why upwork going worst day by day ? | payment reveresed chargeback , not secure freelancers

[raj0kumar00rk]

Now I notice that Upwork going to worst day by day.

today I got the notification for the reverse payment and chargeback and the contract was closed prox 50days ago with 5 stars and good feedback.

1. why do we use Upwork if someone hires freelancers and reverses all payments after 1 or 2 months and repeat this loop again and again with a new account? ( so basically we will work for free? )

2 . I added all proof of work and chats but even after 6 hours no reply from the Upwork support team ( looks like it's normal for Upwork, why Upwork employee is too lazy and not guiding me on what I can do ?)

3. I notice that Upwork saying contact your client and ask for a discussion (since the client is doing scam and why Upwork is thinking he/she will come for a discussion ? ) 

4.  I notice that upwork in mention rebuttal and I don't know what is this.

5. why does upwork have 7 day processing time if anytime upwork can reverse the payment?

6. who will give compensation for my time and afford after chargeback(payment reversed )?

( upwork you are totally responsible for this you can't just run away )

*Edited for Community Guidelines**

[759e32fa]

Hi Raj,

This is a difficult situation and I understand your frustration. Some reversals (chargebacks) are a result of the client contacting their bank and asking them to reverse the payment.

In these cases, we look to our Terms of Service (TOS) for guidance and follow it by taking two steps:

1. We seek reimbursement from freelancers/agencies in cases where their client makes a payment, asks their bank to reverse it, and the bank does. (see more detail in sections 6.3-6.5 in our TOS).

2. We review the client’s Upwork account because reversing a payment, in most cases, is against our TOS and can result in us permanently suspending their Upwork account.

Aside from these steps, the Upwork team also helps the freelancer or agency challenge the reversal.

Our team can submit a rebuttal to the client’s bank on the freelancer’s behalf if they provide a proof of the work or deliverables. They would need to move quickly, so please provide the requested proof within 48 hours of being notified of the reversal if you’d like us to proceed. Keep in mind that it can take the bank up to 90 days to review and provide their final decision. The client’s bank will have the final say regarding the rebuttal and we have no control over the outcome.

I also already reached out to the team handling your support ticket. If you wish to update the team with new information, I highly suggest that you post it on the ticket thread. Otherwise, please refrain from sending follow-ups on the same ticket thread to make sure the team assists you more efficiently.

[m_terrazas]

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Annie Jane B wrote:

Hi Raj,

This is a difficult situation and I understand your frustration. Some reversals (chargebacks) are a result of the client contacting their bank and asking them to reverse the payment.

In these cases, we look to our Terms of Service (TOS) for guidance and follow it by taking two steps:

1. We seek reimbursement from freelancers/agencies in cases where their client makes a payment, asks their bank to reverse it, and the bank does. (see more detail in sections 6.3-6.5 in our TOS).

2. We review the client’s Upwork account because reversing a payment, in most cases, is against our TOS and can result in us permanently suspending their Upwork account.

Aside from these steps, the Upwork team also helps the freelancer or agency challenge the reversal.

Our team can submit a rebuttal to the client’s bank on the freelancer’s behalf if they provide a proof of the work or deliverables. They would need to move quickly, so please provide the requested proof within 48 hours of being notified of the reversal if you’d like us to proceed. Keep in mind that it can take the bank up to 90 days to review and provide their final decision. The client’s bank will have the final say regarding the rebuttal and we have no control over the outcome.

I also already reached out to the team handling your support ticket. If you wish to update the team with new information, I highly suggest that you post it on the ticket thread. Otherwise, please refrain from sending follow-ups on the same ticket thread to make sure the team assists you more efficiently.

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Hi Annie Jane,

Could you tell me in which cases a chargeback is not against the ToS?

And by the way, can you tell me where I can change the color of the text to highlight what I'm replying to? Before it was there, now, either it isn't or I can't find it.

[kochubei_valeria]

Maria, 

We won't be able to discuss specific or hypothetical situations as they may vary. However, I encourage you to check out sections 6.4 and 6.5 of the TOS which specifically discusses chargeback. 

[raj0kumar00rk]

looks like the upwork support team doing nothing except setting the status as solved in the ticket.
I submitted all chat history and project files that I have within two hours when I received the chargeback notification but I got a reply from upwork after 6-7 hours ( this issue is highly sensitive why support team take 6 hours? ) .?

and  If final judgement will come within 90 days why my account is restricted now?

why upwork is not taking any legal action Like filing an FIR in the client's country?

did you know any people who read the all Terms of Service ?

we trust on upwork you can not just run away from your responsibility.

big power comes with a big responsibility.

