Re: This is truly sad... - Page 2

bundie702 · ‎02-20-2019

Someone in Liverpool, England just posted this ad. I can hardly believe what they are asking for vs. what they are paying.

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**edited for Community Guidelines**
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Can you BELIEVE that? $5 for what will likely be at least 3 hours worth of work and very possibly more (of which Upwork will take 20%)? The really sad part is that than 5-10 people have applied.

I usually shrug off these low-paid jobs, but this is so incredible I just had to comment on it. How desperate can people be to be willing to work for $1.50 an hour or less. This is truly sad.

mtngigi · ‎02-27-2019

@wendy_writes wrote:
I agree with Kim. Settting a $50 minimum on jobs reflects a more professional aspect that I would think U wanrts and needs to develop.

This is even more true in light of the announcement of Upwork Plus for Clients (see here:
https://community.upwork.com/t5/Announcements/Introducing-Upwork-Plus-for-Clients/td-p/567998)

It is tantamount to impossible to create the image of competency that large corporations demand while allowing $1 or $5 jobs. It is equally impossible to retain top tier freelancers when stabbing them in the back as per full details in the link above.

Thank you for stating things much better than I did, Wendy. Glad someone understands where I'm coming from.

jr-translation · ‎02-27-2019

Kim F wrote:
Apart from anything else, a more sensible minimum (though I would prefer $50) would immediately raise the perceived standard of Upwork as higher than those other places that instantly spring to mind. My mind boggles at the thought that Upwork prefers not to try to attract people who are prepared to spend more money...

If Upwork would be interested to raise the standard, they would:

use better test,
take a closer look at the freelancers self-attested qualification,
get rid of all these freelancers looking for some easy money.

Once you improve the quality provided by the freelancers you can aim for higher rates as well.

jr-translation · ‎02-27-2019

Virginia F wrote:
Jennifer R wrote:
Virginia F wrote:
Preston H wrote:
A $5.00 minimum is fine.

There are jobs I'll do for $5.00.

If Upwork allows this freedom to freelancers, it doesn't mean you need to do jobs for that amount. You can establish any mininum you want for yourself.
No ... it's not fine. You make enough $ that you can afford to work for free once in awhile (because when all is said and done, it is essentially working for free). And you know as well as I do that most people who take those jobs are being taken advantage of - they end up being way more than a $5 job. But more than anything, I do not understand how UW is not embarrassed to allow such jobs.
It depends on the amount of work. I have a regular client that need translation with max 80 words every now and then. It takes less then 5 minutes but it is a new contract everytime and I just crossed the $100 line. I always celebrate a completed job and sometimes these translations cheer me up when I really need it.
You and Preston both are missing my point, so I'll give up. Yes, $5 is fine, and what's also fine is how much is left after Upwork's fees and self-employment taxes. Yeah, that's just fine.

I am not missing your point. It is a difference if a client offers 1ct or 7 ct per word. 1ct is not ok but happens all the time. As long as freelancers agree to these low rates and clients do not care about the consequences of a poor translation you can discuss as much as you like without reaching a conclusion. You do not have to agree to take on small jobs but you cannot exclude serious clients only because they have small jobs as well.

kfarnell · ‎02-27-2019

There is a difference between adding a nominal amount for a milestone and pricing a project at the same amount. You already have an established relationship with an ongoing project and much less time and effort are expended for the money. Even if a 'new' contract occurs each time, that is still not the same as starting a contract with a new client. I still think $5 is too low, but it's clearly worth more in those circumstances.

And small jobs do not have to equate to peanuts jobs.

(Edited to add): 'Once you improve the quality provided by the freelancers you can aim for higher rates as well.'

Chicken and egg situation. You could equally say 'once you raise the rates you can aim for higher quality freelancers'.

bmhumphreys · ‎02-27-2019

Alas, I feel I have so much to like about UpWork, and so much to rage toward at the same time. When I first started out, (only half a year ago), I was taking any small job I could get, because, while I had the education, I didn't have a portfolio. Once I got a few articles under my belt - which, yes, were worth way more in time and content than what I was paid for them - I was able to start successfully bidding for jobs with higher rates. (Not that I've had that many, but...) I think that's okay if UpWork wants to be open to newbie freelancers developing their skills here. Now I try to avoid those low paying clients, and I'm finding plenty of other postings out there with reasonable rates. Now if I could just get those junk contracts off my record so my JSS would go back up... but that was another rant.

