Loose Money in Upwork

[#1]

I recently hired a fake or unprofessional freelancer.

He was charging for doing something out of our work instruction. Eventhough if he did work according to our instruction, he ended up never giving the work nor proof of his works. I've been asking for his work evidence since 4 weeks which has passed by.

On the other hand, Upwork has time limited of 4 weeks for dispute. In total, we lost money amounted charged $150 (on $4/hr rate). I can't imagine if he was charging at a much higher rate.

So, I personally would want to pay higher to someone who has a unique skill/talent that I need as well as professional. But if he does not have any of that, why would a client pays these guys higher ?

Why would a client pays a higher ammount on this platform to a replacedable freelancer where/whom you can pay to in a lower amount ? (asume SAME QUALITY!).

p.s

Do NOT correlate PRICE with QUALITY in this discussion !, because it is NOT correlated at all what so ever ! 

It's more about correlation in beetween of PRICE with UNIQUENESS !.

So I hope upwork find more freelancers whom are tagged as unique to increase the platform's UX and income !

[#2]

Loose money just doesn't have any self-respect and needs to tighten up its morals.

[#3]

I am sorry, I did not understand. Seems just another out of topic discussion.
The discussion is, I will loose more money if I hire a higher salary freelancer, so if the freelancer is replaceable, why would I hire the expensive one ? Assume same quality.
You know you can buy same exact shoe by the same maker but at a different price right?

I know how freelancers thinks, because I have the experience working for someone else too. I feels I deserve a higher salary because I can produce more works in a more efficient time, faster, and better quality. Even my boss said I have all of that and were very sad to have me leave. But eventually, his final decision for a raise was not because any of that. But it's because of the external condition we're in which became the consideredable factor (market).

But then when I start hiring here, I realize some clients would be willing pay higher than what I can pay. So that initiate my original unanswered questions.

[#4]

You can actually determine the quality of the freelancer based on his or her performance for other clients. Look for the JSS, read the reviews. If you want quality, don't hire someone with no or low JSS and/or negative reviews. 

[#5]

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Randall S wrote:

You can actually determine the quality of the freelancer based on his or her performance for other clients. Look for the JSS, read the reviews. If you want quality, don't hire someone with no or low JSS and/or negative reviews. 

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I wish that were true. I know a freelancer that has been reported several times by clients for deliving machine translation. Sadly enough they all did a test she did great in and release the payment and left a feedback before reviewing the work. So the JSS can be quite meaningless and Upwork should start removing freelancer that have been reported as scammers.

ETA: That freelancer charges the sames rates as I do.

[#6]

Finally I found a decent comment which I sadly missed here, whom does not really talking and relating price on quality like a dork joke. 😂

Anyway, eventhough out of the topic discussion, I do agree reviews correlates with quality. But pay attention on the feedback filters such as how large the project is. They can garner fake reviews from small projects just to make it look good.

But really, I was hoping you answer me why would you pay more for a freelancer of same service to another freelancer (assuming same quality) ?

If user A and B sells data entry work, everything else is same, like have the same amount of reviews (so assume same quality), same experience etc, so why would any clients pay one of them for more ?

[#7]

Actually at least 4 of the people who have responded are clients who hire regularly through Upwork, including myself.

[#8]

"Actually at least 4 of the people who have responded are clients who hire regularly through Upwork, including myself."

=>> how do I really tell which is client or not ? I can just interpret by the way they talk..

What are their answers ? 

"I really don't understand what you are trying to argue. You hired someone to work for a cheap price. So you got a cheap result. No, paying someone more does not guarantee a better result, but, in general, a better quality result is going to cost more than what you paid for a poor result.  And yes, you are correct: the quality of the work often does rely on a good working relationship between the client and the freelancer. 

=> I dont need arguments, I need answers beside PRICE = QUALITY. But it seems that is the only answers I get, so people hire more because they THINK based on delusionally (not fact) that they'll get higher quality.

Have you tried what i've been doing ? statistically, hire 10 cheap freelancers hence you'll get one good freelancers. It's true, if you hire 10 expensive freelancers, you can get 2 good ones. But I hire for long term, so I prefer to find cheap ones for long-term works.