[raj0kumar00rk]

today I want to share the hidden trust about so-called upwork (nowadays worst in really ).

FACT 1:

month 1: Assume that I am a client and hired 5 freelancers for 5 projects 5 freelancers did the work and I paid 5000$ after one month I file a reversed chargeback from the bank and I got my money back.

again next month 2 :

I create a new account and hired freelancers to pay the money after the month-end chargeback from the bank.

again next month 3 : repeat from month 1 (you can do your project without even pay 1$. )

FACT 2:

did you know your money is not safe even after 2-3month or 1 year?

FACT 3 :

did you know anytime when you create a support ticket support, the support member is only interested in set the ticket status as solved instead of solving the problem in reality?

[alexandernovikov]

If you will do too many chargebacks, bank will kick you as a client and you will have a problem opening an account anywhere else. Don't think that it comes for free to these people.

[raj0kumar00rk]

in most of the country, users can open multiple accounts in different banks. so just client can use bank alternative way .

[the-right-writer]

You don't understand chargebacks. The thief uses a stolen credit card number. When Upwork checks it out at the beginning, it looks legitimate. After the freelancer does nonsense work or buys something, the card is discovered as stolen. It is the bank that issued the chargeback, not Upwork, that is responsible. The person whose card it was is not going to pay you, and Upwork is not going to give you their money. Unfortunately, many banks are aware of the issue but haven't taken action. There are rare cases where the freelancer wins, but hardly ever.

By the way, I have read almost everything on this site at one time or another. I definitely read the Terms of Service before I even set up a profile. I didn't know if I even wanted to do it because I didn't know how the platform worked. Yep, I read every word of the Terms. Do I have it memorized? Of course not. But I know enough, and if I have questions, I read more, or I can bring my concerns here.

[alexandernovikov]

What could banks probably do in this context? Their clients' CC number was stolen and used by a thief. They will naturally honor the chargeback.

[raj0kumar00rk]

Alexander but in my case cc was not hacked. but also if your cc is hacked you have to do the proper action on time . it don't make sense to file the chargeback action after 2 month.

[the-right-writer]

One thing they can do is improve their software to show the list of people who have said their card was stolen before days have passed. It is not uncommon for multiple charges to be run on the stolen card, and then everyone loses money. They can also improve their tracking of customers who are criminals and repeatedly use stolen cards.

When a bank becomes aware of a fraudulent scheme or pattern of schemes, they have the ability and responsibility to stop it. A big suit or a class action is probably all that will stop this aiding and abetting of crimes. The banks don't care because it is no big deal to them. They don't lose any money.

I'm not just speaking out of hand. I know people in banking that work with the system and work on many bank systems. There are fairly simple ways to drastically reduce the amount of damage done. When you can pay dodge-coin and get credit card numbers off the web, the banks must stop collaborating with the criminals. Until they suffer financially, nothing will change; hence the resolution likely will lie within the legal realm.

[bobafett999]

That is where the problem lies.  I don't belive upwork is doing enough to verify buyer's identity or verifying the credit card.  They may send couple of small charges, and reverse them.  However,  I don't belive they ask the buyer to verify those charges!  

They have 'chosen' not to invest in fraud prevention.   At most they lose their commission.   Freelancer pays most of it anyway.

[the-right-writer]

Upwork is like all businesses when it comes to chargebacks. Most businesses will provide all documentation, their Terms of Service, and why it is a violation of their rules. These efforts have little to nothing to do with the bank's decision.

This is a pendulum swing from the time when businesses were ripping off consumers by doing bait and switch. The banking industry responded by treating the customer as always right, and chargebacks began to grow.

Then the scammers took up the cause with a vengeance. It has taken years to reach the level it is now. Yes, businesses could lobby and try to change the laws and current banking practices. I don't see that happening. Upwork could change their practices, but considering they don't verify an email for clients, that isn't happening either.

Until legal pressure is applied to the banks and businesses, nothing will change. Yes, the freelancer pays the price, which is why nothing is being done. An individual could try and file, but it seems like this is a class action effort. I can find nothing in the upcoming bills from the US federal legislators that address this matter. I have talked to my state reps,, who are clueless that it is a problem. Once informed, it was, "That sounds like an issue with the bank. You should pursue the problem there."

Nothing will change until the banks and businesses suffer more than just angry customere. I see no way to force change other than 1) make the banks acknowledge their role in the situation and make changes, 2) make the businesses acknowledge their role in the situation and make changes, 3) make the judicial system acknowledge their role in the situation and make changes.