Anyway, I would probably like to see a higher minimum, but I liked what you originally said, Kim: "Apart from anything else, a more sensible minimum (though I would prefer $50) would immediately raise the perceived standard of Upwork as higher than those other places that instantly spring to mind. My mind boggles at the thought that Upwork prefers not to try to attract people who are prepared to spend more money..."

I really want this platform to work, but between all that I'm reading lately - FLs being suspended for too proposal/hire ratio, this client plus nonsense, and the fee system (not that I have to pay fees, just that they act like they're not making most of their money from us), and my latest experience with JSS - I'm really starting to question it.

BTW, since my invitations have all but dried up (I'm guessing due to the JSS), I've bid for nearly 40 jobs in the past week or so (all of which match my skills and qualifications). I really hope I get a couple of them so I don't get kicked off.

Edit/Update: Got four great (IMO) jobs (one with a previous client) just this morning. I love UpWork again. Until I hate them again... 🙂

Ps. I actually took my concern to CS regarding the "sending too many proposals" issue, and they told me I was safe because I still had two open contracts... if I hadn't had any open, however, it may have been an issue - that was the implication. So, beware on that one, everyone. Make sure that if you're doing what I just did and spend three solid days just spendin' up those connects, that you still have some work open, or, if you don't, that you only send out proposals you're pretty sure you're gonna land. Also, thanks for the kudos. 😄

luce-neidert · ‎02-28-2019

Well, Brandon, apart from your JSS, your profile looks very good, with excellent feedback. I wouldn't despair, chances are many clients won't even notice your JSS.

I have been having a hard time getting new clients lately, and I guess it's mostly because we are too many on the platform - and many of us are ready to work for nearly nothing to get the jobs. I like getting the Freelancer Plus membership just to get an idea of what others are bidding, and there are always weirdos offering to do a huge amount of work for peanuts. They probably don't get the jobs, but the clients get the idea that we are a crowd of beggars ready to do anything for a few dollars. It's pitiful.

I think we should all fight that, for example when we have extra connects, just use them to send messages to clients proposing unacceptable rates to explain to them why these are unacceptable. Just let them think about our real life, about things like Upwork's cut, what we pay to banks to have dollars changed to euros (I live in France) and the taxes we pay in our countries.

Many clients seem to think of freelancers as virtual commodities, with no real life.

kfarnell · ‎02-28-2019

I assume your suggestion was tongue in cheek and hopefully no-one will take it literally.

Harassing people about their proposed budget when you're not even interested in the project would only add to the perception too many clients have that freelancers here are unprofessional with the people skills of a pot plant.

luce-neidert · ‎02-28-2019

Kim F wrote:
I assume your suggestion was tongue in cheek and hopefully no-one will take it literally.

Harassing people about their proposed budget when you're not even interested in the project would only add to the perception too many clients have that freelancers here are unprofessional with the people skills of a pot plant.

luce-neidert · ‎03-01-2019

Luce N wrote:
Kim F wrote:
I assume your suggestion was tongue in cheek and hopefully no-one will take it literally.

Harassing people about their proposed budget when you're not even interested in the project would only add to the perception too many clients have that freelancers here are unprofessional with the people skills of a pot plant.

Kim, this is not a tongue in cheek suggestion. We are dealing with a serious matter. These people are probably breaking the laws of their countries by hiring at rock bottom price, since most civilized countries have minimum wage laws.

I would not harass people, I would just explain things to them. For example, if they have a history of hiring at $5, $10 dollars, I would explain to them that it is not in their interest to continue doing so as only desperate freelancers will answer their offer, and they may not be qualified to do their job, or worse still, they may be planning a scam.

I would then tell them that I might be interested in doing their job and what I would consider to be a fair deal for it.