"So what is your point?   You refuse to pay more and expect to get a better result? You know the colloquial definition of insanity, right? "  

=>> Do you know managers and HR in many companies (especially MNC) are hired and worked HARD to find best price best quality employees ?

I don't expect better result, I asume same quality. I just want someone who would works harder not because get's paid more. That's what most MNC are doing, do you never knew that ?? LOL, try your self works for MNC.

==> 

EDUCATE YOURSELF WITH THESE ECONOMIC TERMS :

- Bidding vs Auction

- Demand & Supply Equilibrium (adam smith invisible hand theory)

=> So you'd know that there's NO CORRELATION between PRICE vs QUALITY.

Doing the same thing over and over and expecting  a different result.  If you want a better result YOU need to do something different when you hire and work with a freelancer next time. That could mean more vetting, that could mean paying a higher price, that could mean more supervision (since you're hiring  likely less experienced freelancers as well). Remember the success or failure of your project really rests with you, no one else.  What can you do  differently to change the outcome?"

=> more vetting, supervision -> AGREE

=> paying a higher price ->  NOT AGREE, LOL 

=> hiring  likely less experienced freelancers as well, -> I do hire more experience with slightly more expensive, like $1-2/hr higher . Like I said, if they're not unique, hence, why should I hire $20 more ?...

=> Remember the success or failure of your project really rests with you, no one else. -> Agreed

=>  What can you do  differently to change the outcome?" -> Work harder than you would, it's already prooven you just wants to make it easier for your self by simply paying more expecting in get a better result (eventhough that may not be correct). Many online mentors (which you could find in youtube), would say "If you can't make money with little money, then you would probably won't be able to make money with big money", would you agreed to that ?

I do

[#9]

"Actually at least 4 of the people who have responded are clients who hire regularly through Upwork, including myself."

[#10]

=>> how do I really tell which is client or not ? I can just interpret by the way they talk..

[#11]

What are their answers ? 

[#12]

You assume a lot of things about people responding here, including that we don't work hard or that we pay too much for talent. But we are not the ones complaining about our hires in an open public forum and complaining about losing money. Maybe you need to think more about how you're losing money.

No one is arguing that you have to hire more expensive freelancers. We have said that of you're having trouble with quality then looking at your pay rate can solve that issue. But you seem happy wasting money on bad quality until some provides you good quality at the price you want. In my business time is money, so I don't want to waste time looking for a low rate, good quality freelancer. I vet freelancers based on their portfolios, an actual interview, and test work (paid). I pay whatever the rate is of the person who provides good quality depending on my budget, and so I pay higher for fast and good. And my business does quite well. I don't come in here and complain about losing money.

So instead of telling us all to work harder, remember that you're the one losing money, not us.

[#13]

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still".  Benjamin Franklin.

[#14]

I did not loose money because I hired cheap freelancers, why not a single one of you here pointing out to me that I did actually have some experience loosing money on an expensive freelancers ?

I am here not complaining loosing money or time nor because I hired cheap or low quality freelancers!.
But I complained how the disputing time frame and how it is abused-able thus causing loosing money. But you all start assuming that I loose money because of cheap freelancers, this is so stupid.

Well in my business if you paid for something higher than what someone else would have sell it for cheaper, that is loosing money. Educate your self with the term 'OPPORTUNITY COST'.

Any rational person in my position will start have the feeling that you're all here in this discussion are either freelancers or someone who's working in Upwork trying to rip me off (or any clients that pass by the discussion) by telling me to hire expensive freelancers thus Upwork wins more fee and I loose money through the opportunity cost.

So if you're a client, you should introduce your self as one and share your experience on cheap VS expensive freelancers like I did if you do think quality are related to price.

The only thing that I think why you all think price is related with quality is actually because the fact that more expensive freelancers would be more motivated thus provides you good work quality. That's your problem where you can't manage or motivates a cheaper freelancers to serve you with a good quality. Because that's what a good manager are paid for to do : HIRE BEST PRICE - BEST QUALITY !, And motivate their cheap labors 😂. But remember, expensive freelancers still can give you bad work quality. Because we're not buying a machine here you know ? We're buying a human, so you can't set them up like a button where it's like expensive = good, cheap = bad. Hence u called me insane ? Lol.