Until then, freelancers must do everything possible to protect themselves. In the majority of cases, freelancers break the Terms.

[raj0kumar00rk]

I truly agree with you Prashant.

[7bf5a053]

Facing the same issue I created 2 tickets,  21 hours ago & 2 days ago and still I haven't received a single response from Upwork.  How can someone be too lazy

[m_terrazas]

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Raj K wrote:

looks like the upwork support team doing nothing except setting the status as solved in the ticket.
I submitted all chat history and project files that I have within two hours when I received the chargeback notification but I got a reply from upwork after 6-7 hours ( this issue is highly sensitive why support team take 6 hours? ) .?

and  If final judgement will come within 90 days why my account is restricted now?

why upwork is not taking any legal action Like filing an FIR in the client's country?

did you know any people who read the all Terms of Service ?

we trust on upwork you can not just run away from your responsibility.

big power comes with a big responsibility.

---

I have, and it cost me a lot of suffering. And just like me, many other freelancers who are not lying when they say that they have read them when creating their account.

[pgiambalvo]

You are not protected unless you use the time tracker. Unless the bank reverses the chargeback, and they almost never do, there is no way for you to get the money back and you will have to pay Upwork back.

[raj0kumar00rk]

Peter today this happen to me . in future maybe this can happen to you so please don't keep silent  raise your voice  againt this parcility.

[pgiambalvo]

This can happen to anyone, anytime, unless you use the time tracker for hourly jobs. And for many of us, using it is not an option for the type of work we do. So yes, the risk of not getting paid and not being able to do anything about that is always there and is a part of using Upwork.

[7bf5a053]

The client also allows you to  add manually hours what you have to say about this because Client approves and says you can add manually hours and  it depends on the project for example I do youtube monetization I can add hours manually if I show monetization then  the tricks will be revealed in auto time tracker so First I asked client about manual hours he said you can do it in Conversation  as per his/her request we did plus we can't use automatic time tracker on every job there are some secrets that can't be reveal while doing digital marketing stuff.

[feed_my_eyes]

If the client says that they will allow you to manually add time, then you need to blame the client if they then do a chargeback. If you want Upwork to cover your losses, then you need to follow THEIR rules for payment protection - it doesn't matter what your client says.

[raj0kumar00rk]

every job doesn't have hourly so this is not the solution to use hourly instead of fixed-job.

Assume that you worked on a project and after 2 months upowrk came and say hey I want the money back because I got chargeback requests.  does it make any sense?

upwork has to set the proper limit so if clients want to charge back they can apply only within 7 days.

[yofazza]

> upwork has to set the proper limit

It is beyond their power. Please read again above for explanation about credit card chargeback.

But I agree it's silly however.

[raj0kumar00rk]

Radia but without proper investigation how can they accept the chargeback?
assume that you worked in a company and after two months the company say Hye I want all money back that I paid you.

is this legal?

[yofazza]

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you worked in a company and after two months the company say Hye I want all money back that I paid you

Yes that can happen: https://squareup.com/us/en/townsquare/what-is-a-chargeback-what-makes-it-happen

Upwork has no power. On cases like this the one at loss is usually the seller. You're the seller not Upwork.

Upwork however attempt to please "sellers" by providing payment protection  which means they will pay "the seller" with their own money in cases like this, but not without implementing a set of flexible rules.

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proper investigation

I don't know how banks do the investigations but I believe it's easy to get chargebacks on internet transactions. Card will be blocked etc. but you don't have to pay.

[yofazza]

Here's a quick overview of the chargeback process:

1. The buyer requests a chargeback from their credit card company.
2. The credit card company notifies our merchant bank and withdraws the funds from PayPal.
3. We place a hold on your (the seller’s) funds related to the chargeback.
4. We immediately notify you via email and request information that could help to dispute the chargeback.

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There I pasted the process.

PayPal I believe is a financial institution so it's above Upwork on financial matters but they still can't simply deny or investigate any chargebacks themselves. And they can't stop banks from taking money away.