I'm a kind person, and I believe in sharing advice.

kfarnell · ‎03-01-2019

> These people are probably breaking the laws of their countries by hiring at rock bottom price, since most civilized countries have minimum wage laws.

Minimum wage laws do not apply to freelance workers. And a number of 'civilised' countries do not have a minimum wage, for example, Sweden. No laws are being broken.

> I would not harass people, I would just explain things to them.

Which they may regard as harassment. Distasteful though the low rates are, the client isn't technically doing anything wrong and may well have got what they want for their money before. Chances are that they're also intelligent enough to realise precisely what they're doing.

> For example, if they have a history of hiring at $5, $10 dollars, I would explain to them that it is not in their interest to continue doing so as only desperate freelancers will answer their offer, and they may not be qualified to do their job, or worse still, they may be planning a scam.

Given that the internet contains loads of advice suggesting that starting out on Upwork entails charging low rates, low bidding freelancers may be guilty of nothing more than following bad advice. Even if they are desperate, that doesn't necessarily mean they are con artists or unskilled.

The low rates are, of course, unreasonable and can even be seen as abusive. At best, they are often insulting. But the culture here is created by Upwork itself. Unless and until Upwork raises the minimum rates and encourages spending at a higher level, people will continue to offer derisory rates.

Upwork could choose to promote proven quality freelancers; offer incentives to successful freelancers to stay on-platform/bring in more work; use satisfied clients who pay professional rates for quality work as part of their promotion; market itself as superior to other sites because here you can find true proven professionals unlike on other platforms where it's a race to the bottom and several other things. They could have a premium side (whilst retaining lower rate projects if they wanted) and promote themselves as the only large online platform that does this. They could acknowledge that a lot of money is made from individuals with one-off projects and not everyone here is a corporation or SME and they could cater better to those individuals.

Upwork could do a lot of things that would not only enhance their reputation but would also attract more money, for them and us. Without them doing things like this, we can't do more than what you say below.

> I would then tell them that I might be interested in doing their job and what I would consider to be a fair deal for it.

luce-neidert · ‎03-01-2019

Well Kim, thanks for taking the time to give your point of view. I must admit that I agree with many of the things you say, however I don't call working for a pittance freelancing, it's just being taken advantage of. I live in a country were "uberisation" is not encouraged, and I'm glad about that. To me, it is morally wrong to take advantage of others, that's all.

wendy_writes · ‎02-28-2019

Too time consuming, Luce. And futile. Educate the buyers you want to turn into your clients. That's all who count.

Without a quasi-professional job cost minimum + improved screening / vetting of FLers (U is working on this) + purging the site of years long dormant accounts - buyers will never perceive U as a truly professional marketplace.

As always, I get that U. believes a large number of potential talent on tap for buyers to select from is a plus but U. seems to negate that in total by limiting invites to 3.

Just my rant for the morning. 🙂

luce-neidert · ‎03-01-2019

Wendy C wrote:
Too time consuming, Luce. And futile. Educate the buyers you want to turn into your clients. That's all who count.

Without a quasi-professional job cost minimum + improved screening / vetting of FLers (U is working on this) + purging the site of years long dormant accounts - buyers will never perceive U as a truly professional marketplace.

As always, I get that U. believes a large number of potential talent on tap for buyers to select from is a plus but U. seems to negate that in total by limiting invites to 3.

Just my rant for the morning. 🙂

Doesn't have to be a time consuming thing, I can have a sort of template to save time. And who knows, once "educated" these people may want to hire me.

How do you know that U is working on screening / vetting FLers? That's great news.

If U. truly believes that a large number of potential talent on tap for buyers to select from is such a good thing, U. should say so to the clients that have been scammed or that have hired someone for cheap and regretted their choice... and see how the clients take it.

jr-translation · ‎03-01-2019

Luce N wrote:
Wendy C wrote:
Too time consuming, Luce. And futile. Educate the buyers you want to turn into your clients. That's all who count.

Without a quasi-professional job cost minimum + improved screening / vetting of FLers (U is working on this) + purging the site of years long dormant accounts - buyers will never perceive U as a truly professional marketplace.