If you're a freelancers struggling to get paid more, then educate your self with the terms I mentioned many times before eventhough it's not related to my original question, but I just wanna do good things for mankind.

Here :

Demand & supply theory by Adam Smith the invisible hand

Bid Vs Auction, where bid means the price on a service goes low but on auction price would goes up.

Monopoly vs perfect market, well if your freelancing hence u r on the perfect market where there are so much competition on price.

[#15]

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Ilham B wrote:
No one can answer my original question because there is no Single client in this discussion. 

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There are several clients in this discussion. Your original question was answered.
You just didn't LIKE the answers, the same as with all your other threads.

[#16]

You're wrong, I just missed their answers. I did like their answer because they did NOT correlates price on quality like a joke.

Well unfortunately, they still not entirely answered what was the original question

[#17 · Accepted solution]

Why does it even matter what others choose to do? If you want to hire cheap freelancers then hire cheap freelancers. If I place a higher value on the work done then I will pay higher.   

If you're happy with the quality you get at the price point you pay then what is all this about?  What is it exactly you need help with?  How exactly are you losing money, as your original post states?

[#18]

"Why does it even matter what others choose to do?"
=> Well its a forum discussion, we can ask anything we want here right ?!

"If you're happy with the quality you get at the price point you pay then what is all this about?"

=> If you don't understand the term opportunity cost, then it's your problem. Not my problem if you loose money. Remember, I am not the one loosing money here due to opportunity cost, but it's you.

"If you want to hire cheap freelancers then hire cheap freelancers. If I place a higher value on the work done then I will pay higher."   

=> Now this makes sense and its really answered my original question. So now I know that basically each individuals has the ability to value a freelancer based on their self irational judgement.

To conclude it :

So if there are 2 same pair of shoes, same quality, same brand, same time, same maker, just being sold at two different place. You would buy one higher than me because you feels it's deserved a higher price.

"What is it exactly you need help with?"

"How exactly are you losing money, as your original post states?"

My problem is Ioose money due to upwork's poor algorithm and SOP, not because of cheap freelancers brings poor quality of works. 

[#19]

I am well aware of the concept of opportunity cost. And I think the problem is your poor understanding of how that concept fits into the grander scheme of doing business.

Regarding the money YOU are losing, it's because you do not use Upwork properly and follow the SOP that you lose money, nothing else. You need to learn how to use Upwork so that you can stop losing money.

If you don't like the shoes then don't buy them.

[#20]

Am I the only one who takes issue with this person equalling hiring freelancers to buying shoes or buying people???
The problem here, my friend, is you, and how you are treating your CONTRACTORS (Yes, that is what they are called. Not shoes!)
You have been condescending to almost everyone here. Us being freelancers doesn't mean we don't understand the BASIC business terms.
As far as your leadership and hiring skills go, I can only imagine how you treat your freelancers based on the attitude you have towards the community here.
Lastly, MNCs don't ever hire people on $3/hr. It is less than even pennies on a dollar. So, dont expect "morale", "motivation", or other BUZZ WORDS you have used here. It's one thing to pay less, but if you don't even have a basic etiquette of treating people, no one would ever want to do quality work on your project.
If the client is good and nice, people might work with motivation and quality- even if they are paid less. Sadly, that is not the case here!

[#21]

Hi All,

Thank you all for being a part of this discussion. However, we would like to ask you to be respectful toward other community members even if your opinions differ. Please, be mindful of the Community Guidelines and avoid making personal attacks.

Thank you!

[#22]

re: "Am I the only one who takes issue with this person equalling hiring freelancers to buying shoes or buying people?"

Wasiq:

I don't think that is exactly how he would put it. He may think that such a characterization of his position is twisting his words.

For what it is worth, although you may not agree with the original poster's positions on the topics discussed in this thread... his viewpoints deserve a place here in the Forum. His posts represent a clear viewpoint. I do not doubt his sincerity. I think everybody who reads this thread can learn from it, even if they don't agree with everything said here.