[raj0kumar00rk]

Radia PayPal will cover all losses whenever a chargeback request is submitted. PayPal is not the same as upwork, who runs away from its responsibility.

here you can check : https://www.paypal.com/dm/webapps/mpp/security/resolve-disputes

[yofazza]

It's hard to respond when you tell me to look at a page that is supposed to support your claim, but it's not 😁

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[raj0kumar00rk]

 image 1 : PayPal wil cover all loses ( image 1)

image 2: how PayPal payment protection works

sources .

https://www.paypal.com/dm/webapps/mpp/security/resolve-disputes

https://www.paypal.com/in/webapps/mpp/paypal-seller-protection

[7bf5a053]

I agreed. Upwork is becoming Worst day by day.  The client is doing an Hourly Basis project with me regarding YouTube channels I have done his job and my work in progress showed 1400$ after that even Client accepted the job rated me 5 stars and ended the contract on Monday he will get an invoice to pay me what if he will use a fake debit card and I freelancer will receive nothing but that client has completed his work  & now I'm in the loss while Upwork will do nothing in this regard! What Upwork will do is only bank the account of the client but he will come with a new account and will keep scamming freelancers like us. What a shame 

[raj0kumar00rk]

Yes Ali if upwork failed from the froud detection they should cover the losses ( since this is totally upwork falt why it not detected the scam ? ).

upwork can't run from their responsibility. 

[7bf5a053]

You're wrong Paypal put a hold on the account and notify us and they do their best to help us in this regard we are on the right side we get our payment back not like Upwork they are too lazy to respond I created a ticket 2 days ago and ask the community about a question and guess what I got no response what so ever.

[the-right-writer]

I have been through this process, as I wrote in another post. Being polite and giving you the documentation you have a legal right to see is not doing anything to help you. Paypal, like any regular business, hates the chargebacks too because it messes with their business. Time, cranky sellers and or buyers, banks, paperwork... they don't want this either. The business has no leverage over the financial institution. I have read the laws governing chargebacks, and I know what the process is and exactly what the business can or cannot do in a chargeback situation. Paypal can be supportive - but it does not affect the bank. Paypal did not get your money back. The bank ruled in your favor. You are misinterpreting Paypal supporting you verbally and legally.

It does take a bit for Support to get back to people. Yes, it is frustrating, but you are not alone. Everyone has to wait. You can also post in the "support" group.

No business can get money back in a chargeback - no business. The law in the United States does not mandate that, nor is there any way for a business to legally get the money. It is all about the bank. If you do business anywhere believing that the business is going to take care of you, especially with a chargeback, you are going to lose money or more.

[yofazza]

You don't hold onto a sentence without understanding the context. PayPal Seller Protection has its terms and conditions. Upwork also has it, as I wrote above:

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Upwork however attempt to please "sellers" by providing payment protection which means they will pay "the seller" with their own money in cases like this, but not without implementing a set of flexible rules.

You don't accept when your money "refunded" and blame Upwork. I tried to explain that it's not a refund, but a "taken back" by the bank. It's beyond Upwork's power, and even beyond PayPal's although they can be considered a financial institution (again, PayPal does not cover all loss - please don't just read a single sentence).

I don't have a solution for this problem other than banning the use of credit cards. It's the bank's money, not the customer's, that's why it's easier for it to be charged-back.

[raj0kumar00rk]

Radia I know paypal have term and condition but they cover the losses if you (seller ) is right .

and it not just a context its a rule that's why seller can use without werry about chargeback.

[the-right-writer]

Paypal does not offer protection against a chargeback. I helped someone who had this problem. They were 100% rated as the seller. Paypal will give you documentation on the case but offer no support. Paypal has terms of service and additional rules that protect both buyer and seller. It took four months to get the whole thing sorted out, and the seller finally won. The seller declared it wasn't worth the long, drawn-out process and the disruption to their business because they couldn't withdraw funds.
With the flood of scams, you must protect yourself - no one else will. Learn the rules, read the forum, and it is highly unlikely you will be scammed. For chargebacks, all you can do is bring all the documentation and keep pushing the case. To protect yourself, use the automatic hourly tracker or set up small milestones if you work fixed price contracts because it limits how much money you can lose. There are tens if not hundreds of thousands of freelancers on the site. Very few are ever scammed.

[sparkesusan]

This thread is getting quite long. From what I see you would spend a bunch of time here rather than looking for work. I had a chargeback a while ago. Many of us have had this happen. Oh well, sometimes you just need to move on. There are an overwhelming number of clients who don't do this and are honest people. So, my advice is, set it aside and move ahead. 

[tomzilla1]

I've lost money in similar situations before. My advice: just move on, if you can deduct as a business loss, do so on your taxes. From my understanding Upwork will reverse if the client chargesback, and there's nothing you can do about it.

[raj0kumar00rk]

we should fight against this parcility if upwork take 20% from each project . they are totally responsible for cover the losses.