freelancing member for over one year, I have managed to work on three jobs. This effort has resulted in no job score which I read is very important.  So even though I have put in the effort to submit proposals and interview with clients, successfully complete the tasks that they requested and been paid by milestone method and by doing so have provided Upworks with handsome fees, I am still frustrated by the lack of a job score.

Would you care to share your thoughts about that? I realize it is off the original topic.

Kind regards, Scott

[37ea7c36]

Yeah, Scott. UpWork's idea of taking screenshots of what one is doing is a bit unwise. 

[bobafett999]

Well there is a way to get around that.  I had offered few buyers the option of hourly contract with max cap on hours.  In some cases I was below my cap, while in some cases above.  Fortunately, I had clients (not cheapo buyers) they covered some overage and that was fine.

[prestonhunter]

re: "Well there is a way to get around that. I had offered few buyers the option of hourly contract with max cap on hours. In some cases I was below my cap, while in some cases above. Fortunately, I had clients (not cheapo buyers) they covered some overage and that was fine."

Prashant:
That works for you and the clients who hire you because you are an honorable and honest freelancer.

But this is an example of "mixing," and Upwork doesn't support mixing.

Clients are of course welcome to try this, but Upwork will not observe the arrangement.

Here are examples:

A client named "Peter" hired a freelancer to create 10 illustrations. The time was capped at 5 hours.

The freelancer created 2 illustrations, after which the time was used up. The freelancer closed the contract and stopped responding to the client. The client expected 10 illustrations for that price, but only received 2. The client complained to Upwork. Upwork did nothing about this, because the client was mixing. The client was required to pay the full amount for 2 illustrations instead of 10 illustrations.

Here is another example:
A client named "Earl" hired a freelancer to edit a 100-page manuscript. The freelancer agreed to do this with an hourly contract, but bill no more than 5 hours. Once the freelancer had finished, the freelancer had logged 15 hours of time. The freelancer closed the contract and stopped responding to the client. The client complained to Upwork, but Upwork did nothing, because the client was mixing. The client was required to pay for all 15 hours of work, instead of the 5 hours he had planned on paying for.

In these two examples, the freelancers did not break any Upwork rules.

When clients hire freelancers using an hourly contract (which is how I personally always hire freelancers), they pay for the time that the freelancer logs. They are not paying for a specific outcome.

Question: Does a verbal mixing agreement between the freelancer and client count?
Answer: No.

But for any clients reading this: If the freelancer you hire is 100% honest, then you have nothing to worry about!

[bobafett999]

Preston Agreed.  It only works on the honor system.  I have been cheated also, but that is OK.  It is better to lose few hours of labor vs losing everything or getting in to dispute mode and get aggraveted!

[prestonhunter]

Yeah.. My dispute policy:

Don't get into a dispute.

[feed_my_eyes]

Many freelancers prefer hourly because Upwork offers better payment protection: also, hourly contracts pay out each week, whereas we only get paid for fixed price projects when a milestone is completed (and the client can drag out the approval process). So there are very good reasons why your freelancer is making this request; they aren't necessarily trying to trick you into paying more.

But, your fears are not unfounded, either; read this thread: https://community.upwork.com/t5/Clients/Freelancer-asking-for-more-money/m-p/1112476#M84639

So it comes down to whether you trust the freelancer or not. Do they have lots of good reviews? Then you're probably fine.

[prestonhunter]

Scammers have been abusing the fixed-price system. They have been using stolen credit cards, causing freelancers to lose time and money.

Also, non-scammer clients have abused the fixed-price contract model.

It is reasonable to expect that many good freelancers are refusing to work using fixed-price contracts.