As always, I get that U. believes a large number of potential talent on tap for buyers to select from is a plus but U. seems to negate that in total by limiting invites to 3.

Just my rant for the morning. 🙂

Doesn't have to be a time consuming thing, I can have a sort of template to save time. And who knows, once "educated" these people may want to hire me.

How do you know that U is working on screening / vetting FLers? That's great news.

If U. truly believes that a large number of potential talent on tap for buyers to select from is such a good thing, U. should say so to the clients that have been scammed or that have hired someone for cheap and regretted their choice... and see how the clients take it.

I created at one point a template regarding fiction translation and some DOs and DON'Ts for clients looking for translators. Most clients have no idea and believe that the translators have to be good if they are top rated. I stopped counting the jobs I got out of that list. I used the template outside UW as well linking to my UW profile for reference and landed a job at a publisher. They want full-time but I would go crazy doing only fiction.

I would love for UW to have the freelancers checked but I really hope they ignore the test results.

luce-neidert · ‎03-01-2019

Jennifer R wrote:
I would love for UW to have the freelancers checked but I really hope they ignore the test results.

Me too, or they should take the time to change the tests very often as you can find the results on YouTube.

wendy_writes · ‎03-01-2019

Brava @ Kim for "Upwork could choose to promote proven quality freelancers; offer incentives to successful freelancers to stay on-platform/bring in more work; use satisfied clients who pay professional rates for quality work as part of their promotion; market itself as superior to other sites because here you can find true proven professionals unlike on other platforms where it's a race to the bottom and several other things. They could have a premium side (whilst retaining lower rate projects if they wanted) and promote themselves as the only large online platform that does this. They could acknowledge that a lot of money is made from individuals with one-off projects and not everyone here is a corporation or SME and they could cater better to those individuals."

From your lips to decision makers' ears. If only it were so easy.

luce-neidert · ‎03-01-2019

Wendy C wrote:
Brava @ Kim for "Upwork could choose to promote proven quality freelancers; offer incentives to successful freelancers to stay on-platform/bring in more work; use satisfied clients who pay professional rates for quality work as part of their promotion; market itself as superior to other sites because here you can find true proven professionals unlike on other platforms where it's a race to the bottom and several other things. They could have a premium side (whilst retaining lower rate projects if they wanted) and promote themselves as the only large online platform that does this. They could acknowledge that a lot of money is made from individuals with one-off projects and not everyone here is a corporation or SME and they could cater better to those individuals."

From your lips to decision makers' ears. If only it were so easy.

I guess discussing about it on the forum is one of the ways we can make this idea become reality.

wendy_writes · ‎03-01-2019

Luce, don't hold your breathe ..... 😞

bmhumphreys · ‎03-01-2019

Luce, I was thinking of doing something similar to your original suggestion (though much more passive-aggressive) regarding hourly rates. I've finally decided on what I think is a fair hourly rate for my services and have put it on my profile. I hate that I have to post an hourly rate, because, for some jobs, the work involved is less strenuous than others, so a flat rate doesn't always make sense to me. I wish UW would give me the option to at least set an hourly rate range, or just say "varies." or just let me hide it (since I pay for premium). But my other idea was to just set my profile hourly rate to $1,000,000, and then begin every proposal with the words "I'm bidding for this job at a SUBSTANTIAL discount from my normal hourly rate..."

No, I'm not going to do it, but I did have a couple of other things I'd like to point out that are relevant to this thread:

1. I posted a job as a client a few days ago for a marketing expert to help me with my strategy - just writing a simple report. Believe me when I say that I am dirt-poor by U.S. standards right now, and I don't have a lot to spend, but I thought about how long it would take me to do the job that I was asking for and I offered $50. I only got three bids on it, two were obvious pros who'd been at it for a while. One bid my budget, and the other $62.50 (which, I would have paid if I thought he would have been that much better than the others). Then I got another proposal from a newbie. His cover letter was literally one sentence - "I would do this for free."

Now, me being a FL myself and believing that one should be paid for the work they do, of course I didn't accept that. I could have sent this person a message yelling at him for offering free work, but I saw that he's literally brand new and doesn't have any work yet, and is really probably just trying to get some experience. So, instead, I created a new, low budget job specifically for this FL that was basically asking for a MUCH simpler analysis (appropriate to what I perceived his skill level to be) for $15. (In my offer to him I explained that he should never, ever, ever offer to do work for free) This was last night. When I woke up this morning, the work was in my inbox. It was exactly what I paid for, and I gave him five stars.

I then hired the $50 bidder for the original job because I think he'll do the best job of the three of them and I want his analysis.

2. One of the jobs I was offered yesterday, from a former client, once I started to look at what would be required of me, was really not worth the budget the client had set up - for me. That's because it was an assignment to write about political stuff I knew nothing about, and put a slightly conservative spin on it (which makes me cringe to think my name would be on it). So, even though I know that taking that job would have helped me get my JSS score back up more quickly (repeat client), I sent a message back to the client politely explaining that, for what he's offering, I would have to do too much research to justify the project. I also explained that the work I did for him in the past - which was similar in word count and budget - was much easier for me to write and took less time than this particular project would take for me, and respectfully asked that he keep me in mind if he has other jobs more like the ones I previously did for him.

You guys can all make of this what you will - pick apart what I did right and what I did wrong - but here's what I think I've come away with: When you're starting out, you need to build your portfolio, and you shouldn't be paid expert rates for that work when you haven't proven yourself an expert yet; but you should at least be paid, for Pete's sake! There are always going to be bottom feeders in the pond, I fear, but it's up to each of us to operate with integrity and in a manner that's consistent with our own values. For me, for now - I feel I've settled on a fair hourly rate, and I am going to be much more selective about the jobs for which I bid. I swear by all that is holy, though, if my JSS doesn't go back up this week after all of the work I've done lately to fix it, I'm gonna have a meltdown. I want my Top Rated badge back, d&#n it!

Edit: Grammar 🙂

luce-neidert · ‎03-01-2019

Brandon, I just love your other idea "... was to just set my profile hourly rate to $1,000,000, and then begin every proposal with the words "I'm bidding for this job at a SUBSTANTIAL discount from my normal hourly rate...".

I really hope you'll get your Top Rated badge soon, but you know how strange that JSS algorythm is... no way of telling what it decides to do next! We have to be patient with that creature.

wendy_writes · ‎03-01-2019

Brandon, kudos to you for your honesty and integrity in your response to the past client. FWIW, I'm betting he/she appreciated it and will reach out to you in the future. Sadly, honesty is a scarce commodity...

bmhumphreys · ‎03-01-2019

Wendy C wrote:
Brandon, kudos to you for your honesty and integrity in your response to the past client. FWIW, I'm betting he/she appreciated it and will reach out to you in the future. Sadly, honesty is a scarce commodity...

Thanks, Wendy. I hope so, too. And yes, honesty is a scarce commodity. I often don't understand why we just don't say what we mean (see my previous rants on "private feedback"). It is so much easier on everyone if you just say exactly what you expect and what you mean in professional matters.

jr-translation · ‎03-01-2019

I received an invite the other day to translate into Swedish. I decliend choosing I am not fit for the job and 2 minutes later the client invited me again asking why I declined the invitation. I explained that it was because I am no native Swedish. Her reply: Thanks for being so ethical and professional

I was smiling for the rest of the day.

julesroni · ‎03-20-2019

It is truly sad. Nevertheless this is a free market place. The best thing to do is not apply for these low rates. They will not go away since the cost of posting jobs on Upwork is probably $0.00. Simply let the market sought this out.
Upwork employs smart people and they clearly see no detriment to their platform with these types of clear low-balling job offers. Maybe they are correct in this assessment. It does make the Upwork environment seem less appealing to skilled freelancers who take pride in their work. But ultimately, this makes no difference to the bottom line of the platform. The platform is subject to algorithms and rules that play out purely deterministic results. This is simply another example.

geraldine_f · ‎03-30-2019

I agree and I am even more angry at those who accept to work at that rate. I often spoil my Connects to tell those slave seekers how ashamed they should be. Have you noticed ? The less they pay, the more they are exacting.....